A WRATHFUL GOD & THE ATONEMENT

[Elteqay]

Sigh!! I know His name in Korean. No Greek influence.

No NT written in Hebrew and he spoke Aramaic. It’s not in dispute.

I see you have made up your mind.

Did he leave a tape? The jews stopped speaking that word in the 6th century BC….hundreds of years before Jesus. Your information is faulty.

We’re done. Yah, I’m moving on..

Oh goody ! 6th century B.C. NOT Hardly ! My mind has been made up long before joining this forum and a long before engaging you.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Only about what God thinks of your presentation. Only Him. Otherwise other people control you.

No Dorothy Mae. 1Pet.2:12 says what "gentiles" think about our testimony..... so that "they" might glorify God in the day of visitation.

That’s good works, not what you say,...

Do you understand what our Lord meant when he said,

for they say, and do not. Mt.23:3

No, he hung for some hours. The nails never killed the victim.

Then Jesus had a heart attack or suffocated or died from blood loss for no reason. Please, just stop.

Well, Jesus didn’t refer to his disciples as his “children” which was your point.

No. My point is Jesus never told many people, "I'm your God." That doesn't mean he wasn't, isn't, or ever will be.

Where’s “as your children” in there?

Right here,

My dear children Gal.4:19
she is our mother. Gal.4:26
My dear children 1Jn.2:1
because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband, Isa54:1

And most importantl,

even so is the man also by the woman 1Cor.11:12

He's saying even Christ took the position of subserviance, as a member of the church, but you and I don't worship each other now, or will we ever.

Why should we care?

Because God doesn't punish himself in place of any sinner.

If he’s the Master, we are obeying him. If we don’t, He isn’t.

That's what wotld leaders in the Bible thought. It's also what atheists think.
But if after having 10 plagues dumped on your head, or being turned into an animal for 7 years doesn't make someone realize Who owns the hairs on his rear end, oh well!

I don’t recall a single verse saying the prophets were hated because they were imperfect.

That's a goof clue to why our Savior was really hated.

Now you thought Jesus’ main suffering was being mocked etc. by other people.

I didn't say main reason, but I'm certain being mocked by people you created would hurt. Creation mirrors the spirit world. If being mocked by your own children wouldn't bother you in the least that's fine. I have "natural affection" for my children. And by natural affection, I mean a love for children that God has given human perents. Let us move on.

That is definitely lumping him with us. That comes straight from thinking what would hurt us the most.

If you mean the pain of people being lost supercedeing physical pain, lump me with him.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No Dorothy Mae. 1Pet.2:12 says what "gentiles" think about our testimony..... so that "they" might glorify God in the day of visitation.

No Journeyman, it says your GOOD works. Doesn’t refer to how you present YOURSELF.

Do you understand what our Lord meant when he said,

for they say, and do not. Mt.23:3

Yes, quite well, thank you.

Then Jesus had a heart attack or suffocated or died from blood loss for no reason. Please, just stop.

I cannot stop correcting falsehood. Jesus didn’t die from the nails. He died from being crucified.

No. My point is Jesus never told many people, "I'm your God." That doesn't mean he wasn't, isn't, or ever will be.

Do you know why He didn’t?

Right here,

My dear children Gal.4:19

Paul called them his children, not Jesus.

she is our mother. Gal.4:26

“She” doesn’t refer to Jesus.

My dear children 1Jn.2:1

John called them his children.

because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband, Isa54:1

That’s still not Jesus.

And most importantl,

even so is the man also by the woman 1Cor.11:12

He's saying even Christ took the position of subserviance, as a member of the church, but you and I don't worship each other now, or will we ever.

Huh? When was that inthe discussion?

Because God doesn't punish himself in place of any sinner.

That's what wotld leaders in the Bible thought. It's also what atheists think.
But if after having 10 plagues dumped on your head, or being turned into an animal for 7 years doesn't make someone realize Who owns the hairs on his rear end, oh well!

That's a goof clue to why our Savior was really hated.

None of that had to do with Jesus. That isn’t why Jesus was hated.

I didn't say main reason, but I'm certain being mocked by people you created would hurt. Creation mirrors the spirit world. If being mocked by your own children wouldn't bother you in the least that's fine. I have "natural affection" for my children. And by natural affection, I mean a love for children that God has given human perents. Let us move on.

You are taking your feelings and values and superimposing them onto God. It was not of value to Him. When he asked Peter who he thought he was, he wasn’t trying to bolster a sagging ego.

If you mean the pain of people being lost supercedeing physical pain, lump me with him.

No, that’s not it. That’s not it at all. He’d wept for lost Jerusalem days before.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

No Journeyman, it says your GOOD works. Doesn’t refer to how you present YOURSELF.

Certainly it does. So does this,

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentleunto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2Tim.2:24-25

I cannot stop correcting falsehood. Jesus didn’t die from the nails. He died from being crucified.

Take away the nails and there is no crucifixion.

Do you know why He didn’t?

Yes. If our Savior told everyone they were standing before God, it would have been judgement day also.

Paul called them his children, not Jesus.

Well, follow the lineage to find out who Paul was a child of. His "children" will follow.

“She” doesn’t refer to Jesus.
That’s still not Jesus.

Yes it does. Here's another where Christ is speaking as a member of his own church,

Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. Isa.8:18,
Heb.2:13

Huh? When was that inthe discussion?

Pauls' teaching isn't about women being inferior to men. It's about all
believers in subserviance and our Lord did not exempt himself from that.

None of that had to do with Jesus. That isn’t why Jesus was hated.

Jesus was hated for serving his Father. Believers are hated for the same reason,

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. Jn.15:18

You are taking your feelings and values and superimposing them onto God. It was not of value to him.

It's the other way around,

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Eze.11:19

When he asked Peter who he thought he was, he wasn’t trying to bolster a sagging ego.

What does Peter acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God have to do with how Jesus feels about being rejected by his creation?

No, that’s not it. That’s not it at all. He’d wept for lost Jerusalem days before.

And did his Spirit in you stop doing that for the lost?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Certainly it does. So does this,

And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentleunto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 2Tim.2:24-25

But this is how we are to BE not how we are to PRESENT OURSELVES. When a man goes to a job interview, he PRESENTS himself. When a woman gives a speech, she PRESENTS HERSELF. The above is certainly true and I am glad you point out these aspects, but they are how we are to be, not how we present ourselves.

Take away the nails and there is no crucifixion.

Might as well say he died from proximity to wood because no proximity to wood and no crucifixion. Isn't it just easier to say, "well, yes, he did not die from the nails but you know what I meant?"

Yes. If our Savior told everyone they were standing before God, it would have been judgement day also.

Well, Isaiah stood before God and it was not Judgement Day.

Well, follow the lineage to find out who Paul was a child of. His "children" will follow.

But that is not how the Bible sees it. "My children" is a term of affection, not a term of lineage. Isn't it easier to just admit that was not the best choice of words to call people Jesus' children?

Yes it does. Here's another where Christ is speaking as a member of his own church,

Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion. Isa.8:18,
Heb.2:13

But that is Paul talking not Jesus. Isaiah is also not Jesus talking. I mean, which church refers to themselves as children of Jesus?

Pauls' teaching isn't about women being inferior to men. It's about all
believers in subserviance and our Lord did not exempt himself from that.

Jesus was hated for serving his Father. Believers are hated for the same reason,

If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. Jn.15:18

That is not the reason the world hated Jesus and not the reason it hates believers. The world hated Jesus and hates (some) believers because the goodness or light in us shows up their darkness. That hate the light.

It's the other way around,

And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: Eze.11:19

It should be as you describe but when you speculate that Jesus was hurt because men mocked him, as you would be hurt if your children did so, you are assuming how YOU feel is how Jesus feels. that is not God giving us a new spirit but you deciding God has your spirit.

What does Peter acknowledging Jesus as the Son of God have to do with how Jesus feels about being rejected by his creation?

A person who suffers because others reject them finds it important what others think of him, very important. If Jesus felt that being accept was important to him personally, he would have been asking Peter what he (Peter) thought of him (Jesus) for his ego's sake. That was not the reason. Jesus did not care what men thought of him as that is the fear of man. He cared what God the Father thought of him and that is reflected in what God said of him.

And did his Spirit in you stop doing that for the lost?

Why do you turn the discussion onto me? What do my feelings have to do with anything we are discussing? There is a time to mourn and a time to rejoice. Jesus showed us that. Mourning for the lost did not consume his every thought although they were always there. Rejoicing over the goodness of God did not consume his every thought although always there. We are given a range of emotions and each is correct at times and places. But mourning will not negate all joy and joy will not negate realizing the sufferings of others.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

But this is how we are to BE not how we are to PRESENT OURSELVES. When a man goes to a job interview, he PRESENTS himself. When a woman gives a speech, she PRESENTS HERSELF. The above is certainly true and I am glad you point out these aspects, but they are how we are to be, not how we present ourselves.

People should see Christ in us by how we are.

Might as well say he died from proximity to wood because no proximity to wood and no crucifixion. Isn't it just easier to say, "well, yes, he did not die from the nails but you know what I meant?"

Because you already know what I meant, but seem to like arguing about it.

Well, Isaiah stood before God and it was not Judgement Day.

John said Isaiah saw the suffering of Christ.

But that is not how the Bible sees it. "My children" is a term of affection, not a term of lineage. Isn't it easier to just admit that was not the best choice of words to call people Jesus' children?

But that is Paul talking not Jesus. Isaiah is also not Jesus talking. I mean, which church refers to themselves as children of Jesus?

None that I ever heard, but all heresy comes from separating the Son from our Father.

That is not the reason the world hated Jesus and not the reason it hates believers. The world hated Jesus and hates (some) believers because the goodness or light in us shows up their darkness. That hate the light.

John defined the Light as our Savior.

It should be as you describe but when you speculate that Jesus was hurt because men mocked him, as you would be hurt if your children did so, you are assuming how YOU feel is how Jesus feels. that is not God giving us a new spirit but you deciding God has your spirit.

A person who suffers because others reject them finds it important what others think of him, very important. If Jesus felt that being accept was important to him personally, he would have been asking Peter what he (Peter) thought of him (Jesus) for his ego's sake. That was not the reason. Jesus did not care what men thought of him as that is the fear of man. He cared what God the Father thought of him and that is reflected in what God said of him.

Why do you turn the discussion onto me? What do my feelings have to do with anything we are discussing? There is a time to mourn and a time to rejoice. Jesus showed us that. Mourning for the lost did not consume his every thought although they were always there. Rejoicing over the goodness of God did not consume his every thought although always there. We are given a range of emotions and each is correct at times and places. But mourning will not negate all joy and joy will not negate realizing the sufferings of others.

I don't know why you're talking about ego or other desires of the flesh. Our Lord came so our Father would be honored but that doesn't mean Jesus wasn't God on earth.
in the prodigal son parable, the father in the story is God.

Why do you turn the discussion onto me? What do my feelings have to do with anything we are discussing?

Because as Christians grow in the knowledge of God it affects how they feel about others.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

People should see Christ in us by how we are.

Agreed.

Because you already know what I meant, but seem to like arguing about it.

Still you need to say that’s what you meant and not defend the silly idea that the nails killed.

John said Isaiah saw the suffering of Christ.

Isaiah 53

None that I ever heard, but all heresy comes from separating the Son from our Father.

No, I cannot recall a single heresy based on that. All heresy comes from changing the truth to suit one’s more appealing position.

John defined the Light as our Savior.

Pretty sure that’s a metaphor. Jesus isn’t light same as light isn’t Jesus. We are also the light but not energy in that form.

I don't know why you're talking about ego or other desires of the flesh. Our Lord came so our Father would be honored but that doesn't mean Jesus wasn't God on earth.
in the prodigal son parable, the father in the story is God.

Ok.

Because as Christians grow in the knowledge of God it affects how they feel about others.

Well that’s true but growing in the knowledge of God is quite rare. We just need to ask people why God does what He does and see if the answer matches scripture and makes sense.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Isaiah 53

Yes. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Jn.12:41

No, I cannot recall a single heresy based on that.

You recall the belief that Jesus was forsaken by his Father. That's not possible.

All heresy comes from changing the truth to suit one’s more appealing position.

It appeals to the flesh. Our Lord didn't put the desires of the flesh to death in place of any sinner.

Pretty sure that’s a metaphor. Jesus isn’t light same as light isn’t Jesus. We are also the light but not energy in that form.

The light John referred to is the Messiah.

Well that’s true but growing in the knowledge of God is quite rare. We just need to ask people why God does what He does and see if the answer matches scripture and makes sense.

Jesus did what he did so people would see how God is.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes. These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him. Jn.12:41

You recall the belief that Jesus was forsaken by his Father. That's not possible.

You said all heresy comes from thinking this. That momentary state is hardly a "heresy."

It appeals to the flesh. Our Lord didn't put the desires of the flesh to death in place of any sinner.

That has nothing to do with heresy coming from a desire for a more appealing theology than the truth.

The light John referred to is the Messiah.

And the Messiah referred to us being the light.

Jesus did what he did so people would see how God is.

True but still few even pursue any knowledge of God today. They just want to be "saved."

 

[gordon777]

True but still few even pursue any knowledge of God today. They just want to be "saved."

Knowledge puffs up, charity edifies.



1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

 

[gordon777]

Being without charity is told what it means, vaunting yourself, behaving unseemly, self seeking, able to be provoked easily, thinking evil, rejoicing in iniquity, not bearing all things, not believing all things, not enduring all things.


1 Corinthians 13:5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.



We were told to not boast against the branches that were cut off, who were broken off because of not believing, how we stand by faith, not by being highminded, to take heed or we will be cut off.

But that message alone is ignored, as the times have come when men are heady, highminded.




Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;




Next is being unseemly. Again it is testimony for this end time now, how men do not like to retain God in their knowledge ( through charity that edifies, and not men's knowledge that puffs up without it.)



Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


Seeking our own wealth, is what debate is, it is very wrong and done now as it is the ending time.


1 Corinthians 10:24 Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth.

Philippians 2:21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.





To not be easily provoked, is letting all bitterness wrath and anger and evil speaking to be put away, which means no thinking o evil is done then.




Ephesians 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

Colossians 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.



Rejoicing in the truth and not in iniquity, is having no pleasure in unrighteousness, the debates are contentions are not delight to God, but to the ones who never stop all these years, daily engaging in them.


2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

James 3:14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.
15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish.
16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.




Believing all things is how we bear and endure all things, not entangling ourselves with the affairs of this life, ( wrath, strife, debate, contentions, disputes.) to pleas God who has chosen us to be a soldier, not to do anything without charity.


2 Timothy 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

1 Corinthians 16:14 Let all your things be done with charity.

Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.
10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,

 

[gordon777]

Why cant the people who assume they have so much knowledge they run these forums for years non stop daily in such strong opinions, which cannot be corrected, to teach good things such as what true knowledge is, or that truth has to be seen to neither be taught, nor acknowledged. ( and then ignored/denied.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Knowledge puffs up, charity edifies.

Jesus seems to think that eternal life is knowing Him, the One True. God. He was not worried that knowing God puffs up. He (and no one else) ever warned anyone that knowing God puffs up. From personal experience, the reason is quite clear. John 17:3

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

Notice this is knowledge of idols. One can see why this puffs up.

1 Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

Notice love is the answer, not a lack of knowledge. Ignorance is not the road to humility.

1 Corinthians 13:4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

Love, not ignorance (lack of knowledvge.)

 

[gordon777]

Love, is not being quick to speak, it is being quick to do. ( the wrath of God comes on man for mans wrath/quick to speak, slow to hear. The thread is a wrathful God)


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

James 1:19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God.

 

[gordon777]

People only engage in debate and are implacable. ( strong opinionated and cannot be corrected.)



Romans 1:29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

 

[gordon777]

Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. ( of love, to do, not to love in word or tongue, as charity edifies, knowledge puffs up)

Their folly is manifest to all men, they proceed no further, resisting the truth. ( the truth is not loving in word and tongue, being quick to speak and slow to hear, as charity edifies, their knowledge [puffs up.)




2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Ever learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. ( of love, to do, not to love in word or tongue, as charity edifies, knowledge puffs up)

A good evidence of this is those posts that contain tons of scriptures with nothing else said. No knowledge demonstrated. Knowledge of the truth is obviously not a part of the value system.....just quoting scripture.

Their folly is manifest to all men, they proceed no further, resisting the truth. ( the truth is not loving in word and tongue, being quick to speak and slow to hear, as charity edifies, their knowledge [puffs up.)

Ah yes, quoting scripture with no knowledge, resisting all attempts to discuss the meaning. Ever quoting and never coming to an understanding.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was.

Have not heard any outcome like Jannes and Jambres...

 

[Dorothy Mae]

People only engage in debate and are implacable. ( strong opinionated and cannot be corrected.)

The ones who just post and post and post and do not answer.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

You said all heresy comes from thinking this. That momentary state is hardly a "heresy."

I believe when all scripture is examined, teaching that our Father forsook his Son "momentarily" is heresy, because what that means is that God forsook his own Word.

That has nothing to do with heresy coming from a desire for a more appealing theology than the truth.

Satan tempted Eve with a more appealing theology than the truth. Saying God forsakes his word is nothing more than calling our Father a liar.

And the Messiah referred to us being the light.

As long as we agree he has always been the Light.

True but still few even pursue any knowledge of God today. They just want to be "saved."

I think gentile bible teachers took Paul the Jews' writings and twisted them into a Jesus that Jesus wouldn't recognize.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I believe when all scripture is examined, teaching that our Father forsook his Son "momentarily" is heresy, because what that means is that God forsook his own Word.

I don’t hold a position on that matter but what does “God forsook his own Word” mean? If you or I “forsake” his word, it clearly means we stop doing it, not that somewhere we purposely left our Bible behind.

Satan tempted Eve with a more appealing theology than the truth.

Well, it’s a stretch to call that temptation “a theology.” It was an appeal to pride.

Saying God forsakes his word is nothing more than calling our Father a liar.

I have no idea what that looks like, this idea of God forsaking his Word.

As long as we agree he has always been the Light.

We do agree!!!

I think gentile bible teachers took Paul the Jews' writings and twisted them into a Jesus that Jesus wouldn't recognize.

Since Jews don’t teach Paul’s writings at all, that’s a pretty safe argument.