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Tired of all the political strife and infighting?
Find out how Christians are supposed to act in the following study
https://christianforums.net/threads/charismatic-bible-studies-1-peter-2-11-17.109823/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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A question for those who claim tongues for today.
- Thread starter Dave...
- Start date
I
Imagican
Guest
Jeff Mills said:
The book of Acts was NOT MEANT to be 'followed'. We are to 'follow' Christ TO His Father THROUGH The Spirit. The BOOK ITSELF is our food and a 'guide' to discernment. But MOST Of what is offered in Acts is an HISTORICAL account of the formation of THE CHURCH. That is PAST. We are to CARRY on in the FAITH. NOT start OVER as in the book of Acts.
And it's The Church that MATTERS, not churches. Place your faith IN CHRIST and leave those that follow men and churches to 'this world'.
Please, don't misunderstand me. I am WELL aware of the 'nature' of the 'churches'. Yet it's NOT the churches themselves, but the WAY in which they choose to WORSHIP and WHAT. 'Man-made' theology is NOTHING more than that......... The Spirit transcends this for those that 'truly' open their hearts to It. And these ARE those that MOST will NEVER understand or even accept. For these are NOT about 'their OWN glory' but that of the Father and His Son.
So, where in The Word is it even offered that there IS a form of tongues 'other than' other languages? A line or two misinterpreted that CAN be 'made', (by men), to mean what 'they' choose for it to mean?
I have 'heard' the arguments. I have 'seen' the results. I have found the 'words' and teachings lacking in ANY scriptural basis. And I have found that those that DO speak in tongues do so 'differently' than we have been instructed. And I will easily SHOW, through The Spirit, understanding that ANYONE is able to grasp if they so choose to follow The Word instead of 'other men'. For it is IMPOSSIBLE to do that which one HAS been instructed by doing that which contradicts The Word. And it is NOT personal interpretation that matters, it is discernment THROUGH The Spirit, NOT a spirit.
MEC
Gabbylittleangel
Member
1Cr 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
and yet...they continue to try...
and yet...they continue to try...
Jeff Mills
Member
Imagicen I do not find it necessary to continue with you on this matter as you say you have been there before! That is okay. Your going to heaven and so am I. So we agree to disagree, but my whole ministry is learning to live in the spirit daily so as I can lay hands on the sick and see them ehaled. You see, here in Guatemala they cannot even afford a doctor let alone medicine, so their faith is high to seeeing miracles. God gets all the glory. Many times when I pray in tongues I can carry on for a long time and the presence of God is with me. We are spirit-filled Christians and have the SAME Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. Tongues have not finished and I beleive you are missing out on a lot what God wants to shwo you. You do realize that we are Spirit-beings?
Jeff Mills
Member
imgicen, can you tell me if you believe the gifts of th Spirit are for today?
I
Imagican
Guest
Jeff, Mutz,
I don't know how to give a 'cut and dry' answer to these types of questions. But I will do my best.
I KNOW what scripture states concerning the gifts. I also know that The Bible states that without 'charity' NONE of the 'gifts' are of ANY positive effect and that Charity IS the MOST important aspect of being 'A CHRISTIAN'. And I KNOW that the Bible states that where there ARE tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE. It is NOT specific concerning the 'time' of their 'ending', but it IS specific in that they WILL. And of ALL the 'gifts', tongues is the LEAST 'desirable'. For we ALSO have, in The Word, that tongues offer LITTLE in edification. And SELF edification could be little other than 'self-love', (not a BAD thing so long as one love their neighbor AS WELL AS themselves).
And guys, there is MUCH written in scripture, STATED TO 'particular' people or AT particular people that MANY NOW would indicate was directed AT US as well. I can guarantee you that EVERYTHING in The Word is NOT there for US to 'partake'. Instruction and understanding? YES. But to understand does NOT necessarily mean that we can or will DO that which others have. The epistles written by Paul WERE written to PARTICULAR PEOPLE and for PARTICULAR REASONS. We are CERTAINLY able to LEARN from these. BUT, it cannot be denied that one is NOT EVEN ABLE to UNDERSTAND the WHY of there even BEING given to US without taking into to consideration WHY they were given to those that they WERE. Paul's letters were NOT written SPECIFICALLY 'to US'. They were written to PARTICULAR PEOPLE for a PARTICUAL REASON for US to be able to LEARN from them. NOT emulate them.
EVERY indication that I have gathered, through The Word, CONCERNING tongues POINTS to tongues having a 'REASON'. To discern what tongues are and their usage, FIRST one NEEDS to understand WHAT they were for and what they TRULY WERE.
Other than a 'couple' of 'CRYPTIC' LINES of scripture, The Word explains EXACTLY WHAT tongues ARE. And these CRYPTIC lines do NOT indicate to me that there ARE ANY OTHER 'tongues' than what was 'brought about' upon Petacost in the beginning of ACTS.
Mutz, Jeff, please understand, ALL I know is WHAT I know. That I could be or AM wrong is CERTAINLY a 'posibility' EVEN to myself. BUT, I can offer that I have been 'led' to MANY personal Bible studies. What conclusions I have gathered through these studies is NOT just 'wishful thinking'. For I have NO desire to 'manipulate scripture' to MY understanding. Previous to my accepting Christ into my heart, I HAD NO UNDERSTANDING except that of this world.
I will 'condemn NO ONE' for their use or non-use of tongues. But I certainly feel OBLIGATED to offer 'my neighbors' the CLOSEST thing that I CAN to The Truth. MOST of what has been 'offered' through The Word concerning tongues is contained with Corinthians. And guys, MOST of what is offered in these letters IS REBUKE concerning MISUSE of tongues. Paul was CERTAINLY a VERY HUMBLE and PATIENT guy. He didn't want to 'turn the Corinthians AWAY' from The Church. His fear of them 'separating' in The Faith put HIM in a position that he couldn't REALLY chastise them without the fear of their 'falling FURTHER' away from The Truth.
But, he DID 'try' his BEST to; instead of TELLING them what they were doing that was COMPLETELY WRONG, he told them 'what was RIGHT TO DO'. Instead of telling them 'tongues DON'T exist the WAY you are USING them' he simply explained the PROPER use of tongues. I don't know if you can follow me on this but that what I offer is truth is without doubt once one is able to put aside that which would INTERFERE with it.
Back to the 'What' WERE tongues. Tongues were ALSO known as 'unknown' languages. NOT unknown to ANYBODY, for they WERE languages. Unknown to the ONE given utterance. UNLEARNED so far as carnal instruction. But GIVEN, as a 'gift' to those commissioned with the FORMATION of The Church. The IGNORANT Gallileans that were GIVEN this titanical task NEEDED all the HELP they could get. And God offered it through the Holy Spirit. Through GIFTS needed in order to extablish The Church. Tongues were the LEAST 'desirable', (or SHOULD have been), for ONE reason; They WERE NEEDED for 'a time'. For the time it took to FIRMLY establish AT LEAST a REMNANT. AT least long enough for The Church to be established firmly enough so that it COULD NOT BE COMPLETELY DISTROYED. And we WERE told that TONGUES WOULD CEASE. Do you HONESTLY believe that the ANSWER to this 'tongues' question CAN NOT be answered? Do you HONESTLY believe that NO ONE has been granted THE ANSWER in TRUTH?
Mutz, I have personally WITNESSED The Spirit working through your words and wisdom. If you say that you have 'spoken in tongues' I am forced to accept it. I cannot deny that with God ANYTHING is possible. I KNOW that 'tongues' existed and in this respect they DO exist. We certainly have the Word offering that there WERE those that were given this 'gift'. But I know that YOU know as well, that this that I say next IS A FACT; God KNOWS what is contained within YOUR heart and mine. He KNOWS. He KNOWS what YOU need as well as what I NEED BETTER than WE OURSELVES know. With these FACTS in mind and in one's heart, I am left with this QUESTION: WHAT NEED would ANYONE have for an UNKNOWN language that did NOT edify OTHERS? For our God IS a God of LOVE. And THAT IS REAL LOVE. And as ANYONE that has even the 'slightest INKLING' concerning love, anyone that has experienced the slightest TASTE of it, they KNOW that ""LOVE IS GIVING"", NOT taking.
Do tongues exist? They CERTAINLY DID. Do they exist now? Mutz, I do NOT believe that you would LIE to me so I MUST ACCEPT that they MUST. Have I personally witnessed their usage? NO. NOT in ANY way that has ANY significant PURPOSE. And 'trust me' folks, I do NOT deny tongues through envy or jealousy. I DO love my brothers and sisters and would encourage ANYTHING that I could percieve as being to 'their BENEFIT'. But, at the same time, I have the SAME obligation to warn them of those 'things' that MAY not be expedient in their 'walk'.
The tongues that I have PERSONALLY witnessed were NOT the 'tongues' spoken of in The Word. Perhaps God has a 'reason' for 'hiding them' from ME. Can't say. But I CAN say with ALL assurdness that the 'tongues' that I have personally witnessed are NOT 'of God'. And I 'think' one can CLEARLY SEE that I have MADE every effort within my capabilty to OFFER just THAT; I ONLY KNOW what I KNOW. And have PLAINLY stated that which I understand. I have NOT EVER stated that tongues DO NOT EXIST, or HAVE NOT existed. I have simply tried to offer my experiences and what has been revealed to me through scripture AND The Spirit.
And ANY tongues that do NOT follow the 'guidelines' as laid down by Paul CAN'T be true tongues. NOT unless PAUL was wrong. For tongues CANNOT be uttered EXCEPT AS THE SPIRIT GIVES UTTERANCE. The ONLY tongues that I have personally witnessed had NOTHING to do with The Spirit. Mutz, don't you believe, even JUST a little bit, that I could recognize The Spirit?
You offer that you have personally spoken in tongues. I do NOT deny this in ANY WAY. But with ALL the 'false tongues' or 'tongues from a 'different' source' there is little that one could fault me in my scepticism. For there ARE MANY spirits that exist.
And in closing, CHARITY is the 'gift' that is to BE paramount. That is what we MUST CHERISH. That is what we MUST SEEK. The 'other gifts' mean NOTHING without FIRST having come to an UNDERSTANDING Of Charity; LOVE. And we ARE to 'seek out' the MOST IMPORTANT. We are to DESIRE the MOST IMPORTANT. And without the MOST important FIRST, there is LITTLE doubt in my mind or heart that those 'secondary or tertiary gifts' are NOT obtainable without that which IS MOST important being obtained FIRST.
Jeff, I reread my post directed at yours. Forgive me brother, for I certainly did come off a 'bit harsh'. Perhaps I misinterpreted your offering. I apologize and ask for you to forgive a 'silly old man' for his lack of humility and 'briming over passion'. There is MUCH that I have yet to 'have changed' within me and this I willingly admit. Letting go of this 'old man' is NOT an EASY thing to do. But, with hope, charity and FAITH, it's just a MATTER OF TIME.
MEC
I don't know how to give a 'cut and dry' answer to these types of questions. But I will do my best.
I KNOW what scripture states concerning the gifts. I also know that The Bible states that without 'charity' NONE of the 'gifts' are of ANY positive effect and that Charity IS the MOST important aspect of being 'A CHRISTIAN'. And I KNOW that the Bible states that where there ARE tongues, THEY SHALL CEASE. It is NOT specific concerning the 'time' of their 'ending', but it IS specific in that they WILL. And of ALL the 'gifts', tongues is the LEAST 'desirable'. For we ALSO have, in The Word, that tongues offer LITTLE in edification. And SELF edification could be little other than 'self-love', (not a BAD thing so long as one love their neighbor AS WELL AS themselves).
And guys, there is MUCH written in scripture, STATED TO 'particular' people or AT particular people that MANY NOW would indicate was directed AT US as well. I can guarantee you that EVERYTHING in The Word is NOT there for US to 'partake'. Instruction and understanding? YES. But to understand does NOT necessarily mean that we can or will DO that which others have. The epistles written by Paul WERE written to PARTICULAR PEOPLE and for PARTICULAR REASONS. We are CERTAINLY able to LEARN from these. BUT, it cannot be denied that one is NOT EVEN ABLE to UNDERSTAND the WHY of there even BEING given to US without taking into to consideration WHY they were given to those that they WERE. Paul's letters were NOT written SPECIFICALLY 'to US'. They were written to PARTICULAR PEOPLE for a PARTICUAL REASON for US to be able to LEARN from them. NOT emulate them.
EVERY indication that I have gathered, through The Word, CONCERNING tongues POINTS to tongues having a 'REASON'. To discern what tongues are and their usage, FIRST one NEEDS to understand WHAT they were for and what they TRULY WERE.
Other than a 'couple' of 'CRYPTIC' LINES of scripture, The Word explains EXACTLY WHAT tongues ARE. And these CRYPTIC lines do NOT indicate to me that there ARE ANY OTHER 'tongues' than what was 'brought about' upon Petacost in the beginning of ACTS.
Mutz, Jeff, please understand, ALL I know is WHAT I know. That I could be or AM wrong is CERTAINLY a 'posibility' EVEN to myself. BUT, I can offer that I have been 'led' to MANY personal Bible studies. What conclusions I have gathered through these studies is NOT just 'wishful thinking'. For I have NO desire to 'manipulate scripture' to MY understanding. Previous to my accepting Christ into my heart, I HAD NO UNDERSTANDING except that of this world.
I will 'condemn NO ONE' for their use or non-use of tongues. But I certainly feel OBLIGATED to offer 'my neighbors' the CLOSEST thing that I CAN to The Truth. MOST of what has been 'offered' through The Word concerning tongues is contained with Corinthians. And guys, MOST of what is offered in these letters IS REBUKE concerning MISUSE of tongues. Paul was CERTAINLY a VERY HUMBLE and PATIENT guy. He didn't want to 'turn the Corinthians AWAY' from The Church. His fear of them 'separating' in The Faith put HIM in a position that he couldn't REALLY chastise them without the fear of their 'falling FURTHER' away from The Truth.
But, he DID 'try' his BEST to; instead of TELLING them what they were doing that was COMPLETELY WRONG, he told them 'what was RIGHT TO DO'. Instead of telling them 'tongues DON'T exist the WAY you are USING them' he simply explained the PROPER use of tongues. I don't know if you can follow me on this but that what I offer is truth is without doubt once one is able to put aside that which would INTERFERE with it.
Back to the 'What' WERE tongues. Tongues were ALSO known as 'unknown' languages. NOT unknown to ANYBODY, for they WERE languages. Unknown to the ONE given utterance. UNLEARNED so far as carnal instruction. But GIVEN, as a 'gift' to those commissioned with the FORMATION of The Church. The IGNORANT Gallileans that were GIVEN this titanical task NEEDED all the HELP they could get. And God offered it through the Holy Spirit. Through GIFTS needed in order to extablish The Church. Tongues were the LEAST 'desirable', (or SHOULD have been), for ONE reason; They WERE NEEDED for 'a time'. For the time it took to FIRMLY establish AT LEAST a REMNANT. AT least long enough for The Church to be established firmly enough so that it COULD NOT BE COMPLETELY DISTROYED. And we WERE told that TONGUES WOULD CEASE. Do you HONESTLY believe that the ANSWER to this 'tongues' question CAN NOT be answered? Do you HONESTLY believe that NO ONE has been granted THE ANSWER in TRUTH?
Mutz, I have personally WITNESSED The Spirit working through your words and wisdom. If you say that you have 'spoken in tongues' I am forced to accept it. I cannot deny that with God ANYTHING is possible. I KNOW that 'tongues' existed and in this respect they DO exist. We certainly have the Word offering that there WERE those that were given this 'gift'. But I know that YOU know as well, that this that I say next IS A FACT; God KNOWS what is contained within YOUR heart and mine. He KNOWS. He KNOWS what YOU need as well as what I NEED BETTER than WE OURSELVES know. With these FACTS in mind and in one's heart, I am left with this QUESTION: WHAT NEED would ANYONE have for an UNKNOWN language that did NOT edify OTHERS? For our God IS a God of LOVE. And THAT IS REAL LOVE. And as ANYONE that has even the 'slightest INKLING' concerning love, anyone that has experienced the slightest TASTE of it, they KNOW that ""LOVE IS GIVING"", NOT taking.
Do tongues exist? They CERTAINLY DID. Do they exist now? Mutz, I do NOT believe that you would LIE to me so I MUST ACCEPT that they MUST. Have I personally witnessed their usage? NO. NOT in ANY way that has ANY significant PURPOSE. And 'trust me' folks, I do NOT deny tongues through envy or jealousy. I DO love my brothers and sisters and would encourage ANYTHING that I could percieve as being to 'their BENEFIT'. But, at the same time, I have the SAME obligation to warn them of those 'things' that MAY not be expedient in their 'walk'.
The tongues that I have PERSONALLY witnessed were NOT the 'tongues' spoken of in The Word. Perhaps God has a 'reason' for 'hiding them' from ME. Can't say. But I CAN say with ALL assurdness that the 'tongues' that I have personally witnessed are NOT 'of God'. And I 'think' one can CLEARLY SEE that I have MADE every effort within my capabilty to OFFER just THAT; I ONLY KNOW what I KNOW. And have PLAINLY stated that which I understand. I have NOT EVER stated that tongues DO NOT EXIST, or HAVE NOT existed. I have simply tried to offer my experiences and what has been revealed to me through scripture AND The Spirit.
And ANY tongues that do NOT follow the 'guidelines' as laid down by Paul CAN'T be true tongues. NOT unless PAUL was wrong. For tongues CANNOT be uttered EXCEPT AS THE SPIRIT GIVES UTTERANCE. The ONLY tongues that I have personally witnessed had NOTHING to do with The Spirit. Mutz, don't you believe, even JUST a little bit, that I could recognize The Spirit?
You offer that you have personally spoken in tongues. I do NOT deny this in ANY WAY. But with ALL the 'false tongues' or 'tongues from a 'different' source' there is little that one could fault me in my scepticism. For there ARE MANY spirits that exist.
And in closing, CHARITY is the 'gift' that is to BE paramount. That is what we MUST CHERISH. That is what we MUST SEEK. The 'other gifts' mean NOTHING without FIRST having come to an UNDERSTANDING Of Charity; LOVE. And we ARE to 'seek out' the MOST IMPORTANT. We are to DESIRE the MOST IMPORTANT. And without the MOST important FIRST, there is LITTLE doubt in my mind or heart that those 'secondary or tertiary gifts' are NOT obtainable without that which IS MOST important being obtained FIRST.
Jeff, I reread my post directed at yours. Forgive me brother, for I certainly did come off a 'bit harsh'. Perhaps I misinterpreted your offering. I apologize and ask for you to forgive a 'silly old man' for his lack of humility and 'briming over passion'. There is MUCH that I have yet to 'have changed' within me and this I willingly admit. Letting go of this 'old man' is NOT an EASY thing to do. But, with hope, charity and FAITH, it's just a MATTER OF TIME.
MEC
Jeff Mills
Member
PART I
Imagican, thank you for your long reply. I believe out of respect I too will neeed to give you my view and the views from God's perpective. I pray you will have a better understanding after redaing this. It looks as if I will have to post in two sections.
It is plainly taught in the scriptures that speaking with tongues was not an unusual occurrence in the early church. Every prominent account of conversions in the apostolic church either plainly states or else strongly implies that the convert did speak with other tongues upon being filled with the Spirit of God. (See Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:12-18, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6.) To the above most Bible students would agree.
It is when we discuss the place of tongues in the present Christian church that controversy arises. There are three general lines of thinking on this subject: 1. Tongues have ceased. 2. Tongues are optional. 3. All who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues.
Seeing that these positions are opposed one to the other, it is required of every sincere person to "Search the scriptures; for in them ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39) " . . . Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12) We all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. We all must give account of ourselves to Almighty God. Since every individual is responsible to God alone for his salvation, let us cast aside the opinions of men and consider each of these positions in light of the scriptures.
Tongues Have Ceased
We have chosen to examine this position first because if this be true, there is no need to investigate the doctrine of "speaking with tongues" any farther. Let us begin by establishing more thoroughly what is believed by the proponents of this doctrine and reasons given for this belief. It is believed that the Apostles actually did speak in other languages under the influence of the Spirit of God. It is also conceded that those with whom the Apostles had contact also received what is sometimes called the "miraculous gift of the Holy Ghost" (speaking with tongues). It is dogmatically asserted, however, by those of this persuasion that no one after the Apostolic era could possibly receive the Holy Ghost, speaking with tongues. The reason given for the sudden halt to this glorious experience is that all miraculous manifestations of God to the church ceased upon the death of the Apostles and of those with whom the Apostles had contact. The lone scripture given to support this theory is I Corinthians 13:8. Let us examine this passage of scripture.
I Cor. 13:8-12. "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: But when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known."
Notice that verse 8 is a prophecy that some day tongues will cease. There is no doubt about it. There will be a time according to the Bible when men will no longer speak with other tongues as the spirit gives utterance. The question we must answer is: "When did this prophecy actually state that tongues would cease?" Verse 10 identifies the time as ". . . when that which is perfect is come."
Those who contend that tongues have ceased teach that "that which is perfect" refers to the New Testament scriptures, and that upon completion of the New Testament all speaking with tongues ceased. However, there are several discrepancies in this argument. Notice that at the same time tongues are to cease, verse 8 teaches that some other things are also to be discontinued.
". . . whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." Whenever tongues are to cease, knowledge is also to cease. If knowledge has not yet ceased, then tongues have not ceased either. Now we know definitely that knowledge has not ceased. We still have colleges, seminaries, Bible studies. etc. If knowledge has ceased, why are you now reading this article?
". . . whether there be prophecies, they shall fail.." At the same time tongues are to cease, prophecies are to cease. Now if tongues have ceased already, that means prophecy has also ceased never to be resumed. This, however, is contrary to the scriptures. For the scriptures teach that during the tribulation, a time yet to come, two witnesses shall prophesy for three and a half years. (Rev. 11:3) Since prophecy has not yet ceased and since knowledge has not yet been discontinued, then it is very evident that neither have tongues ceased. It is also shown since tongues have not ceased that "that which is perfect" referred to in I Cor. 13:10 is not the New Testament. Certainly the New Testament is perfect, but there are many other things which are also perfect. Jesus Christ was perfect, but he did not cause a halt to speaking with tongues. The gift of the Holy Ghost was perfect, yet the speaking with tongues accompanied the Holy Ghost. So we see it is necessary to study the context of this passage in order to know the time indicated by "when that which is perfect is come."
In this connection let us look closely at verse 12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Now, seeing through a glass darkly refers to our present mortal state. Then face to face speaks of the time when "that which is perfect" is come. When shall we see Jesus face to face? At the return of Jesus for His church, whereupon we shall be changed from mortal beings to immortal beings. (I Cor. 15:50-54, I Thess. 4:13-18) This is when we shall see Him face to face, and this is when we shall know even as we are known. Do any of us now know Jesus as He knows us? No! We merely know Him in part, but THEN (when that which is perfect is come) shall we know even as we are known. He knows the number of hairs on our heads. He knows our downsittings and our uprisings. We do not know Him that fully now, but we shall some day know as we are known.
In view of the above we can see that ". . . when that which is perfect is come" refers to the time when we have received our immortal bodies and are in the presence of the Lord forever. It is at this time that tongues shall cease, knowledge shall vanish, and prophecies shall fail. Knowledge will vanish because we shall know all things. Tongues will cease because the fundamental function of tongues is to speak mysteries unto God. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (I Cor. 14:2) When we stand face to face before the throne of God, there will be no need to speak mysteries in the spirit.
We see then, that there is absolutely no support for the teaching that tongues have ceased. If the original church of Jesus Christ practiced speaking with tongues, why shouldn¹t the present church of Jesus Christ speak with tongues? Did not the Lord promise through the Apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost. "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39) He was referring to the gift of the Holy Ghost accompanied by speaking with tongues; and Peter was saying that it was promised to those who were yet afar off. This includes people in our present time. If God has promised it to us, why not believe it, embrace it, and receive it?!
PLEASE READ PART II
Imagican, thank you for your long reply. I believe out of respect I too will neeed to give you my view and the views from God's perpective. I pray you will have a better understanding after redaing this. It looks as if I will have to post in two sections.
It is plainly taught in the scriptures that speaking with tongues was not an unusual occurrence in the early church. Every prominent account of conversions in the apostolic church either plainly states or else strongly implies that the convert did speak with other tongues upon being filled with the Spirit of God. (See Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:12-18, Acts 10:44-48, Acts 19:1-6.) To the above most Bible students would agree.
It is when we discuss the place of tongues in the present Christian church that controversy arises. There are three general lines of thinking on this subject: 1. Tongues have ceased. 2. Tongues are optional. 3. All who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues.
Seeing that these positions are opposed one to the other, it is required of every sincere person to "Search the scriptures; for in them ye THINK ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39) " . . . Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Phil. 2:12) We all must stand before the judgment seat of Christ. We all must give account of ourselves to Almighty God. Since every individual is responsible to God alone for his salvation, let us cast aside the opinions of men and consider each of these positions in light of the scriptures.
Tongues Have Ceased
We have chosen to examine this position first because if this be true, there is no need to investigate the doctrine of "speaking with tongues" any farther. Let us begin by establishing more thoroughly what is believed by the proponents of this doctrine and reasons given for this belief. It is believed that the Apostles actually did speak in other languages under the influence of the Spirit of God. It is also conceded that those with whom the Apostles had contact also received what is sometimes called the "miraculous gift of the Holy Ghost" (speaking with tongues). It is dogmatically asserted, however, by those of this persuasion that no one after the Apostolic era could possibly receive the Holy Ghost, speaking with tongues. The reason given for the sudden halt to this glorious experience is that all miraculous manifestations of God to the church ceased upon the death of the Apostles and of those with whom the Apostles had contact. The lone scripture given to support this theory is I Corinthians 13:8. Let us examine this passage of scripture.
I Cor. 13:8-12. "Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: But when I became a man, I put away childish things. For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as I am known."
Notice that verse 8 is a prophecy that some day tongues will cease. There is no doubt about it. There will be a time according to the Bible when men will no longer speak with other tongues as the spirit gives utterance. The question we must answer is: "When did this prophecy actually state that tongues would cease?" Verse 10 identifies the time as ". . . when that which is perfect is come."
Those who contend that tongues have ceased teach that "that which is perfect" refers to the New Testament scriptures, and that upon completion of the New Testament all speaking with tongues ceased. However, there are several discrepancies in this argument. Notice that at the same time tongues are to cease, verse 8 teaches that some other things are also to be discontinued.
". . . whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away." Whenever tongues are to cease, knowledge is also to cease. If knowledge has not yet ceased, then tongues have not ceased either. Now we know definitely that knowledge has not ceased. We still have colleges, seminaries, Bible studies. etc. If knowledge has ceased, why are you now reading this article?
". . . whether there be prophecies, they shall fail.." At the same time tongues are to cease, prophecies are to cease. Now if tongues have ceased already, that means prophecy has also ceased never to be resumed. This, however, is contrary to the scriptures. For the scriptures teach that during the tribulation, a time yet to come, two witnesses shall prophesy for three and a half years. (Rev. 11:3) Since prophecy has not yet ceased and since knowledge has not yet been discontinued, then it is very evident that neither have tongues ceased. It is also shown since tongues have not ceased that "that which is perfect" referred to in I Cor. 13:10 is not the New Testament. Certainly the New Testament is perfect, but there are many other things which are also perfect. Jesus Christ was perfect, but he did not cause a halt to speaking with tongues. The gift of the Holy Ghost was perfect, yet the speaking with tongues accompanied the Holy Ghost. So we see it is necessary to study the context of this passage in order to know the time indicated by "when that which is perfect is come."
In this connection let us look closely at verse 12: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." Now, seeing through a glass darkly refers to our present mortal state. Then face to face speaks of the time when "that which is perfect" is come. When shall we see Jesus face to face? At the return of Jesus for His church, whereupon we shall be changed from mortal beings to immortal beings. (I Cor. 15:50-54, I Thess. 4:13-18) This is when we shall see Him face to face, and this is when we shall know even as we are known. Do any of us now know Jesus as He knows us? No! We merely know Him in part, but THEN (when that which is perfect is come) shall we know even as we are known. He knows the number of hairs on our heads. He knows our downsittings and our uprisings. We do not know Him that fully now, but we shall some day know as we are known.
In view of the above we can see that ". . . when that which is perfect is come" refers to the time when we have received our immortal bodies and are in the presence of the Lord forever. It is at this time that tongues shall cease, knowledge shall vanish, and prophecies shall fail. Knowledge will vanish because we shall know all things. Tongues will cease because the fundamental function of tongues is to speak mysteries unto God. "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." (I Cor. 14:2) When we stand face to face before the throne of God, there will be no need to speak mysteries in the spirit.
We see then, that there is absolutely no support for the teaching that tongues have ceased. If the original church of Jesus Christ practiced speaking with tongues, why shouldn¹t the present church of Jesus Christ speak with tongues? Did not the Lord promise through the Apostle Peter on the day of Pentecost. "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39) He was referring to the gift of the Holy Ghost accompanied by speaking with tongues; and Peter was saying that it was promised to those who were yet afar off. This includes people in our present time. If God has promised it to us, why not believe it, embrace it, and receive it?!
PLEASE READ PART II
Jeff Mills
Member
Tongues--Optional or Necessary?
There are two principal schools of thought among those who believe that speaking with tongues should be in the Christian¹s life today. The first view states that some people who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, while others who receive it do not. The second teaching holds that all who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, and that tongues is the sign that a person is being filled with the spirit.
The first question that we must answer then is, "In the early church did all who received the Holy Ghost speak with tongues?" Let us examine the historical record given to us in the book of Acts. There are four in-depth accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost. The first of these is found in Acts 2:1-4.
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it say upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Notice that here they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues. All who received the Holy Ghost here spake with other tongues.
Now let us look at another instance found in Acts 10:44-46.
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God."
Here again, all who received the Holy Ghost did speak with tongues. Further, this scripture teaches that the way they knew that these individuals received the Holy Ghost was "for they heard them speak with tongues." It is evident that speaking with tongues was the sign that people had been filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6 records: And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Again in this record of the Holy Ghost outpouring, we see that those receiving the Holy Ghost did speak with tongues.
The last account of people receiving the Holy Ghost which we would like to discuss is found in Acts 8:14-19.
"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the world of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord jesus). Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost."
This is the only full account of conversion in the book of Acts (the history book of the early church) which does not specifically state that those who received the Holy Ghost did speak with other tongues. However, if we will study the above passage we can show that they did in fact speak with tongues when they received the Holy Ghost at Samaria. The author of the book of Acts merely did not explicitly say that they spake with tongues because by this time it was an accepted fact that tongues was the accompanying sign of the Holy Ghost.
Notice here the setting. The Samaritans had believed and had been baptized. (Verse 12.) Yet Peter and John came down from Jerusalem to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. ("For as yet he was fallen upon none of them:") Now the question is, "How did they know that the Holy Ghost had fallen upon none of them?" Was it not because they had not heard them speak with tongues? Then verse 17 emphatically declares, "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." How did they know they had now received the Holy Ghost? There obviously was a sign. Let¹s go on to verses 18 and 19. This passage states that Simon SAW that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given. Now, if there were no visible manifestations accompanying the Holy Ghost, what did Simon see? Also notice what Simon the sorcerer did. He offered the apostles money, saying, "Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." Why would Simon offer money for the power to lay hands on people that they might receive the Holy Ghost? Simply because he had watched the apostles lay their hands on the people and had seen them begin to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave utterance. He thought within himself. "If I could lay my hands on people and they would speak in other languages that they had never learned before, that could be turned into quite a money-making proposition." So we see that even though Acts 8 does not say they spake with tongues when they received the Holy Ghost, it is very evident that they actually did. If you ask a shoe clerk to bring you a pair of shoes, you don¹t say, "And be sure to bring the tongues." You know when you get the shoes that you get the tongues of the shoes along with them. The same is true with the Holy Ghost. Acts 8 did not say that they spake with tongues because the author assumed by this time everyone knew that when an individual receives the Holy Ghost, he does speak with tongues!
Thus we see that in every account of the outpouring of the Holy Ghost in the early church the recipients did speak with other tongues when they were filled. Acts 2, tongues. Acts 8, tongues. Acts 10, tongues. Acts 19, tongues. If every time they received the Holy Ghost they spake with tongues, why should we believe that we have received the Holy Ghost without speaking with tongues? Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES."
If tongues are not the sign that a person has received the Holy Ghost, how are we to know that we have received it? Some say that a person receives the spirit automatically when he believes. (See Acts 19) Others contend that the spirit comes when an individual is baptized. Those holding the above views insist that we must accept by faith that we have received the spirit with no outward manifestation or definite spiritual experience. Can these teachings stand the test of the scriptures?
Acts 8:12 records: "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Notice! These Samaritans had believed and had been baptized. According to the foregoing doctrines, these people should have now had the Holy Ghost. Yet Acts 8:14-16 plainly tells us that Peter and John "when they were come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them;)" They hadn¹t received the Holy Ghost! What does this teach us then? Even though we may have believed and also been baptized, this does not mean we have received the Holy Ghost. How then can we know that we have received the Holy Ghost? How did the apostles know when Cornelius' household received it in Acts 10:46? "For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." What more proof do we need? When you receive the Holy Ghost you will know it; for you will speak with other tongues as the spirit gives utterance.
A source of great confusion on the "tongues question" is not being able to differentiate between tongues as the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost and for self-edification in private prayer, as opposed to the Gift of tongues given for the edification of the church.
The Gift of the Holy or The Gift of Tongues?
In the 14th chapter of I Corinthians Paul teaches extensively concerning the operation of tongues in the Christian¹s life and the operation of the gift of tongues in the church. (Note that the gift of tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost are different things.) All who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, but this does not mean that they have the GIFT of tongues.
It is obvious by the content of this chapter that the Corinthians had been mishandling what God had given to them. When the church came together, they all would spend the entire service time speaking with tongues. Paul teaches them in verse 23, "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" Now Paul was definitely not teaching against speaking with tongues as some would have us believe; for in verse 18 he says, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all." Paul states clearly what he was teaching in verse 19 - Yet IN THE CHURCH I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." Corinthians, when you come together don¹t just speak in tongues continually, but rather speak words that will edify other members of the church and instruct unbelievers that might be present concerning the things of God.
Now is it ever proper to speak with tongues IN THE CHURCH? Certainly!
Paul here is instructing as to the proper exercise of the Gift of tongues coupled with the gift of interpretation to be used IN THE CHURCH. The gift of tongues is an extraordinary operation of tongues in a believer¹s life. It is one of the nine gifts of the spirit listed in I Cor. 12:8-10, and is specifically designed for use IN THE CHURCH.
I Cor. 14:26-28 "How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath A TONGUE, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, (IN THE CHURCH) let it be by two, or at the most be three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But it there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church: and let him speak to himself, and to God"
What about tongues outside the church and in the believer¹s private prayer life? There are two ways for an individual to pray: (1) with the spirit, (2) with the mind or understanding. Jesus said that they that worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Spirit and mind)
How does one pray "with the spirit?" I Cor. 14:14 tells us, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." We see that praying in an unknown tongue is praying with the spirit. I Cor. 14:2 verifies this "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." The purpose of praying in other tongues is stated in I Cor. 14:4, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth (builds up) himself." There is certainly nothing wrong with being built up spiritually. This is necessary so that we will be strong. No wonder Paul was such a powerful man of God. He said, "I speak with tongues more than ye all" (verse 18). Isaiah prophesied concerning this source of strength, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said. This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:" (Isa. 28:11-12) This operation of speaking with tongues is not the gift of tongues, for no place in the Bible is it referred to as such. Tongues in prayer is for the upbuilding of one¹s spirit and for speaking mysteries unto God. Tongues as the gift of tongues is to be coupled with the gift of interpretation of tongues for use in the church to the edification of the body.
All people who receive the Holy Ghost will speak with tongues, not only once, but again and again. The Holy Ghost is our spiritual fuel that gives us power. It is like gasoline in an automobile. You burn it, and then you need to be refueled. Not only is receiving the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues the rest, but it is also the REFRESHING. (Isa. 28:11-12) Though the outward man perish, the inward man is renewed day by day. How is a man edified or renewed? I Cor. 14:4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself." The manna given to the children of Israel in the wilderness was a type of the Holy Ghost. The quail was a type of the word of God's spirit and truth again. Moses commanded them to gather fresh manna every day. Titus 3:5 tells us that we are saved "by the washing of regeneration, and the RENEWING of the Holy Ghost;" So we see that God chose speaking with tongues as a sign that a person is being filled with the Holy Ghost, whether for the first time or for the one-hundredth time. This is not the gift of tongues, but is merely what God intended for every New Testament Christian to exercise and enjoy.
Why Did God Choose Tongues?
Often the question is asked, "Why did God choose tongues as the sign that a person is being filled with the Holy Ghost?" First of all, God is sovereign and can do anything that he chooses to do. As the Bible states, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:20)
Secondly, the Bible teaches us that the tongue is an unruly member of the body, set on fire of hell; and that no man can tame the tongue, for it is full of deadly poison. (James 3:6-8) In order for a person to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, he must totally yield his body, soul, and spirit to almighty God. Since the tongue is the most unruly member of the body, God chose to use the tongue as a sign that the individual had totally submitted his will to the will of God. If an individual will speak words in obedience to the urgings of the spirit that he himself does not understand, this is a sign that the person has given himself totally unto God. It is abhorrent to many people that they would speak things which they themselves do not understand, by-passing the intellect. This is why Jesus said that men through wisdom knew not God. So we see that there is a deep spiritual reason behind God¹s choice of tongues as a medium of spiritual communication with Him.
Some Objections
1. Tongues were given in the apostles¹ days so that the gospel could be conveyed to men of other languages. We don¹t need this today, since we can learn other languages through education.
Answer: While it is true that tongues were used by God for communication in one incident in the Bible, (Acts 2) this was not the primary purpose for tongues. Paul said in I Corinthians 14:2, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT UNTO MEN, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Paul positively states that the primary purpose of tongues is not to speak unto men.
2. Tongues heard today are mere gibberish, and are of the devil.
Answer: Sorry to say, this writer has witnessed what skeptics refer to in the above objection. Some people, through a lack of teaching or possible insincerity, have blurted out gibberish and called it speaking with tongues. Others, under the influence of Satan, have jabbered as though they were speaking with tongues. Satan always likes to counterfeit anything real from God in an attempt to discredit it. A true minister of God can detect the false from the real in a moment. When a person truly speaks in tongues, it will not be gibberish or mumbling. It will be fluent and beautiful. Just because there are counterfeit twenty-dollar bills in circulation, that doesn¹t keep us from spending our good ones; likewise, merely because the devil might produce counterfeit tongues, we must not throw overboard this spiritual exercise that is vital and absolutely necessary.
3. Paul said that not all spake with tongues.
Answer: The scripture here referred to is I Corinthians 12:30, "Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" Paul here is dealing with the gifts of the spirit: The gifts of healing, the gift of tongues, and the gift of interpretation of tongues. It is true and we have stated already that not all have the GIFT of tongues. All who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, but all who have the Holy Ghost do not have the Gift of tongues for use in the church.
Conclusion
May this writer conclude this booklet with a personal testimony? This writer¹s own mother, in 1962, made a trip to the country of Egypt. While in a church meeting there, a certain Arabic lady was to be baptized. This lady had no education, not even so much as to be able to read and write in her native tongue. After she was baptized, the Holy Ghost fell upon her. She suddenly began to speak in perfect English as the spirit gave her utterance. She had no prior knowledge of the English language, yet she spoke fluently without even so much as an accent! She said, "How beautiful is the sky, my God, how beautiful is the sky." She went on to praise God with may other words in English. Afterward, she gave a message directly to the missionary who understood English. This happened just like the book of Acts. It was the exact same experience.
I have known friends who have experienced this same thing while visiting foreign countries.
If you have never received the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking with other tongues as the spirit gives utterance, then you do not have all that God has for you. You must have this experience in order to live the Christian life that Jesus wants you to live. Jesus said in Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." The apostles had this power, the early church had this power, and God wants you to have this power today. Without the power of the Holy Ghost in us, we fulfill the scripture written by Paul in II Timothy 3:5, "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
There are two principal schools of thought among those who believe that speaking with tongues should be in the Christian¹s life today. The first view states that some people who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, while others who receive it do not. The second teaching holds that all who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, and that tongues is the sign that a person is being filled with the spirit.
The first question that we must answer then is, "In the early church did all who received the Holy Ghost speak with tongues?" Let us examine the historical record given to us in the book of Acts. There are four in-depth accounts of people receiving the Holy Ghost. The first of these is found in Acts 2:1-4.
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it say upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Notice that here they were ALL filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues. All who received the Holy Ghost here spake with other tongues.
Now let us look at another instance found in Acts 10:44-46.
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God."
Here again, all who received the Holy Ghost did speak with tongues. Further, this scripture teaches that the way they knew that these individuals received the Holy Ghost was "for they heard them speak with tongues." It is evident that speaking with tongues was the sign that people had been filled with the Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:6 records: And when Paul laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Again in this record of the Holy Ghost outpouring, we see that those receiving the Holy Ghost did speak with tongues.
The last account of people receiving the Holy Ghost which we would like to discuss is found in Acts 8:14-19.
"Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the world of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (for as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord jesus). Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost."
This is the only full account of conversion in the book of Acts (the history book of the early church) which does not specifically state that those who received the Holy Ghost did speak with other tongues. However, if we will study the above passage we can show that they did in fact speak with tongues when they received the Holy Ghost at Samaria. The author of the book of Acts merely did not explicitly say that they spake with tongues because by this time it was an accepted fact that tongues was the accompanying sign of the Holy Ghost.
Notice here the setting. The Samaritans had believed and had been baptized. (Verse 12.) Yet Peter and John came down from Jerusalem to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost. ("For as yet he was fallen upon none of them:") Now the question is, "How did they know that the Holy Ghost had fallen upon none of them?" Was it not because they had not heard them speak with tongues? Then verse 17 emphatically declares, "Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost." How did they know they had now received the Holy Ghost? There obviously was a sign. Let¹s go on to verses 18 and 19. This passage states that Simon SAW that through the laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given. Now, if there were no visible manifestations accompanying the Holy Ghost, what did Simon see? Also notice what Simon the sorcerer did. He offered the apostles money, saying, "Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost." Why would Simon offer money for the power to lay hands on people that they might receive the Holy Ghost? Simply because he had watched the apostles lay their hands on the people and had seen them begin to speak with other tongues as the spirit gave utterance. He thought within himself. "If I could lay my hands on people and they would speak in other languages that they had never learned before, that could be turned into quite a money-making proposition." So we see that even though Acts 8 does not say they spake with tongues when they received the Holy Ghost, it is very evident that they actually did. If you ask a shoe clerk to bring you a pair of shoes, you don¹t say, "And be sure to bring the tongues." You know when you get the shoes that you get the tongues of the shoes along with them. The same is true with the Holy Ghost. Acts 8 did not say that they spake with tongues because the author assumed by this time everyone knew that when an individual receives the Holy Ghost, he does speak with tongues!
Thus we see that in every account of the outpouring of the Holy Ghost in the early church the recipients did speak with other tongues when they were filled. Acts 2, tongues. Acts 8, tongues. Acts 10, tongues. Acts 19, tongues. If every time they received the Holy Ghost they spake with tongues, why should we believe that we have received the Holy Ghost without speaking with tongues? Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they SHALL SPEAK WITH NEW TONGUES."
If tongues are not the sign that a person has received the Holy Ghost, how are we to know that we have received it? Some say that a person receives the spirit automatically when he believes. (See Acts 19) Others contend that the spirit comes when an individual is baptized. Those holding the above views insist that we must accept by faith that we have received the spirit with no outward manifestation or definite spiritual experience. Can these teachings stand the test of the scriptures?
Acts 8:12 records: "But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women." Notice! These Samaritans had believed and had been baptized. According to the foregoing doctrines, these people should have now had the Holy Ghost. Yet Acts 8:14-16 plainly tells us that Peter and John "when they were come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them;)" They hadn¹t received the Holy Ghost! What does this teach us then? Even though we may have believed and also been baptized, this does not mean we have received the Holy Ghost. How then can we know that we have received the Holy Ghost? How did the apostles know when Cornelius' household received it in Acts 10:46? "For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God." What more proof do we need? When you receive the Holy Ghost you will know it; for you will speak with other tongues as the spirit gives utterance.
A source of great confusion on the "tongues question" is not being able to differentiate between tongues as the initial sign of the infilling of the Holy Ghost and for self-edification in private prayer, as opposed to the Gift of tongues given for the edification of the church.
The Gift of the Holy or The Gift of Tongues?
In the 14th chapter of I Corinthians Paul teaches extensively concerning the operation of tongues in the Christian¹s life and the operation of the gift of tongues in the church. (Note that the gift of tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost are different things.) All who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, but this does not mean that they have the GIFT of tongues.
It is obvious by the content of this chapter that the Corinthians had been mishandling what God had given to them. When the church came together, they all would spend the entire service time speaking with tongues. Paul teaches them in verse 23, "If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?" Now Paul was definitely not teaching against speaking with tongues as some would have us believe; for in verse 18 he says, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all." Paul states clearly what he was teaching in verse 19 - Yet IN THE CHURCH I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." Corinthians, when you come together don¹t just speak in tongues continually, but rather speak words that will edify other members of the church and instruct unbelievers that might be present concerning the things of God.
Now is it ever proper to speak with tongues IN THE CHURCH? Certainly!
Paul here is instructing as to the proper exercise of the Gift of tongues coupled with the gift of interpretation to be used IN THE CHURCH. The gift of tongues is an extraordinary operation of tongues in a believer¹s life. It is one of the nine gifts of the spirit listed in I Cor. 12:8-10, and is specifically designed for use IN THE CHURCH.
I Cor. 14:26-28 "How is it then, brethren? When ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath A TONGUE, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, (IN THE CHURCH) let it be by two, or at the most be three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But it there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church: and let him speak to himself, and to God"
What about tongues outside the church and in the believer¹s private prayer life? There are two ways for an individual to pray: (1) with the spirit, (2) with the mind or understanding. Jesus said that they that worship God must worship him in spirit and in truth. (Spirit and mind)
How does one pray "with the spirit?" I Cor. 14:14 tells us, "For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful." We see that praying in an unknown tongue is praying with the spirit. I Cor. 14:2 verifies this "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." The purpose of praying in other tongues is stated in I Cor. 14:4, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth (builds up) himself." There is certainly nothing wrong with being built up spiritually. This is necessary so that we will be strong. No wonder Paul was such a powerful man of God. He said, "I speak with tongues more than ye all" (verse 18). Isaiah prophesied concerning this source of strength, "For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said. This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing:" (Isa. 28:11-12) This operation of speaking with tongues is not the gift of tongues, for no place in the Bible is it referred to as such. Tongues in prayer is for the upbuilding of one¹s spirit and for speaking mysteries unto God. Tongues as the gift of tongues is to be coupled with the gift of interpretation of tongues for use in the church to the edification of the body.
All people who receive the Holy Ghost will speak with tongues, not only once, but again and again. The Holy Ghost is our spiritual fuel that gives us power. It is like gasoline in an automobile. You burn it, and then you need to be refueled. Not only is receiving the Holy Ghost speaking with tongues the rest, but it is also the REFRESHING. (Isa. 28:11-12) Though the outward man perish, the inward man is renewed day by day. How is a man edified or renewed? I Cor. 14:4 "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself." The manna given to the children of Israel in the wilderness was a type of the Holy Ghost. The quail was a type of the word of God's spirit and truth again. Moses commanded them to gather fresh manna every day. Titus 3:5 tells us that we are saved "by the washing of regeneration, and the RENEWING of the Holy Ghost;" So we see that God chose speaking with tongues as a sign that a person is being filled with the Holy Ghost, whether for the first time or for the one-hundredth time. This is not the gift of tongues, but is merely what God intended for every New Testament Christian to exercise and enjoy.
Why Did God Choose Tongues?
Often the question is asked, "Why did God choose tongues as the sign that a person is being filled with the Holy Ghost?" First of all, God is sovereign and can do anything that he chooses to do. As the Bible states, "Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?" (Romans 9:20)
Secondly, the Bible teaches us that the tongue is an unruly member of the body, set on fire of hell; and that no man can tame the tongue, for it is full of deadly poison. (James 3:6-8) In order for a person to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, he must totally yield his body, soul, and spirit to almighty God. Since the tongue is the most unruly member of the body, God chose to use the tongue as a sign that the individual had totally submitted his will to the will of God. If an individual will speak words in obedience to the urgings of the spirit that he himself does not understand, this is a sign that the person has given himself totally unto God. It is abhorrent to many people that they would speak things which they themselves do not understand, by-passing the intellect. This is why Jesus said that men through wisdom knew not God. So we see that there is a deep spiritual reason behind God¹s choice of tongues as a medium of spiritual communication with Him.
Some Objections
1. Tongues were given in the apostles¹ days so that the gospel could be conveyed to men of other languages. We don¹t need this today, since we can learn other languages through education.
Answer: While it is true that tongues were used by God for communication in one incident in the Bible, (Acts 2) this was not the primary purpose for tongues. Paul said in I Corinthians 14:2, "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh NOT UNTO MEN, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." Paul positively states that the primary purpose of tongues is not to speak unto men.
2. Tongues heard today are mere gibberish, and are of the devil.
Answer: Sorry to say, this writer has witnessed what skeptics refer to in the above objection. Some people, through a lack of teaching or possible insincerity, have blurted out gibberish and called it speaking with tongues. Others, under the influence of Satan, have jabbered as though they were speaking with tongues. Satan always likes to counterfeit anything real from God in an attempt to discredit it. A true minister of God can detect the false from the real in a moment. When a person truly speaks in tongues, it will not be gibberish or mumbling. It will be fluent and beautiful. Just because there are counterfeit twenty-dollar bills in circulation, that doesn¹t keep us from spending our good ones; likewise, merely because the devil might produce counterfeit tongues, we must not throw overboard this spiritual exercise that is vital and absolutely necessary.
3. Paul said that not all spake with tongues.
Answer: The scripture here referred to is I Corinthians 12:30, "Have all the gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" Paul here is dealing with the gifts of the spirit: The gifts of healing, the gift of tongues, and the gift of interpretation of tongues. It is true and we have stated already that not all have the GIFT of tongues. All who receive the Holy Ghost do speak with tongues, but all who have the Holy Ghost do not have the Gift of tongues for use in the church.
Conclusion
May this writer conclude this booklet with a personal testimony? This writer¹s own mother, in 1962, made a trip to the country of Egypt. While in a church meeting there, a certain Arabic lady was to be baptized. This lady had no education, not even so much as to be able to read and write in her native tongue. After she was baptized, the Holy Ghost fell upon her. She suddenly began to speak in perfect English as the spirit gave her utterance. She had no prior knowledge of the English language, yet she spoke fluently without even so much as an accent! She said, "How beautiful is the sky, my God, how beautiful is the sky." She went on to praise God with may other words in English. Afterward, she gave a message directly to the missionary who understood English. This happened just like the book of Acts. It was the exact same experience.
I have known friends who have experienced this same thing while visiting foreign countries.
If you have never received the Holy Ghost evidenced by speaking with other tongues as the spirit gives utterance, then you do not have all that God has for you. You must have this experience in order to live the Christian life that Jesus wants you to live. Jesus said in Acts 1:8, "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." The apostles had this power, the early church had this power, and God wants you to have this power today. Without the power of the Holy Ghost in us, we fulfill the scripture written by Paul in II Timothy 3:5, "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."
reply
Jeff, Excellent post. I think one of the problems with tongues is people seem to think that something can happen automatically. You can sit in a corner all day, and if we don't use our mouths nothing will happen. When I minister the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Spirit givves utterance, I tell them to hold their belly ( where our spirits reside), Then I would tell them to surrender to the Spirit. Do you agree Jeff?
May God bless, Golfjack
Jeff, Excellent post. I think one of the problems with tongues is people seem to think that something can happen automatically. You can sit in a corner all day, and if we don't use our mouths nothing will happen. When I minister the Holy Ghost, because the Holy Spirit givves utterance, I tell them to hold their belly ( where our spirits reside), Then I would tell them to surrender to the Spirit. Do you agree Jeff?
May God bless, Golfjack
I
Imagican
Guest
Good stuff Jeff,
Haven't finished yet, but to keep my posts at a reasonable length, I will give my replies as I read.
I am in the 'tongues have ceased' part of your offering.
You do well in your defense of this 'belief'. But let me offer a 'little something' that SO many seem to be oblivious to;
When that which is perfect is come. So many believe that this refers to the 'coming of Christ'. Couldn't be FURTHER from the Truth. For what is referred to here is one's UNDERSTANDING of LOVE. For NOW and PREVIOUS to Christ's appearance here on this earth, EVEN the CHOSEN of God had been UNABLE to understand The Law. They believed it was simply a matter of adherence. They were WRONG. We KNOW this NOW for we have the words of Christ AND the apostles that SHOW us that the Law was NOTHING more than a 'teacher' who 'had a time'. And the lesson that the Law was MEANT to teach WAS love.
And Paul was NOT speaking to those 'MATURE' in The Spirit at the TIME he wrote to them. BUT UNTO BABES, worthy of NO MORE than MILK. And WHAT is it that we become when we are ABLE to withstand MEAT? UNDERSTANDING IN LOVE.
So basically Paul was referring to LOVE when he wrote of 'that which IS perfect'. For if one chooses to read through the NT, they will soon find that there ARE MANY references to the ability that WE HAve TO 'be perfect'. Since we KNOW that we are UNABLE to be perfect PERIOD, we MUST search into this statement in order to UNDERSTAND in WHAT WAY we are able to BE PERFECT. And this is ONLY possible in an understanding of LOVE. For EACH is a sinner, Each is UNABLE to understand EVERYTHING concerning God and His Son, But, each of us IS able to come to a PERFECT UNDERSTANDING of LOVE if we allow The Spirit and The Word to guide us in this direction.
MEC
Haven't finished yet, but to keep my posts at a reasonable length, I will give my replies as I read.
I am in the 'tongues have ceased' part of your offering.
You do well in your defense of this 'belief'. But let me offer a 'little something' that SO many seem to be oblivious to;
When that which is perfect is come. So many believe that this refers to the 'coming of Christ'. Couldn't be FURTHER from the Truth. For what is referred to here is one's UNDERSTANDING of LOVE. For NOW and PREVIOUS to Christ's appearance here on this earth, EVEN the CHOSEN of God had been UNABLE to understand The Law. They believed it was simply a matter of adherence. They were WRONG. We KNOW this NOW for we have the words of Christ AND the apostles that SHOW us that the Law was NOTHING more than a 'teacher' who 'had a time'. And the lesson that the Law was MEANT to teach WAS love.
And Paul was NOT speaking to those 'MATURE' in The Spirit at the TIME he wrote to them. BUT UNTO BABES, worthy of NO MORE than MILK. And WHAT is it that we become when we are ABLE to withstand MEAT? UNDERSTANDING IN LOVE.
So basically Paul was referring to LOVE when he wrote of 'that which IS perfect'. For if one chooses to read through the NT, they will soon find that there ARE MANY references to the ability that WE HAve TO 'be perfect'. Since we KNOW that we are UNABLE to be perfect PERIOD, we MUST search into this statement in order to UNDERSTAND in WHAT WAY we are able to BE PERFECT. And this is ONLY possible in an understanding of LOVE. For EACH is a sinner, Each is UNABLE to understand EVERYTHING concerning God and His Son, But, each of us IS able to come to a PERFECT UNDERSTANDING of LOVE if we allow The Spirit and The Word to guide us in this direction.
MEC
MEC
I’m not sure whether it was made clear by Jeff but there is also a school of thought on the ‘tongues’ experience as it relates to salvation.
There are those who believe that the experience (‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’) is a second experience that comes after being ‘saved’ or accepting Christ as their saviour. Those who hold to this position believe that the evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit is to speak in tongues. Some even go so far as to say that unless you speak in tongues your salvation is not complete. Therefore it is NECESSARY to speak in tongues.
I do not hold to this position (or even part of it). I believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit is in fact the point at which we are ‘saved’ or born again (born of the Holy Spirit). Plainly I accept that the gift of tongues is a legitimate gift of the Holy Spirit along with many other gifts of the Spirit. However speaking in tongues of itself can never be THE evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. It is the fruit of the Spirit that is evidence of being born of the Spirit.
I will post more on this later brother
I’m not sure whether it was made clear by Jeff but there is also a school of thought on the ‘tongues’ experience as it relates to salvation.
There are those who believe that the experience (‘baptism of the Holy Spirit’) is a second experience that comes after being ‘saved’ or accepting Christ as their saviour. Those who hold to this position believe that the evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit is to speak in tongues. Some even go so far as to say that unless you speak in tongues your salvation is not complete. Therefore it is NECESSARY to speak in tongues.
I do not hold to this position (or even part of it). I believe that baptism of the Holy Spirit is in fact the point at which we are ‘saved’ or born again (born of the Holy Spirit). Plainly I accept that the gift of tongues is a legitimate gift of the Holy Spirit along with many other gifts of the Spirit. However speaking in tongues of itself can never be THE evidence of receiving the Holy Spirit. It is the fruit of the Spirit that is evidence of being born of the Spirit.
I will post more on this later brother
I
Imagican
Guest
Mutz,
Absolutely, scripturally speaking.
Jeff,
I would also argue that the wording is; Prophecy shall FAIL. This is PURE indication that; Prophecy shall 'become of NO effect'. that there WILL be those who 'offer prophecy' but it will NOT be 'of The Spirit'. And there is MUCH indication that this 'took place' shortly after Christ took His place at His Father's side.
For EVEN the apostles warned us of 'false prophets' EVEN durring their TIME.
MEC
Absolutely, scripturally speaking.
Jeff,
I would also argue that the wording is; Prophecy shall FAIL. This is PURE indication that; Prophecy shall 'become of NO effect'. that there WILL be those who 'offer prophecy' but it will NOT be 'of The Spirit'. And there is MUCH indication that this 'took place' shortly after Christ took His place at His Father's side.
For EVEN the apostles warned us of 'false prophets' EVEN durring their TIME.
MEC
Jeff Mills
Member
Re: reply
Hallo my friend. Thank you. Yes, I believe you are right in what you do. God works in many strange ways. Oh that Christians would wake up to this wonderful gift. I thnk the Lord that He allows me to work on all the gifts as they are needed.
golfjack said:
Hallo my friend. Thank you. Yes, I believe you are right in what you do. God works in many strange ways. Oh that Christians would wake up to this wonderful gift. I thnk the Lord that He allows me to work on all the gifts as they are needed.
To understand the outworking of the gift of tongues, it would be appropriate to reflect on the evidence of the experience, and the teachings and comments in scripture relating to it.
Mark records that just before Jesus ascended into heaven he appeared to his disciples and said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
This is the only record of Jesus referring to ‘speaking in tongues,’ and there doesn't seem to be any special significance attributed to this gift.
After Jesus ascended to heaven, Luke records in the book of Acts, the inauguration of the Spirit.
“When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, ‘What does this mean?’â€Â
Peter stood up and addressed the crowd and said, “This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’â€Â
In the context of this phenomenon, the gift of tongues that was received by the apostles was the ability to speak to other nationals in their own native language. All those who spoke in tongues were Galileans, and yet the interpretation was received through many different native languages.
In the context of this environment Paul writes: ‘In the law it is written, “Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me.â€Â’
Paul explains this communication as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers.
Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit
Up until now, the gospel had not been preached among the Gentiles and had been exclusively ministered to the Jews.
There was a Gentile called Cornelius the Centurion, a man of faith, a righteous and God-fearing man. One day God spoke to Peter and told him to go to Cornelius and tell him of the good news of the gospel. While Peter was preaching, Cornelius and all his household believed and were baptised in the Holy Spirit.
The Jews that had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
The gift of tongues that was spoken here was not interpreted by the listeners, but rather a language of praise.
Paul confirms this in his directive and writes, For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
Paul meets the men of Ephesus
Luke records an instance when Paul came across some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, he told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is in Jesus.†On hearing this they were baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus and when Paul laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
This passage of scripture is possibly the most quoted passage to back up the theory that being ‘saved’ and being ‘baptised in the Holy Spirit’ are two separate experiences, and that speaking in tongues is proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
To clarify our train of thought it must be said, that to use the scripture as a theological premise for such a distortion of the gospel, is to take the gospel of faith and present it as a gospel of works – which is no gospel at all. Any scripture taken out of the context of which it is presented and used to backup a theological distortion, results in the presentation of a false gospel.
And Paul writes, ‘If anyone is preaching to you a gospel other that what you accepted let him be eternally condemned.’
Now let us look closely at the whole context of Luke’s record concerning these men of Ephesus. To do this, we will backpedal a little to cover Paul’s tracks leading up to this encounter.
Paul had been with the believers for some time in Corinth and now decided it was time to move on. So he left the brothers and accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila sailed for Syria. Upon arriving at Ephesus, Paul left Priscilla and Aquila and went on to debate the Scriptures with the Jews, preach the Gospel, and strengthen the disciples throughout the region of Galatia and Phrygia. While Paul was away, Priscilla and Aquila heard a man named Apollos preaching in the synagogue. He was a native of Alexandria and had come to Ephesus.
Luke writes that Apollos was a learned man with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.’
Priscilla and Aquila invited him to their home and explained to him as to the establishment of the new covenant. As Apollos was a humble man, and a man of faith he accepted the teachings of Priscilla and Aquila, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and went on to become one of the great apostles of the Christian faith.
Now we must understand that until the Holy Spirit had come upon Cornelius, the Gospel was exclusively preached as a promise to those under the law, and the baptism of John was only exercised under the umbrella of Judaism.
The twelve men that Paul met in Ephesus were all Jews, disciples of Apollos and knew only of the teachings ministered by Apollos prior to the up-date by Priscilla and Aquila. Yes! These men were also men of faith having been baptised by the baptism of John in preparation for the coming of the Messiah. They were eagerly awaiting the establishment of the new covenant, and along with all of us who believe, were marked in Him with the Seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.
Luke also records that as the Holy Spirit came upon them they spoke in tongues and prophesied. However, Paul does not say whether they all spoke in tongues and all prophesied or whether half of them spoke in tongues and the other half prophesied or whatever. Who knows? Nevertheless, we do know that the Holy Spirit came upon all of them.
We praise the Lord for the book of Acts and the dedication of Luke in recording these events.
However it would also do us good to remember that these events in themselves do not constitute a theological law that dictates what God must do to satisfy man’s interpretation of spiritual growth.
It would appear that the early church (especially the church of Corinth) had quite a struggle with the discipline required for the harmonious ministry of the gifts, especially the gift of tongues.
Paul writes a word of instruction, to the church of Corinth - of which we have a copy - and we should use it for correction among the Gentile church of today.
The real issue that Paul is addressing here is division among Gods people, and if the gifts of the spirit are not exercised in a manner of love and consideration for those around you, then you are nothing more than a resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal.
As the gifts are subject to the vessel, any inconsiderate practice of the gifts would be an abuse of God's grace and a stinking display of self-righteousness.
Right from the beginning of Paul's address on the gifts, he reminds us to follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no one understands him: He utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church maybe edified.
If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues and some who do not understand, or some unbelievers come in, will they not say you are out of your mind?
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.â€Â
Just in closing on this rather complex and controversial issue, it must be firmly established that the highest order of God’s calling is rooted in the gift of love and as Paul states, “and now I will show you the most excellent wayâ€Â
“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall kno fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.â€Â
[The above was taken from a document which I collaborated with a brother in Christ to produce.]
Mark records that just before Jesus ascended into heaven he appeared to his disciples and said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptised will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
This is the only record of Jesus referring to ‘speaking in tongues,’ and there doesn't seem to be any special significance attributed to this gift.
After Jesus ascended to heaven, Luke records in the book of Acts, the inauguration of the Spirit.
“When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven. When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans? Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language? Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!" Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, ‘What does this mean?’â€Â
Peter stood up and addressed the crowd and said, “This is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: ‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.’â€Â
In the context of this phenomenon, the gift of tongues that was received by the apostles was the ability to speak to other nationals in their own native language. All those who spoke in tongues were Galileans, and yet the interpretation was received through many different native languages.
In the context of this environment Paul writes: ‘In the law it is written, “Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners, I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me.â€Â’
Paul explains this communication as a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers.
Cornelius receives the Holy Spirit
Up until now, the gospel had not been preached among the Gentiles and had been exclusively ministered to the Jews.
There was a Gentile called Cornelius the Centurion, a man of faith, a righteous and God-fearing man. One day God spoke to Peter and told him to go to Cornelius and tell him of the good news of the gospel. While Peter was preaching, Cornelius and all his household believed and were baptised in the Holy Spirit.
The Jews that had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.
The gift of tongues that was spoken here was not interpreted by the listeners, but rather a language of praise.
Paul confirms this in his directive and writes, For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed, no one understands him; he utters mysteries with his spirit.
Paul meets the men of Ephesus
Luke records an instance when Paul came across some disciples and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?" "John's baptism," they replied.
Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance, he told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is in Jesus.†On hearing this they were baptised into the name of the Lord Jesus and when Paul laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. There were about twelve men in all.
This passage of scripture is possibly the most quoted passage to back up the theory that being ‘saved’ and being ‘baptised in the Holy Spirit’ are two separate experiences, and that speaking in tongues is proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
To clarify our train of thought it must be said, that to use the scripture as a theological premise for such a distortion of the gospel, is to take the gospel of faith and present it as a gospel of works – which is no gospel at all. Any scripture taken out of the context of which it is presented and used to backup a theological distortion, results in the presentation of a false gospel.
And Paul writes, ‘If anyone is preaching to you a gospel other that what you accepted let him be eternally condemned.’
Now let us look closely at the whole context of Luke’s record concerning these men of Ephesus. To do this, we will backpedal a little to cover Paul’s tracks leading up to this encounter.
Paul had been with the believers for some time in Corinth and now decided it was time to move on. So he left the brothers and accompanied by Priscilla and Aquila sailed for Syria. Upon arriving at Ephesus, Paul left Priscilla and Aquila and went on to debate the Scriptures with the Jews, preach the Gospel, and strengthen the disciples throughout the region of Galatia and Phrygia. While Paul was away, Priscilla and Aquila heard a man named Apollos preaching in the synagogue. He was a native of Alexandria and had come to Ephesus.
Luke writes that Apollos was a learned man with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.’
Priscilla and Aquila invited him to their home and explained to him as to the establishment of the new covenant. As Apollos was a humble man, and a man of faith he accepted the teachings of Priscilla and Aquila, received the baptism of the Holy Spirit and went on to become one of the great apostles of the Christian faith.
Now we must understand that until the Holy Spirit had come upon Cornelius, the Gospel was exclusively preached as a promise to those under the law, and the baptism of John was only exercised under the umbrella of Judaism.
The twelve men that Paul met in Ephesus were all Jews, disciples of Apollos and knew only of the teachings ministered by Apollos prior to the up-date by Priscilla and Aquila. Yes! These men were also men of faith having been baptised by the baptism of John in preparation for the coming of the Messiah. They were eagerly awaiting the establishment of the new covenant, and along with all of us who believe, were marked in Him with the Seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession.
Luke also records that as the Holy Spirit came upon them they spoke in tongues and prophesied. However, Paul does not say whether they all spoke in tongues and all prophesied or whether half of them spoke in tongues and the other half prophesied or whatever. Who knows? Nevertheless, we do know that the Holy Spirit came upon all of them.
We praise the Lord for the book of Acts and the dedication of Luke in recording these events.
However it would also do us good to remember that these events in themselves do not constitute a theological law that dictates what God must do to satisfy man’s interpretation of spiritual growth.
It would appear that the early church (especially the church of Corinth) had quite a struggle with the discipline required for the harmonious ministry of the gifts, especially the gift of tongues.
Paul writes a word of instruction, to the church of Corinth - of which we have a copy - and we should use it for correction among the Gentile church of today.
The real issue that Paul is addressing here is division among Gods people, and if the gifts of the spirit are not exercised in a manner of love and consideration for those around you, then you are nothing more than a resounding gong, or a clanging cymbal.
As the gifts are subject to the vessel, any inconsiderate practice of the gifts would be an abuse of God's grace and a stinking display of self-righteousness.
Right from the beginning of Paul's address on the gifts, he reminds us to follow the way of love and eagerly desire spiritual gifts, especially the gift of prophecy.
He who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Indeed no one understands him: He utters mysteries with his spirit. But everyone who prophesies speaks to men for their strengthening, encouragement and comfort. He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. He who prophesies is greater than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets so that the church maybe edified.
If the whole church comes together and everyone speaks in tongues and some who do not understand, or some unbelievers come in, will they not say you are out of your mind?
I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. But in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue.â€Â
Just in closing on this rather complex and controversial issue, it must be firmly established that the highest order of God’s calling is rooted in the gift of love and as Paul states, “and now I will show you the most excellent wayâ€Â
“If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall kno fully, even as I am fully known.
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.â€Â
[The above was taken from a document which I collaborated with a brother in Christ to produce.]
I
Imagican
Guest
And, I have previously mentioned this:
Mark was NOT an apostle. His gospel was written, most likely, about fifty to sixty years AFTER Christ's death. And written through 'second hand' information. It is sketchy at best, to base one's beliefs on the gospel of Mark. Not only did he NOT meet the requirements of an apostle, but MANY scholars also believe that the last eight verses of Marks gospel were not even written BY HIM. The context of the words that are used and the way in which they are used offers VERY strong indication that 'someone else' wrote the last eight verses. Either Mark NEVER finished it, or what he did write was lost.
So, where does that leave us? Matthew WAS an apostle. John WAS an apostle. Yet NEITHER of these that WERE present mentioned ANYTHING about what Mark offers as far as the words spoken BY CHRIST at their LAST meal together.
When we LOOK at the last verses of Mark, we see that it is QUITE likely that; having heard the story of Paul and the snake, having heard of Paul and Peter healing and 'raising the dead', after hearing of those that 'spoke in tongues', Mark, (or WHOEVER), wrote this gospel simply 'added' these words that may NOT have even been spoken.
I am NOT trying to raise doubt about the Bible. But MOST know that the Bible WAS written by MEN. And, there has been MUCH manipulation of scripture. That is WHY we are to READ the Word, but we are to FOLLOW The Spirit. For WITHOUT The Spirit to 'guide us', the words in the Bible are NOTHING other than that; WORDS. It is THROUGH The Spirit that those that WILL be given understanding RECEIVE IT. The Word is simply our means to learn HOW TO DISCERN what IS Truth and what IS NOT. And the Bible is NOT exactly The Word. It is the closest thing that we have but ANYONE that does a minimal amount of study in its formation realizes that there HAVE been 'things added' and most likely, 'things omitted' by those that wrote it. Can't blame them. They interpreted according to what they 'believed'. Many times unable to 'see' anything 'other than' what they had 'already been taught'.
So, as far as we can discern from what has been offered by CHRIST, the speaking in NEW TONGUES could simply be Christ telling His deciples, (those that were commisssioned to SPREAD The Word), they they would be 'given' the ability to SPEAK to others and COMMUNICATE to them in THEIR OWN LANGUAGES. The significance of this? WITHOUT HAVING LEARNED THEM. A GIFT.
And once again, Paul's OWN words concerning tongues offers a 'glimpse' of the 'significance' of tongues; IN the Church, I had rather speak FIVE words with understanding than 10,000 in an 'unknown tongue'. ANY idea how LONG it takes to speak 10,000 words? Yet it takes but a second to speak five.
And when we read what Paul offered concerning the PURPOSE for tongues, I am confused as to HOW THEY COULD EVEN BE USED IN THE MODERN CHURCH except as concerning NON BELIEVERS. For, at the 'time of Paul' there WAS NO NT Bible. So these WERE IN NEED of understanding that PERHAPS very well could have been revealed through tongues AS THE SPIRIT GAVE UTTERANCE AND WITH AN INTERPRETER. For WITHOUT an interpreter, tongues could serve NO PURPOSE IN The Church.
So, tongues for today? Can't give a 'complete' answer to this. But we DO KNOW, (those that choose to trust in GOD), WHAT tongues ARE and what they were FOR. It's up to US to accept this and move on from there. You see, Paul's letter to the Corinthians was NOT a letter of 'admonishment' but one of REBUKE. And WHAT is the MAIN focus of his rebuke? Those that he had expected to GROW, yet had become stagnant in their persuit of THEIR OWN EMULATION instead of the OFFERING of the LOVE THAT THEY HAD RECEIVED. For we see through his writtings that these were 'gathering to EAT' rather than 'remember'. These were seeking that 'first feeling' of Christ in their heart. These were MORE concerned with their OWN 'FEELINGS', (warm fuzzies), than spreading the love offered BY JESUS CHRIST and God His Father. These were very confused and has veered FROM The Spirit instead of TRUSTING IN IT AND FOLLOWING IT.
There is indication that there were 'other tongues' used in 'other religions' EXPECIALLY by groups of those that lived in PORT cities. Commerce brought 'other peoples' of 'other races'. And with these came 'their religions'. Corinth, at the time of Paul, WAS a MAJOR center of commerce involving peoples from ALL OVER The KNOWN world. Many scholars are in agreement that there WERE religions in this city that 'believed' in the USE OF TONGUES when worshiping thier gods. Perhaps what Paul was dealing with were these, that he loved SO, reverting BACK into their previous pagan ways through the use of tongues. WHO KNOWS? But we DO know that they were doing SOMETHING WRONG concerning tongues or Paul would NOT have wrote SO MUCH in REBUKE of their usage in Corinth.
So, for those that follow 'churches' that INSIST that tongues ARE for today; BEWARE!!! Beware of exactly 'what' you allow other to 'lead' you to BELIEVE. For I have spoken to those that I have PERSONALLY witnessed using 'some other' tongues that ARE NOT BIBLICAL. I have discussed the issue and these are SO intrenched in their 'BELIEF' that they are UNABLE to even 'see' the 'truth'. They have been 'patted on the back' by their pastors and their peers to the point that they are DEPENDANT upon the attention and the importance they PERCIEVE it 'gives them' in the congregation.
For those that are Petacostals and INSIST upon these 'tongues'. I know that these also believe in the 'laying on of hands'. Do you TRULY even 'think' that you can practice that which CONTRADICTS the Word and then be led BY The Spirit of God Almighty? Do you REALLY 'believe' that a pastor can 'wave his hands' and DROP people to the floor. NO, I didn't ask if you believe whether GOD can manifest Himself in the 'physical world'. The question is; do you TRULY believe that there are MEN that have this 'power'? Or are you 'aware' that this is MOSTLY an 'act' to gain a 'following'. That those that 'started this movement' also 'taught others'. And what they 'taught these others' was that there ARE MANY that will PLAY ALONG, JUST for the attention that it offers their LONELY SOULS.
Any taking offense to my words can compare them to SCRIPTURE. For those that KNOW what I am talking about, INCLUDING those that PRACTICE these 'rituals', (for even those that LEAD others into this type of behavior and belief KNOW better. They 'practice these 'dark arts' for ONE PURPOSE'; filthy lucres SAKE.
And the MOST amazing part is that MOST that 'follow them' follow THEM and NOT God. Most of these are OBLVIOUS to scripture and void of THE SPIRIT. NO, not void of 'a spirit', for Satan and his minions are VERY SPIRITUAL. But The Spirit is NOT present in a 'room full of demons'. WILL NOT DO IT.
For God allows US the choice to ACCEPT HIM, or to follow OUR OWN DESIRES. There ARE those that DO have an open heart and ARE TRULY seeking the TRUTH' that WILL be moved BY The Spirit to FLEE from such 'teachings of men'. But MOST will not even listen to words of wisdom or interpretation of scripture EXCEPT through the mouths of 'those that LEAD them'. And what does THIS SAY? These follow MEN rather than God through His Son.
Guys, we are NOT here to IMPRESS OURSELVES with feelings of SPIRITUALITY. BUT, Satan is well aware of the ALLURE of such and uses it in MANY ways. YES, EXPECIALLY IN THE CHURCHES. For what GOOD would it serve HIM to practice it ANYWHERE ELSE. Religion is JUST a 'word'. And to PRACTICE religion can be ANYTHING that one 'chooses' to believe in.
God does NOT want 'RELIGIOUS' people simply for the 'sake' of RELIGION. He wants CHILDREN that LOVE HIM and LOVE EACH OTHER like ONE BIG HAPPY FAMILY. He wants US to give as HE HAS GIVEN. Giving OF OURSELVES instead of TAKING simply for our OWN PERSONAL PLEASURE. He wants us ALL to 'be our brothers KEEPERS'. Looking out for those less able to 'look out for themselves'. Taking heed of our brothers NEEDs B E F O R E O U R O W N ! ! !
Anything that one is taught SHORT OF THIS is done for 'some other sake', some other DARK purpose other than that offered through The Spirit of God. For ANYONE that would teach you DIFFERENTLY than this do so FOR THEIR OWN SAKES and the sake of THEIR FATHER. Anyone surprised, For Satan himself WILL disguise himself as AN ANGEL OF LIGHT in order to decieve the masses into WORSHIPING HIM ABOVE THE ONE TRUE GOD. And for these? There WILL be punishment. For The Spirit IS there to guide us. EVEN WITHOUT a Bible. EVEN WITHOUT a church or a pastor. The Spirit of God IS the communicating AGENT of God that IS capable of leading people TO THE TRUTH, REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE. One must TRUST and believe though. And NOT in 'other men' or their demonic doctrines. TRUST IN GOD and BELIEVE in God and the Holy Spirit IS capable of REVEALING THE TRUTH.
MEC
Mark was NOT an apostle. His gospel was written, most likely, about fifty to sixty years AFTER Christ's death. And written through 'second hand' information. It is sketchy at best, to base one's beliefs on the gospel of Mark. Not only did he NOT meet the requirements of an apostle, but MANY scholars also believe that the last eight verses of Marks gospel were not even written BY HIM. The context of the words that are used and the way in which they are used offers VERY strong indication that 'someone else' wrote the last eight verses. Either Mark NEVER finished it, or what he did write was lost.
So, where does that leave us? Matthew WAS an apostle. John WAS an apostle. Yet NEITHER of these that WERE present mentioned ANYTHING about what Mark offers as far as the words spoken BY CHRIST at their LAST meal together.
When we LOOK at the last verses of Mark, we see that it is QUITE likely that; having heard the story of Paul and the snake, having heard of Paul and Peter healing and 'raising the dead', after hearing of those that 'spoke in tongues', Mark, (or WHOEVER), wrote this gospel simply 'added' these words that may NOT have even been spoken.
I am NOT trying to raise doubt about the Bible. But MOST know that the Bible WAS written by MEN. And, there has been MUCH manipulation of scripture. That is WHY we are to READ the Word, but we are to FOLLOW The Spirit. For WITHOUT The Spirit to 'guide us', the words in the Bible are NOTHING other than that; WORDS. It is THROUGH The Spirit that those that WILL be given understanding RECEIVE IT. The Word is simply our means to learn HOW TO DISCERN what IS Truth and what IS NOT. And the Bible is NOT exactly The Word. It is the closest thing that we have but ANYONE that does a minimal amount of study in its formation realizes that there HAVE been 'things added' and most likely, 'things omitted' by those that wrote it. Can't blame them. They interpreted according to what they 'believed'. Many times unable to 'see' anything 'other than' what they had 'already been taught'.
So, as far as we can discern from what has been offered by CHRIST, the speaking in NEW TONGUES could simply be Christ telling His deciples, (those that were commisssioned to SPREAD The Word), they they would be 'given' the ability to SPEAK to others and COMMUNICATE to them in THEIR OWN LANGUAGES. The significance of this? WITHOUT HAVING LEARNED THEM. A GIFT.
And once again, Paul's OWN words concerning tongues offers a 'glimpse' of the 'significance' of tongues; IN the Church, I had rather speak FIVE words with understanding than 10,000 in an 'unknown tongue'. ANY idea how LONG it takes to speak 10,000 words? Yet it takes but a second to speak five.
And when we read what Paul offered concerning the PURPOSE for tongues, I am confused as to HOW THEY COULD EVEN BE USED IN THE MODERN CHURCH except as concerning NON BELIEVERS. For, at the 'time of Paul' there WAS NO NT Bible. So these WERE IN NEED of understanding that PERHAPS very well could have been revealed through tongues AS THE SPIRIT GAVE UTTERANCE AND WITH AN INTERPRETER. For WITHOUT an interpreter, tongues could serve NO PURPOSE IN The Church.
So, tongues for today? Can't give a 'complete' answer to this. But we DO KNOW, (those that choose to trust in GOD), WHAT tongues ARE and what they were FOR. It's up to US to accept this and move on from there. You see, Paul's letter to the Corinthians was NOT a letter of 'admonishment' but one of REBUKE. And WHAT is the MAIN focus of his rebuke? Those that he had expected to GROW, yet had become stagnant in their persuit of THEIR OWN EMULATION instead of the OFFERING of the LOVE THAT THEY HAD RECEIVED. For we see through his writtings that these were 'gathering to EAT' rather than 'remember'. These were seeking that 'first feeling' of Christ in their heart. These were MORE concerned with their OWN 'FEELINGS', (warm fuzzies), than spreading the love offered BY JESUS CHRIST and God His Father. These were very confused and has veered FROM The Spirit instead of TRUSTING IN IT AND FOLLOWING IT.
There is indication that there were 'other tongues' used in 'other religions' EXPECIALLY by groups of those that lived in PORT cities. Commerce brought 'other peoples' of 'other races'. And with these came 'their religions'. Corinth, at the time of Paul, WAS a MAJOR center of commerce involving peoples from ALL OVER The KNOWN world. Many scholars are in agreement that there WERE religions in this city that 'believed' in the USE OF TONGUES when worshiping thier gods. Perhaps what Paul was dealing with were these, that he loved SO, reverting BACK into their previous pagan ways through the use of tongues. WHO KNOWS? But we DO know that they were doing SOMETHING WRONG concerning tongues or Paul would NOT have wrote SO MUCH in REBUKE of their usage in Corinth.
So, for those that follow 'churches' that INSIST that tongues ARE for today; BEWARE!!! Beware of exactly 'what' you allow other to 'lead' you to BELIEVE. For I have spoken to those that I have PERSONALLY witnessed using 'some other' tongues that ARE NOT BIBLICAL. I have discussed the issue and these are SO intrenched in their 'BELIEF' that they are UNABLE to even 'see' the 'truth'. They have been 'patted on the back' by their pastors and their peers to the point that they are DEPENDANT upon the attention and the importance they PERCIEVE it 'gives them' in the congregation.
For those that are Petacostals and INSIST upon these 'tongues'. I know that these also believe in the 'laying on of hands'. Do you TRULY even 'think' that you can practice that which CONTRADICTS the Word and then be led BY The Spirit of God Almighty? Do you REALLY 'believe' that a pastor can 'wave his hands' and DROP people to the floor. NO, I didn't ask if you believe whether GOD can manifest Himself in the 'physical world'. The question is; do you TRULY believe that there are MEN that have this 'power'? Or are you 'aware' that this is MOSTLY an 'act' to gain a 'following'. That those that 'started this movement' also 'taught others'. And what they 'taught these others' was that there ARE MANY that will PLAY ALONG, JUST for the attention that it offers their LONELY SOULS.
Any taking offense to my words can compare them to SCRIPTURE. For those that KNOW what I am talking about, INCLUDING those that PRACTICE these 'rituals', (for even those that LEAD others into this type of behavior and belief KNOW better. They 'practice these 'dark arts' for ONE PURPOSE'; filthy lucres SAKE.
And the MOST amazing part is that MOST that 'follow them' follow THEM and NOT God. Most of these are OBLVIOUS to scripture and void of THE SPIRIT. NO, not void of 'a spirit', for Satan and his minions are VERY SPIRITUAL. But The Spirit is NOT present in a 'room full of demons'. WILL NOT DO IT.
For God allows US the choice to ACCEPT HIM, or to follow OUR OWN DESIRES. There ARE those that DO have an open heart and ARE TRULY seeking the TRUTH' that WILL be moved BY The Spirit to FLEE from such 'teachings of men'. But MOST will not even listen to words of wisdom or interpretation of scripture EXCEPT through the mouths of 'those that LEAD them'. And what does THIS SAY? These follow MEN rather than God through His Son.
Guys, we are NOT here to IMPRESS OURSELVES with feelings of SPIRITUALITY. BUT, Satan is well aware of the ALLURE of such and uses it in MANY ways. YES, EXPECIALLY IN THE CHURCHES. For what GOOD would it serve HIM to practice it ANYWHERE ELSE. Religion is JUST a 'word'. And to PRACTICE religion can be ANYTHING that one 'chooses' to believe in.
God does NOT want 'RELIGIOUS' people simply for the 'sake' of RELIGION. He wants CHILDREN that LOVE HIM and LOVE EACH OTHER like ONE BIG HAPPY FAMILY. He wants US to give as HE HAS GIVEN. Giving OF OURSELVES instead of TAKING simply for our OWN PERSONAL PLEASURE. He wants us ALL to 'be our brothers KEEPERS'. Looking out for those less able to 'look out for themselves'. Taking heed of our brothers NEEDs B E F O R E O U R O W N ! ! !
Anything that one is taught SHORT OF THIS is done for 'some other sake', some other DARK purpose other than that offered through The Spirit of God. For ANYONE that would teach you DIFFERENTLY than this do so FOR THEIR OWN SAKES and the sake of THEIR FATHER. Anyone surprised, For Satan himself WILL disguise himself as AN ANGEL OF LIGHT in order to decieve the masses into WORSHIPING HIM ABOVE THE ONE TRUE GOD. And for these? There WILL be punishment. For The Spirit IS there to guide us. EVEN WITHOUT a Bible. EVEN WITHOUT a church or a pastor. The Spirit of God IS the communicating AGENT of God that IS capable of leading people TO THE TRUTH, REGARDLESS OF ANYTHING ELSE. One must TRUST and believe though. And NOT in 'other men' or their demonic doctrines. TRUST IN GOD and BELIEVE in God and the Holy Spirit IS capable of REVEALING THE TRUTH.
MEC
Jeff Mills
Member
I am confised. Who are you referring to???
I
Imagican
Guest
The post was directed towards Mark's gospel.
Guys, all I have attempted to do is offer that we have MUCH instruction offered by Paul concerning 'tongues'. And, as FAR as we KNOW, the statement of Mark concerning 'them that believe' COULD be referring to NOTHING more than the 'gift of tongues' as outlined BY Paul and what we have in evidence upon Pentecost. That the 'tongues' that would be spoken by 'them that believe' could VERY well have been 'other LANGUAGES. NOT some 'voice of angels' or 'gibberish' that CANNOT be understood. For we have those that witnessed the apostles 'speaking in tongues' STATING OUTRIGHT that they UNDERSTOOD the 'words' that were being spoken by those that SPOKE IN TONGUES. Not ONLY were their words understood, but those that understood them stated that their words were spoken in the SAME accent and WAY in which those of their OWN villages spoke.
It's kind of like us visiting other PLACES where English is spoken. We can OFTEN tell WHERE a 'person' comes from, (their country of origin), simply by their accent and inflection. Those that witnessed tongues being spoken actually recognized their OWN PARTICULAR INFLECTIONS in the tongues of those that 'spoke to THEM'.
What my previous post was concerning was basically this; The commission that is mentioned in Mark mentions NOTHING of an 'unknown LANGUAGE' but of 'unknown 'tongues'. To UNDERSTAND exactly WHAT is referred to in Mark, we MUST discern, (through the REST of scripture) WHAT tongues ARE. EVERY indication of the FIRST tongues USED is that they WERE LANGUAGES; KNOWN languages. Just NOT KNOWN by those that had not LEARNED them, yet WERE able to speak to those that used these languages as 'their NATIVE tongues' AS The Spirit GAVE utterance.
I haven't been able to FIND any other tongues in the Word. And to speak in a language that 'CANNOT be UNDERSTOOD', Paul offers, is USELESS. It's like a flute that DOES NOT make a 'distinctive sound'. HOW could one KNOW what SOUND the 'flute' MAKES if the sound is NOT distinctive TO THE FLUTE?
And Paul even explains that Prophecy, (the ability to discern the WILL of God towards mankind), is what IS to be 'sought after'. That the ability to instruct others in the understanding of God IS MUCH MORE important than simply being able to 'communicate' with those of 'other languages.
And, the last verses of Mark may have VERY well been 'added' by 'someone' other than Mark. For it seems like this gospel just 'goes back' through others in it's offering of 'the signs' that follow them that believe. Like AFTER hearing MANY OF the stories of the 'signs', SOMEONE added these WORDS to the gospel of Mark. HOW ELSE does one explain that Matthew nor John recording these things that Christ 'supposedly said', and they WERE THERE? Mark WAS NOT.
The REASON that I point this out is that there are NEW denominations, (hundred years or so), that base almost their ENTIRE doctrine on the words written by Mark in the last chapter of this Gospel. Base almost their entire doctrine on something written by a man that wasn't EVEN THERE when these words were 'supposedly' spoken. And IF the WAY that these words WERE recorded was through supposition, (having heard that these things HAD happened and simply inserting them for this REASON), it would be REAL easy for this to 'become' SERIOUSLY FALSE DOCTRINE. For HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that something SO important could have been MISSED by Matthew AND John who actually witnessed the event that Mark says SOMETHING DIFFERENT happened during. It would seem that IF these words truly HAD been spoken, Matthew AND John would BOTH have heard and WROTE DOWN what they heard.
MEC
Guys, all I have attempted to do is offer that we have MUCH instruction offered by Paul concerning 'tongues'. And, as FAR as we KNOW, the statement of Mark concerning 'them that believe' COULD be referring to NOTHING more than the 'gift of tongues' as outlined BY Paul and what we have in evidence upon Pentecost. That the 'tongues' that would be spoken by 'them that believe' could VERY well have been 'other LANGUAGES. NOT some 'voice of angels' or 'gibberish' that CANNOT be understood. For we have those that witnessed the apostles 'speaking in tongues' STATING OUTRIGHT that they UNDERSTOOD the 'words' that were being spoken by those that SPOKE IN TONGUES. Not ONLY were their words understood, but those that understood them stated that their words were spoken in the SAME accent and WAY in which those of their OWN villages spoke.
It's kind of like us visiting other PLACES where English is spoken. We can OFTEN tell WHERE a 'person' comes from, (their country of origin), simply by their accent and inflection. Those that witnessed tongues being spoken actually recognized their OWN PARTICULAR INFLECTIONS in the tongues of those that 'spoke to THEM'.
What my previous post was concerning was basically this; The commission that is mentioned in Mark mentions NOTHING of an 'unknown LANGUAGE' but of 'unknown 'tongues'. To UNDERSTAND exactly WHAT is referred to in Mark, we MUST discern, (through the REST of scripture) WHAT tongues ARE. EVERY indication of the FIRST tongues USED is that they WERE LANGUAGES; KNOWN languages. Just NOT KNOWN by those that had not LEARNED them, yet WERE able to speak to those that used these languages as 'their NATIVE tongues' AS The Spirit GAVE utterance.
I haven't been able to FIND any other tongues in the Word. And to speak in a language that 'CANNOT be UNDERSTOOD', Paul offers, is USELESS. It's like a flute that DOES NOT make a 'distinctive sound'. HOW could one KNOW what SOUND the 'flute' MAKES if the sound is NOT distinctive TO THE FLUTE?
And Paul even explains that Prophecy, (the ability to discern the WILL of God towards mankind), is what IS to be 'sought after'. That the ability to instruct others in the understanding of God IS MUCH MORE important than simply being able to 'communicate' with those of 'other languages.
And, the last verses of Mark may have VERY well been 'added' by 'someone' other than Mark. For it seems like this gospel just 'goes back' through others in it's offering of 'the signs' that follow them that believe. Like AFTER hearing MANY OF the stories of the 'signs', SOMEONE added these WORDS to the gospel of Mark. HOW ELSE does one explain that Matthew nor John recording these things that Christ 'supposedly said', and they WERE THERE? Mark WAS NOT.
The REASON that I point this out is that there are NEW denominations, (hundred years or so), that base almost their ENTIRE doctrine on the words written by Mark in the last chapter of this Gospel. Base almost their entire doctrine on something written by a man that wasn't EVEN THERE when these words were 'supposedly' spoken. And IF the WAY that these words WERE recorded was through supposition, (having heard that these things HAD happened and simply inserting them for this REASON), it would be REAL easy for this to 'become' SERIOUSLY FALSE DOCTRINE. For HOW IS IT POSSIBLE that something SO important could have been MISSED by Matthew AND John who actually witnessed the event that Mark says SOMETHING DIFFERENT happened during. It would seem that IF these words truly HAD been spoken, Matthew AND John would BOTH have heard and WROTE DOWN what they heard.
MEC