A Scenario

[jasonc]

Have you considered that when the 144,000 stand before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Rev 14:1), they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (Rev 14:3) which were already there before them?

they song the song of moses. that is the torah from exodus to deuteromony and may also include genesis. how many non temple raised jews that are saved will know the torah that well?

 

[Eugene]

they song the song of moses. that is the torah from exodus to deuteromony and may also include genesis. how many non temple raised jews that are saved will know the torah that well?

They won't know those things brother. That may why they're chosen as the wise virgins (Rev 14:4) of the last part of the church to be caught up; they were ready, filled with the Spirit (Eye salve) and just as they did on earth they follow Christ (Rev 14:4).

When it says in Rev 14:3 "no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth", I don't imagine that there's not one that can't learn it per say, but they cannot say it from experience. E.g., a person describes the pain of cancer, and I can verbally repeat what they say without ever having any idea of what they felt.

 

[Kathi]

It will be a day just like any other day. In some places, the sun will be shining. In others, there will be precipitation. Some people will go to work. Some will go to school. Some people will clean the house, take a walk, ride a bike, or do any of the many things that people do on an ordinary day - but this will NOT be an ordinary day. It will be the first day of the Tribulation.
In an instant, suddenly, out of nowhere, 5 million people (MY number) will disappear. They will vanish into thin air. Suddenly pilotless planes will crash, killing whatever occupants were on the plane and possibly killing people on the ground. Driverless buses will crash. Unoccupied cars will slam into occupied cars or pedestrians, killing and injuring others.
Federal, state, and local governments will be puzzled. The worldwide media will be wondering what happened. Eventually, some of the media members will remember the stories, that some Christians used to tell about how one day they would be whisked away to Heaven. They will remember that these people called this event the Rapture.
Some of them will also remember the stories that this event will signal that an evil dictator will soon make his presence felt. They will tell the world to be on the lookout for this evil man, who will be allied with an evil religious man.




When referring to the End Times, the Bible is filled with one word - Deception.
Jesus Christ said that "many will be deceived".
The Elect will be deceived, if that were possible.

In the scenario that I have presented, which is the scenario that those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture preach, there won't be any deception. NO ONE will be fooled.
"That man is the man who is supposed to be the evil dictator known as the antichrist".

Either the Bible is wrong when it talked about deception, or this scenario of a Pre-Trib Rapture is wrong.
You can decide for yourself.

I don't know which position you take so I am hesitant to answer.I have gotten some rude replies to my stance as Pre-trib.

 

[Kathi]

The antichrist is alive today. We don't know who he is but he will be announced to his position of power after the rapture.

This is true just as we know the next president of the USA is alive but we don't know who he or she is.

There is no deception there.

How do you know that the Antichrist is alive today?

 

[Kathi]

I think the rapture or no rapture theory is the most debated subject right now.Why?

 

[Blain]

I think the rapture or no rapture theory is the most debated subject right now.Why?

because of how important it is. It would not surprise me one bit to be mocked and ppl be rude to me for my pretribe belief. But one should ask themselves when doing this why does this offend me so and wwJd? I once debated with a post trib believer who mocked and laughed at my belief and when I asked her why she did so all the time she said because the pretrib belief deserves to be mocked.
the pretrib debate is the most aggressive debate when it comes to any rapture belief and is the one that seems to really upset ppl. the question is why? Why does our belief offend ppl so much?
they often ask for scripture to prove our belief but upon showing it to them It doesnt matter because even before you show it they made up their mind to brand it false even if it does prove it

 

[Kathi]

because of how important it is. It would not surprise me one bit to be mocked and ppl be rude to me for my pretribe belief. But one should ask themselves when doing this why does this offend me so and wwJd? I once debated with a post trib believer who mocked and laughed at my belief and when I asked her why she did so all the time she said because the pretrib belief deserves to be mocked.
the pretrib debate is the most aggressive debate when it comes to any rapture belief and is the one that seems to really upset ppl. the question is why? Why does our belief offend ppl so much?
they often ask for scripture to prove our belief but upon showing it to them It doesnt matter because even before you show it they made up their mind to brand it false even if it does prove it

Do you think it is fear?

 

[Gary]

I think the rapture or no rapture theory is the most debated subject right now.Why?

because of how important it is.

Why is it important?
.

 

[Blain]

Do you think it is fear?

no I think it may be many things one could be fear but one I often see is pride. Many dont want to be wrong so they refuse to listen and are not willing to learn. do u recall the discussion we had about finding the truth especially when it comes to bible prophecy?

 

[Blain]

Why is it important?
.

Because of how dangerously close both the rapture and the tribulation are

 

[Kathi]

Because of how dangerously close both the rapture and the tribulation are

I feel that it is very close Blain.

 

[Kathi]

no I think it may be many things one could be fear but one I often see is pride. Many dont want to be wrong so they refuse to listen and are not willing to learn. do u recall the discussion we had about finding the truth especially when it comes to bible prophecy?

Exactly.I can handle the different interpretations.I can debate kindly.Some people are just angry and downright hostile that the pre-trib is wrong and their theory is right.

 

[Gary]

Because of how dangerously close both the rapture and the tribulation are

What if a believer was unaware of the rapture doctrine? Would that have an affect on their salvation?
.

 

[jasonc]

They won't know those things brother. That may why they're chosen as the wise virgins (Rev 14:4) of the last part of the church to be caught up; they were ready, filled with the Spirit (Eye salve) and just as they did on earth they follow Christ (Rev 14:4).

When it says in Rev 14:3 "no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth", I don't imagine that there's not one that can't learn it per say, but they cannot say it from experience. E.g., a person describes the pain of cancer, and I can verbally repeat what they say without ever having any idea of what they felt.

the torah is it central Christians or is it not? besides oral recitation and its accuracy are gone. we cranman still do this and as all jews. we reasearched our lineage it goes back to the oddessa , Russia and my surname could mean crimea. the reason I mention the song of moses as that is recited to remind jews of what they were redeemed from and the promise of the YHWH to them.i also believe that this has past. james is written to the twelve tribes of isreal.

 

[Blain]

What if a believer was unaware of the rapture doctrine? Would that have an affect on their salvation?
.

of course not but for those of us who know of these things we are to seek the truth of it in orrder to teach the truth but in seeking the truth you may not like what u find and may refuse to accept it as truth

 

[jasonc]

What if a believer was unaware of the rapture doctrine? Would that have an affect on their salvation?
.

no, if it did then im damned and so are the many that deny the rapture idea as taught today. the older theologian saw it as removal of the faithful ere the judgement with no trib. its not a rapture that is commonly taught today.

 

[Gary]

of course not but for those of us who know of these things we are to seek the truth of it in orrder to teach the truth but in seeking the truth you may not like what u find and may refuse to accept it as truth

Yeah, I run into that all the time. It must be that pride thing you mentioned.
.

 

[Blain]

Yeah, I run into that all the time. It must be that pride thing you mentioned.
.

Maybe maybe not, i was talking about the ones i have debated with and knew. i dont know you or your heart so whether its pride or merely just a different view Idk

 

[Kathi]

What if a believer was unaware of the rapture doctrine? Would that have an affect on their salvation?
.

I do not think it affects anyone's salvation whether they believe in the rapture,no rapture,pre-trib,post-trib,no trib.It would be ludicrous to say that it made a difference.And if there is no rapture and if God wants us to go through the tribulation I am prepared for that.I just don't see that or feel that in scripture.

 

[Deborah13]

no I think it may be many things one could be fear but one I often see is pride. Many dont want to be wrong so they refuse to listen and are not willing to learn. do u recall the discussion we had about finding the truth especially when it comes to bible prophecy?

I know there are at least some members here who believed in pre-trib rapture and changed their minds.
Usually people who get carried away and overly emotional get that way about all different kinds of things, not just the end times beliefs. Unfortunately the Church is not perfect so there are all kinds of people who God isn't finished with yet.

I think the rapture or no rapture theory is the most debated subject right now.Why?

Because so many Christians believe we are in the final years before Jesus returns?