A Scenario

[John S]

It will be a day just like any other day. In some places, the sun will be shining. In others, there will be precipitation. Some people will go to work. Some will go to school. Some people will clean the house, take a walk, ride a bike, or do any of the many things that people do on an ordinary day - but this will NOT be an ordinary day. It will be the first day of the Tribulation.
In an instant, suddenly, out of nowhere, 5 million people (MY number) will disappear. They will vanish into thin air. Suddenly pilotless planes will crash, killing whatever occupants were on the plane and possibly killing people on the ground. Driverless buses will crash. Unoccupied cars will slam into occupied cars or pedestrians, killing and injuring others.
Federal, state, and local governments will be puzzled. The worldwide media will be wondering what happened. Eventually, some of the media members will remember the stories, that some Christians used to tell about how one day they would be whisked away to Heaven. They will remember that these people called this event the Rapture.
Some of them will also remember the stories that this event will signal that an evil dictator will soon make his presence felt. They will tell the world to be on the lookout for this evil man, who will be allied with an evil religious man.




When referring to the End Times, the Bible is filled with one word - Deception.
Jesus Christ said that "many will be deceived".
The Elect will be deceived, if that were possible.

In the scenario that I have presented, which is the scenario that those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture preach, there won't be any deception. NO ONE will be fooled.
"That man is the man who is supposed to be the evil dictator known as the antichrist".

Either the Bible is wrong when it talked about deception, or this scenario of a Pre-Trib Rapture is wrong.
You can decide for yourself.

 

[Deborah13]

It will be a day just like any other day. In some places, the sun will be shining. In others, there will be precipitation. Some people will go to work. Some will go to school. Some people will clean the house, take a walk, ride a bike, or do any of the many things that people do on an ordinary day - but this will NOT be an ordinary day. It will be the first day of the Tribulation.
In an instant, suddenly, out of nowhere, 5 million people (MY number) will disappear. They will vanish into thin air. Suddenly pilotless planes will crash, killing whatever occupants were on the plane and possibly killing people on the ground. Driverless buses will crash. Unoccupied cars will slam into occupied cars or pedestrians, killing and injuring others.
Federal, state, and local governments will be puzzled. The worldwide media will be wondering what happened. Eventually, some of the media members will remember the stories, that some Christians used to tell about how one day they would be whisked away to Heaven. They will remember that these people called this event the Rapture.
Some of them will also remember the stories that this event will signal that an evil dictator will soon make his presence felt. They will tell the world to be on the lookout for this evil man, who will be allied with an evil religious man.




When referring to the End Times, the Bible is filled with one word - Deception.
Jesus Christ said that "many will be deceived".
The Elect will be deceived, if that were possible.

In the scenario that I have presented, which is the scenario that those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture preach, there won't be any deception. NO ONE will be fooled.
"That man is the man who is supposed to be the evil dictator known as the antichrist".

Either the Bible is wrong when it talked about deception, or this scenario of a Pre-Trib Rapture is wrong.
You can decide for yourself.

I agree with you. But I can look in my Matthew Henry commentary and old Bible notes from 30 yrs. ago and see where I studied this for the first time and I was blinded by what I had been taught as a new believer. I didn't really look at it again until a couple of years ago because of reading things on this forum and then reading scriptures much more carefully.
God didn't take Noah off the earth, the thorns are plucked up and burnt, not the good wheat harvested off the earth, Jesus said "flee to the mountains" not "I'm going to take you away."

 

[Eugene]

Dear Sister Deborah13, have you ever read all that with the thought of Mat 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", and of course that is a physical salvation but still depends upon belief in Christ to be the elect.

Mat 24:40, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" being the time of the beginning of the millennium when it is the unbelievers taken away, and the elect entering an earthly peace unparalleled until that time. Where are the unbelievers taken? To await judgment at the appointed time just as those of Noah's time.

 

[John S]

I agree with you. But I can look in my Matthew Henry commentary and old Bible notes from 30 yrs. ago and see where I studied this for the first time and I was blinded by what I had been taught as a new believer. I didn't really look at it again until a couple of years ago because of reading things on this forum and then reading scriptures much more carefully.
God didn't take Noah off the earth, the thorns are plucked up and burnt, not the good wheat harvested off the earth, Jesus said "flee to the mountains" not "I'm going to take you away."

I'm Sorry - What exactly are you agreeing with me on?

 

[Deborah13]

I'm Sorry - What exactly are you agreeing with me on?

I agree with you that there isn't a pre-trib rapture. Did I misunderstand you?

 

[Deborah13]

Dear Sister Deborah13, have you ever read all that with the thought of Mat 24:13, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved", and of course that is a physical salvation but still depends upon belief in Christ to be the elect.

Mat 24:40, "Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left" being the time of the beginning of the millennium when it is the unbelievers taken away, and the elect entering an earthly peace unparalleled until that time. Where are the unbelievers taken? To await judgment at the appointed time just as those of Noah's time.

Eugene, I'm really not sure what you are wondering if I see. I'm sorry. So all I can do is tell you what I see in the context of when it was spoken. Please feel free to respond in anyway you feel led to, I can assure you I would never be offended by what you say, as I think I have clearly seen your heart.

Matt. 24:13 because of what is said around it sounds very much to me like Rev. 2:10.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Jesus to the hypocrites of the temple.
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

As for Matt. 24:40 I'm still rather at odds from v37 on. But when I get to v51, I get the understanding that He is talking about the natural, nation of Israel and the end of the Mosaic temple system.
Mat 24:51 and will cut him off, and his portion with the hypocrites will appoint; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.
and I see...
Luk 13:28 `There shall be there the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, when ye may see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the reign of God, and yourselves being cast out without;
Luk 13:29 and they shall come from east and west, and from north and south, and shall recline in the reign of God,
Luk 13:30 and lo, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last.'

Jesus speaking of the centurion...
Mat 8:10 And Jesus having heard, did wonder, and said to those following, `Verily I say to you, not even in Israel so great faith have I found;
Mat 8:11 and I say to you, that many from east and west shall come and recline (at meat) with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the reign of the heavens,
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness--there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'

Blessings to you and your's,

P.S. again feel free to show me flaws in my understanding. Or maybe I misunderstood your whole post?

 

[Sinthesis]

I agree that the pre-trib rapture scenario as commonly envisioned is silly. The trick is to take the biblical evidence used to support the pre-trib rapture and apply it creatively to support another phenomenon(s) which makes more sense.

 

[John S]

I agree with you that there isn't a pre-trib rapture. Did I misunderstand you?

Thank You - I just wasn't sure what you were agreeing with me on.

 

[Eugene]

It will be a day just like any other day. In some places, the sun will be shining. In others, there will be precipitation. Some people will go to work. Some will go to school. Some people will clean the house, take a walk, ride a bike, or do any of the many things that people do on an ordinary day - but this will NOT be an ordinary day. It will be the first day of the Tribulation.
In an instant, suddenly, out of nowhere, 5 million people (MY number) will disappear. They will vanish into thin air. Suddenly pilotless planes will crash, killing whatever occupants were on the plane and possibly killing people on the ground. Driverless buses will crash. Unoccupied cars will slam into occupied cars or pedestrians, killing and injuring others.
Federal, state, and local governments will be puzzled. The worldwide media will be wondering what happened. Eventually, some of the media members will remember the stories, that some Christians used to tell about how one day they would be whisked away to Heaven. They will remember that these people called this event the Rapture.
Some of them will also remember the stories that this event will signal that an evil dictator will soon make his presence felt. They will tell the world to be on the lookout for this evil man, who will be allied with an evil religious man.




When referring to the End Times, the Bible is filled with one word - Deception.
Jesus Christ said that "many will be deceived".
The Elect will be deceived, if that were possible.

In the scenario that I have presented, which is the scenario that those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture preach, there won't be any deception. NO ONE will be fooled.
"That man is the man who is supposed to be the evil dictator known as the antichrist".

Either the Bible is wrong when it talked about deception, or this scenario of a Pre-Trib Rapture is wrong.
You can decide for yourself.

John S, you seem to have taken and presented a humorous parody of the “Left behind series”, and I have to wonder at your thoughts of any of the elect ever being caught up to God, and what that scene might present to the world. Has God got the power to do such a thing regardless of man’s inconvenience? As you put it: “How one day they would be whisked away to Heaven.” Oh my! Next thing I know there’ll be some elect taken through the grave, and their spirits becoming absent from the body and present with the Lord. Thanks.

 

[Eugene]

Eugene, I'm really not sure what you are wondering if I see. I'm sorry. So all I can do is tell you what I see in the context of when it was spoken. Please feel free to respond in anyway you feel led to, I can assure you I would never be offended by what you say, as I think I have clearly seen your heart.

Matt. 24:13 because of what is said around it sounds very much to me like Rev. 2:10.

Rev 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

Jesus to the hypocrites of the temple.
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

As for Matt. 24:40 I'm still rather at odds from v37 on. But when I get to v51, I get the understanding that He is talking about the natural, nation of Israel and the end of the Mosaic temple system.
Mat 24:51 and will cut him off, and his portion with the hypocrites will appoint; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.
and I see...
Luk 13:28 `There shall be there the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth, when ye may see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the reign of God, and yourselves being cast out without;
Luk 13:29 and they shall come from east and west, and from north and south, and shall recline in the reign of God,
Luk 13:30 and lo, there are last who shall be first, and there are first who shall be last.'

Jesus speaking of the centurion...
Mat 8:10 And Jesus having heard, did wonder, and said to those following, `Verily I say to you, not even in Israel so great faith have I found;
Mat 8:11 and I say to you, that many from east and west shall come and recline (at meat) with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the reign of the heavens,
Mat 8:12 but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness--there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.'

Blessings to you and your's,

P.S. again feel free to show me flaws in my understanding. Or maybe I misunderstood your whole post?

Dear Sister Deborah13, thanks for your reply. I reckon the best way to explain my position is to say that enduring in any manner has nothing to do with our salvation other in the reward available to us. You mentioned that which the Smyrna church suffers in Rev 2:10 and they to me represent the full overcomers of the elect of the church which are told to have a crown that die before our Lord’s coming. The other portion of the church said to have a crown of the seven churches mentioned is the Philadelphia assembly that will be alive which will not precede Smyrna.

 

[Blain]

I was going on a walk one sunny afternoon it was just a normal day. i ask god-lord what kind of day can we expect your return? i heard a voice say it will be on a day like this. enough said

 

[Deborah13]

Dear Sister Deborah13, thanks for your reply. I reckon the best way to explain my position is to say that enduring in any manner has nothing to do with our salvation other in the reward available to us. You mentioned that which the Smyrna church suffers in Rev 2:10 and they to me represent the full overcomers of the elect of the church which are told to have a crown that die before our Lord’s coming. The other portion of the church said to have a crown of the seven churches mentioned is the Philadelphia assembly that will be alive which will not precede Smyrna.

Thanks Brother Eugene, the Lord is working on me.
Blessings

Interesting about the churches, too.

 

[Jack Spratt]

John S Said:

"In the scenario that I have presented, which is the scenario that those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture preach, there won't be any deception. NO ONE will be fooled."

If what I believe is correct, and again, in the grand scheme of things this doesn't affect salvation, the deception is for those "left behind".

Think of this. You are being witnessed to by a co-worker for years. They are continually telling you to get right with God. Telling you about Hell and eternal death and the gospel. Yet, it's just not for you.

Then millions of people disappear just like your buddy said. All the things they were preaching.... there happening. So, you drop to your knees and repent...

THIS is not an option. Just as when you die and find out Christ really is Lord..your decision was made on earth before death by FAITH.
Salvation after death... well it's based on facts, knowledge of the actual truth by seeing it and therefore impossible. Once you die your fate is set.
Same with post rapture salvation. It will only be for those who haven't had the choice before the facts came true. The deception will fall on all the people who heard and did not accept the gospel or weren't actually saved even though they thought they were. The great deception will be their undoing.

Many now believe that the scientific community will excuse the rapture is actually a mass abduction by aliens who need to remove this religious sect, which is not conforming to the truth, in order to educate them and then return them so that all of the human race can move to the next level according to the aliens grand plan for our planet. They will explain that we were seeded here by aliens and have progressed this far and nos need everyone on board to take it to the next level.

 

[John S]

John S, you seem to have taken and presented a humorous parody of the “Left behind series”, and I have to wonder at your thoughts of any of the elect ever being caught up to God, and what that scene might present to the world. Has God got the power to do such a thing regardless of man’s inconvenience? As you put it: “How one day they would be whisked away to Heaven.” Oh my! Next thing I know there’ll be some elect taken through the grave, and their spirits becoming absent from the body and present with the Lord. Thanks.

ists

John S, you seem to have taken and presented a humorous parody of the “Left behind series”, and I have to wonder at your thoughts of any of the elect ever being caught up to God, and what that scene might present to the world. Has God got the power to do such a thing regardless of man’s inconvenience? As you put it: “How one day they would be whisked away to Heaven.” Oh my! Next thing I know there’ll be some elect taken through the grave, and their spirits becoming absent from the body and present with the Lord. Thanks.

The Elect will consist of 144,000 members. The Elect does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who claims to believe in Jesus Christ. Whether those 12,000 Jews from the Tribe of Judah and 132,000 Christians from the other Tribes are whisked away or not, remains to be seen.

 

[John S]

John S Said:

"In the scenario that I have presented, which is the scenario that those people who believe in a Pre-Trib Rapture preach, there won't be any deception. NO ONE will be fooled."

If what I believe is correct, and again, in the grand scheme of things this doesn't affect salvation, the deception is for those "left behind".

Think of this. You are being witnessed to by a co-worker for years. They are continually telling you to get right with God. Telling you about Hell and eternal death and the gospel. Yet, it's just not for you.

Then millions of people disappear just like your buddy said. All the things they were preaching.... there happening. So, you drop to your knees and repent...

THIS is not an option. Just as when you die and find out Christ really is Lord..your decision was made on earth before death by FAITH.
Salvation after death... well it's based on facts, knowledge of the actual truth by seeing it and therefore impossible. Once you die your fate is set.
Same with post rapture salvation. It will only be for those who haven't had the choice before the facts came true. The deception will fall on all the people who heard and did not accept the gospel or weren't actually saved even though they thought they were. The great deception will be their undoing.

Many now believe that the scientific community will excuse the rapture is actually a mass abduction by aliens who need to remove this religious sect, which is not conforming to the truth, in order to educate them and then return them so that all of the human race can move to the next level according to the aliens grand plan for our planet. They will explain that we were seeded here by aliens and have progressed this far and nos need everyone on board to take it to the next level.

"So and so is not the antichrist because I am still here".
"So and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived".
"Therefore, so and so is not the antichrist".

THAT is the deception that Satan is counting on so that people will not recognize the antichrist when he arrives.

 

[Eugene]

ists The Elect will consist of 144,000 members. The Elect does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who claims to believe in Jesus Christ. Whether those 12,000 Jews from the Tribe of Judah and 132,000 Christians from the other Tribes are whisked away or not, remains to be seen.

Have you considered that when the 144,000 stand before the throne in the heavenly Jerusalem (Rev 14:1), they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders (Rev 14:3) which were already there before them?

 

[Jack Spratt]

"So and so is not the antichrist because I am still here".
"So and so is not the antichrist because God PROMISED us that we would be gone when he arrived".
"Therefore, so and so is not the antichrist".

THAT is the deception that Satan is counting on so that people will not recognize the antichrist when he arrives.

The antichrist is alive today. We don't know who he is but he will be announced to his position of power after the rapture.

This is true just as we know the next president of the USA is alive but we don't know who he or she is.

There is no deception there.

 

[Jack Spratt]

ists

The Elect will consist of 144,000 members. The Elect does NOT consist of every Tom, Dick, and Harry who claims to believe in Jesus Christ. Whether those 12,000 Jews from the Tribe of Judah and 132,000 Christians from the other Tribes are whisked away or not, remains to be seen.

I believe it is the body of Christ or the "church" that is raptured before the tribulation. All the dead in Christ will rise first, immediately followed by the living believers. The comforter will be removed from the earth before the tribulation too. Jesus states that He will never leave us. How can the Holy Spirit be removed from the earth yet the body of Christ (all the saved) remain if Christ said that He would never leave or forsake us... Also. the only way that the antichrist can and will prevail is if there is no church or Holy Spirit here to oppose him.

We are also the ones who return with Him and the army of angels at Armageddon. How is this possible. We would have to be raptured and immediately do a U turn and come back to fight the final battle.

 

[John S]

The antichrist is alive today. We don't know who he is but he will be announced to his position of power after the rapture.

This is true just as we know the next president of the USA is alive but we don't know who he or she is.

There is no deception there.

What are you talking about? The deception is the false belief that there is going to be a Pre-Trib Rapture.

 

[Blain]

What are you talking about? The deception is the false belief that there is going to be a Pre-Trib Rapture.

Would you mind proving this by showing the scripture that says this?