bluegirl
Member
Exactly!
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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A Reprobate Mind
- Thread starter Lewis
- Start date
Jethro Bodine
Member
But what do we do with the sanctified believers in Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB trampling on the forgiveness of God they have received in Christ by turning their backs on that forgiveness and willfully sinning?
Jethro Bodine
Member
2 Peter 2:1 NASB
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2 Peter 2:20-21 NASB
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
Remember, we're talking about whether passages about reprobate minds should be applied to ourselves alone, or not. Peter describes the reprobate and warns us that they will arise among us.
th1b.taylor
Member
I'm not the sharpest knife in the block and I know it better than most but I miss the flow, here. The reprobate of Romans one are described in the preceding verses. Rom. 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Would I have my way I would excuse a couple of groups that I might see my mom, dad and older brother but that is not my choice.
My brother would tell you in a heart beat that he was saved as he threw back a shot of good bourbon and cursed "those thieving, greedy, Jews." Joey knew the truth but held it in unrighteousness. In prison for robbery, he learned a perverted Gospel, much like the perverted New Covenant Gospel I have bumped my head on a few times, one that includes Replacement theology.
The truth is that any man, woman or child over the age of accountability that distorts the gospel, denies the Gospel written on their hearts or pretends they are members of the Family of the Christ are those He has turned over to a reprobate mind. It's not very hard, we must learn to deny self, read the scriptures, believe the scriptures, teach the scriptures and as closely as we can, while tempted by an, live the scriptures. It's called by this old man, Basic Christianity.
The Hebrew word used as reprobate in Romans 1:28 is Adokimos, it means to be rejected, to be cast away. It's a harsh word but that is the word that God chose to use. A person with a reprobate mind has been rejected by God and this only after the person had already been accepted by God.
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Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
There is no excuse because God has made Himself known to all men.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Their hearts were darkened. The case is not that their hearts were always darkened, it says their hearts “were” darkened. Because they did not honor Him as God or give thanks... instead they became futile in their speculations and then their hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
They were not always fools, it says they “became” fools. They weren’t always fools but they became fools.
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 *and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Can you see? God gave them over to these things because of their practice. They weren’t this way and then they became this way.
Let’s not forget the use of the word reprobate. Adokimos.
The result of thereprobatemind? Yep, rejected and cast away. These are people without excuse. They could see God because God makes Himself known to all so that no one is without excuse.
Look at verse 32, not only did they know God but they knew the ordinances of God and knew these such things were worthy of death, BUT they did it anyway and even give whole-hearted approval to those who do those things. They new it was wrong but were just fine with that. Their conscience was seered and their hearts were hardened.
There is no excuse because God has made Himself known to all men.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Their hearts were darkened. The case is not that their hearts were always darkened, it says their hearts “were” darkened. Because they did not honor Him as God or give thanks... instead they became futile in their speculations and then their hearts were darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
They were not always fools, it says they “became” fools. They weren’t always fools but they became fools.
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 *and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Can you see? God gave them over to these things because of their practice. They weren’t this way and then they became this way.
Let’s not forget the use of the word reprobate. Adokimos.
The result of thereprobatemind? Yep, rejected and cast away. These are people without excuse. They could see God because God makes Himself known to all so that no one is without excuse.
Look at verse 32, not only did they know God but they knew the ordinances of God and knew these such things were worthy of death, BUT they did it anyway and even give whole-hearted approval to those who do those things. They new it was wrong but were just fine with that. Their conscience was seered and their hearts were hardened.
Deborah13
Member
Good post, Jesse.
I think this is what Jesus was talking about when He rebuke the Jewish leaders. That they knew the truth about Jesus the Messiah, not only did they refuse to come in to Him but kept others from coming in.
Mat 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
bluegirl
Member
I don't know. Shouldn't God take care of that? While if I were to see someone off the rails and maybe I would distance myself what else could I do biblically other than wait and pray?
God doesn't force Himself upon people, if they are going to turn their backs on Him, then that's their choice. He has done His part, we need to do ours.
We don't lose our freewill after we accept Christ.
Smack them upside the head.......haha
I think you're right, we can pray, we can also show them by example in how we live and show them the love of the Lord.
th1b.taylor
Member
Luke 12:53 "They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
We love Jesus and that love separates us from the world or we go to Hell with them. This is a hard teaching but it is the truth.
Jethro Bodine
Member
The point was, if we are going to have a doctrine that says Christians can not be turned over to a reprobate mind, what do we do with the passage in Hebrews 10:26-30 NASB that talks about sanctified people having no sacrifice for sin left for them because they continued to sin willingly after receiving the truth, trampling on the blood of the covenant that sanctified them?
Deborah13
Member
I think we need to be more clear when we use words like 'force', as used in your sentence. What do you mean by God does not 'force' Himself on people?
In my experience, God can be quite forceful in His dealings with us.
bluegirl
Member
It reminds me of a situation I am aware of in life. The person absolutely claims to love God and follow Jesus. Yet persists in certain delusions and does not SEE that these are contrary to following Jesus. This person would defend Jesus to the end in a conversation. Yet when asked to live certain aspects of the message, would be horrified and consider it wrong, does not see this as being connected to being Christian. A complete disconnect. Meanwhile, the person lives in fear of offending God. (Is Catholic) Now, this person seems to have fear of the Lord when it comes to specific rules like going to church, believing in Jesus, not committing a mortal sin etc. (Yeah, I know, the pecking order of sins bit). Yet, when it comes to following the heart of Jesus' message, seems to completely not even be aware it exists, the law of Love for example. And when I see this I really have no idea how to take any of it. Is the person good but I just can't see it due to the splinter in my own eye? I don't know. So instead of judging I just pray on it and try to practice the love of Jesus. (This person is quite elderly now, and fragile, so I don't attempt to push them or correct them.) Can some one be saved who is sincere but blind. Scary.
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If a person is outright rejecting Him, He's not going to take their freewill away, He "lets" them make that choice. This is what this whole thread is about, He gives them over, AFTER He has persevered in trying to get them to follow Him.
A rapist forces himself onto another person - taking away their free choice in the matter. This is not how God works, even in the OT He was asking the Israelites to reason with Him, not forcing them to reason, not forcing them to follow Him, it's a choice we all have.
bluegirl
Member
This is really really important and once this particular passage is really embraced a lot of things that go on make sense and a lot of other biblical passages are illuminated too. Thank you for this.
My thought when reading this is that we are all at different spiritual maturity levels, as we mature, God reveals more to us, our wisdom grows and our discernment is increased.
I am convicted not to drink, other people drink and are not convicted - a sin for one person is not necessarily a sin for another.
Deborah13
Member
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
What is God's description of what this sin looks like, or the cause of it? Wilfully is an adverb describing the verb sin.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1596: ἑκουσίως
ἑκουσίως, adverb (from Euripides down), voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord: Hebrews 10:26 (ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν (A. V. to sin willfully) is tacitly opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness); 1 Peter 5:2.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1596.htm
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/10.htm
Above are the words of the Apologist and Theologian, Adam Clarke. He was a Methodist and did believe that man could forfeit his salvation. I agree with his interpretation of this scripture.
I'd add that we have no why of knowing if someone is at this point. We don't know how God may still be working in their lives and frankly they may not know it either. Only God knows the heart of that man. Only God determines when that man's story is over.
What is God's description of what this sin looks like, or the cause of it? Wilfully is an adverb describing the verb sin.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1596: ἑκουσίως
ἑκουσίως, adverb (from Euripides down), voluntarily, willingly, of one's own accord: Hebrews 10:26 (ἑκουσίως ἁμαρτάνειν (A. V. to sin willfully) is tacitly opposed to sins committed inconsiderately, and from ignorance or from weakness); 1 Peter 5:2.
http://biblehub.com/greek/1596.htm
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/hebrews/10.htm
Above are the words of the Apologist and Theologian, Adam Clarke. He was a Methodist and did believe that man could forfeit his salvation. I agree with his interpretation of this scripture.
I'd add that we have no why of knowing if someone is at this point. We don't know how God may still be working in their lives and frankly they may not know it either. Only God knows the heart of that man. Only God determines when that man's story is over.
bluegirl
Member
Amen! I agree. Only ;God knows, which is all the more reason we must love our neighbor and be cautious of judging others.