According to Jesus...

[Danus]

? You do not over come sin by your efforts.

I have said over and over that we can do it with God's help and that's what Jesus says.

Now you are referencing John 14:15. That is another scripture we can start on next if you'd like, but let's finish Rev 3 first if that's OK.

I am sorry Danus, but you are the one who is mixing up to justify your reasoning. That's why it is called out of context because it does not harmonize with other verses.

Ok, you can, but God is the one who leads you to cover come. God/Christ is in control of that not you. I place God before myself. Maybe that's the difference.

What I'm I mixing up? You have had ample time to reinterpret what I wrote. You are the one making references to what Jesus says without any verses or quotes as we discuss Rev 3. Let's talk about Rev 3. I thought that's what you wanted to do and I gave you my interpretation. So where are we? Got another verse you would rather move to?

I'm only asking we stay on topic. Can you develop questions about Rev 3:5? maybe we could work with it that way? You said it proves we can loose salvation and I said it does not. Again you are taking the position that once we are saved we can loose or turn from that salvation. You further indelicate that we are responsible for keeping the salvation. Earlier you mentioned that accepting Christ was not enough.

I say we are saved the moment we accept Christ in faith and that God does not allow us to stray or loose that salvation. We may screw-up (If you will) We may damage our relationship with Christ, but we are still saved. God does not let his sheep stray.

At this point you are trying to feed me scripture that says we can loose our salvation and you gave Rev 3:5.

Revelation 3:5 (New International Version)

5He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.

You said Jesus says he will blot your name from he book of life if you stray and I said it does not say that. It says he will NEVER do that for those that over come and that overcoming means accepting Christ in faith ...IE being saved. So does that verse say you can loose your salvation? NO it does not. Either talk about it more or let's move to your next verse.

 

[Danus]

Take Danus for instance. He/she has been given multiple scripture that can be interpreted in no other way that to show one can fall away, and must endure until the end. Yet they simply refuse the clear meaning of scripture and force their opinion into it. this person is not truly seeking the truth. I dont care what they say

NO sir. Do not claim to know me for the sake of francisdesales. I have given far more detail on the scriptures given me than anyone here has thus far. All you have given are tid-bits where as I have expanded those scriptures and written my detailed concordance of them at which point you have not challenged me one bit.

You just don't like the way your argument is going so you jump around the ring. I've been here DAILY. You may refer to me as Sir, or he/him.

 

[jasoncran]

so that verse, (hebrews 6)watchman, only applies when we die. odd it doenst come across that way.

danus, i have willifully knowingly sinned like he claims. for you see i knew bisexuality was a sin and still lusted after a man. was i saved truly before,that, i doubt it.

but i do that when i went to church i would hear God telling me to repent! no man knew that i was that way, save the men that i was in love with and friends outside the church i attended.

 

[shad]

As to the "right Christian organization", this is beyond our topic. I am merely addressing your comments on "being taught by Jesus", based on the text from Mt 23 out of context and ignoring other Scriptures.

I dont ignore anything. I know that no one knows the exact meaning of whole Bible, that's why it is important to discern the whole Bible context. You have the right to dismiss me as wrong.

Then I pray that you see my explanation is more in line with the context of the entire Bible, since Paul calls himself the spiritual father of the Corinthians, while Peter, Paul, and John refer to those of their congregation as children or sons - making them, by default, spiritual fathers.

Not everyone who says they are following apostles are doing so.

Keep in mind the relationship between the Rabbi and the disciple in Jewish thought. It was HIGHLY regarded, and after all of this data and some thought, I hope you see that your initial concern on this passage does not say what you thought it did and will agree that you are misinterpreting it and applying 21st century concepts to a 1st century set of writings that simply did not consider "call no one teacher" literally...

I am following my convictions and we will see who is right very soon. I just dont trust any organization anymore. Jesus says we know them by their fruit. I don't see much godly fruit from any organization I know.

 

[jasoncran]

you are human thus prone to those same failings, thus the need to have a good mentor. a godly man.

 

[shad]

The bible was not written in secrete code.

Who says it is? Not me.

In this case you referenced Revelation 3, and Revelations 3 is clearly addressed to the church of Sardis. In fact it starts off.....1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: That is pretty clear. That is one of the 7 churches that revelations addresses. That is a body of Christ.

All Jesus' followers are part of the body of Christ, you dont have to belong to an organization to be one.

 

[jasoncran]

shad, he means that only that body that attends there in sardis.

like this a plattoon of army soldiers that is being addressed to.

if we take it your way then we shouldnt have names of the churches in each city in the bible.

a group of believers that met in the city of sardis was being adressed directly and them alone.

 

[shad]

Ok, you can, but God is the one who leads you to cover come.

Again, if we are willing.

God/Christ is in control of that not you. I place God before myself. Maybe that's the difference.

You keep putting your words in my mouth. Stop it. I never once said I put myself before God. This is insulting.

]What I'm I mixing up? You have had ample time to reinterpret what I wrote. You are the one making references to what Jesus says without any verses or quotes as we discuss Rev 3. Let's talk about Rev 3. I thought that's what you wanted to do and I gave you my interpretation. So where are we? Got another verse you would rather move to?

You wanted to talk about the verses I quote.

I'm only asking we stay on topic. Can you develop questions about Rev 3:5? maybe we could work with it that way? You said it proves we can loose salvation and I said it does not. Again you are taking the position that once we are saved we can loose or turn from that salvation. You further indelicate that we are responsible for keeping the salvation. Earlier you mentioned that accepting Christ was not enough.

Now, are you going back to your references?

You said Jesus says he will blot your name from he book of life if you stray and I said it does not say that. It says he will NEVER do that for those that over come and that overcoming means accepting Christ in faith ...IE being saved. So does that verse say you can loose your salvation? NO it does not. Either talk about it more or let's move to your next verse.

I think we are done discussing it. You asked me to go into detail and I did. We should agree to disagree. Do you want to go onto the next verse of mine or what?

 

[shad]

shad, he means that only that body that attends there in sardis.

like this a plattoon of army soldiers that is being addressed to.

if we take it your way then we shouldnt have names of the churches in each city in the bible.

a group of believers that met in the city of sardis was being adressed directly and them alone.

Ok, I understand that, but it is time to apply Jesus' warning of "come out of Babylon". The way I see it, corrupt organizations are Babylon.

 

[Danus]

The bible was not written in secrete code.

Who says it is? Not me.

In this case you referenced Revelation 3, and Revelations 3 is clearly addressed to the church of Sardis. In fact it starts off.....1"To the angel of the church in Sardis write: That is pretty clear. That is one of the 7 churches that revelations addresses. That is a body of Christ.

All Jesus' followers are part of the body of Christ, you dont have to belong to an organization to be one.

Yes that's true, but we are talking about Rev 3:5 and how it's addressed to the Church or Sardis. on That note you said that was my interpretation. Either you are not detailed enough or you think I just think that and that's not true to the verse. I'm saying that verse 5 you mentioned has a specific context and belongs inside that context. It's Jesus speaking to the Church of Sardis about a specific issue. A failing of that church body. Not of people who where once saved and now not.

I'm saying that it's about some who where saved and some who are not, and how that those who are not can be, by accepting Christ...not by overcoming in the way I think you think overcoming means.

 

[jasoncran]

shad, he means that only that body that attends there in sardis.

like this a plattoon of army soldiers that is being addressed to.

if we take it your way then we shouldnt have names of the churches in each city in the bible.

a group of believers that met in the city of sardis was being adressed directly and them alone.

Ok, I understand that, but it is time to apply Jesus' warning of "come out of Babylon". The way I see it, corrupt organizations are Babylon.

not all churches are babylon, you have an orginization, in your disgust of the eclessia. you forget that you have an orginazaition as well, unless you do church by shad and only shad.
orginazations need not to be huge to be corrupt. there are small and large ones that are corrupt.

 

[watchman F]

Take Danus for instance. He/she has been given multiple scripture that can be interpreted in no other way that to show one can fall away, and must endure until the end. Yet they simply refuse the clear meaning of scripture and force their opinion into it. this person is not truly seeking the truth. I dont care what they say

NO sir. Do not claim to know me for the sake of francisdesales. I have given far more detail on the scriptures given me than anyone here has thus far. All you have given are tid-bits where as I have expanded those scriptures and written my detailed concordance of them at which point you have not challenged me one bit.

You just don't like the way your argument is going so you jump around the ring. I've been here DAILY. You may refer to me as Sir, or he/him.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

Explain this verse away Danus.

 

[francisdesales]

As to the "right Christian organization", this is beyond our topic. I am merely addressing your comments on "being taught by Jesus", based on the text from Mt 23 out of context and ignoring other Scriptures.

I dont ignore anything. I know that no one knows the exact meaning of whole Bible, that's why it is important to discern the whole Bible context. You have the right to dismiss me as wrong.

You do if you think that "call no man 'teacher'" is meant by Christ in the literal sense, applied literally to all Christians. I have already stated where this falls short and have given an alternative interpretation that is more in keeping with what Jesus states, knowledge of Jewish view towards Rabbi/disciple relationship, and the rest of the NT corpus. If you continue to deny this, then you are ignoring it and denying you are ignoring it... Merely denying something is not exactly a "defense" of one's point of view, it is a sad reminder that one has no logical backing for their point of view.

Not everyone who says they are following apostles are doing so.

Sadly, Shad, that is true, but has little to do with what I posted..

I refered to the Apostles as evidence that Jesus did NOT mean "call no man as teacher/father" literally, since THEY refered to THEMSELVES as "father" or as a "teacher" to the nascent community.

I am following my convictions and we will see who is right very soon. I just dont trust any organization anymore. Jesus says we know them by their fruit. I don't see much godly fruit from any organization I know.

You don't get out much, then, nor are you familiar with who brought into existence things that Western culture takes for granted, such as hospitals and universities...

 

[Danus]

Ok, you can, but God is the one who leads you to cover come.

Again, if we are willing.

What do you mean "if we are willing"? Of cores! You think I think an atheist, or someone who does not have faith can be saved?

Being saved means accepting Christ in faith. Knowing you are a sinner by nature, repenting and accepting Christ. That's being willing. You still have to work on your faith. You still have to be built up. You don't do that by yourself. God leads that process through a relationship you develop with God, with Christ leading the way.

I found God 22 years ago. I know God better today then I did then, but I know him better through our relationship. I was a poor excuse for a Christian then compared to now. I did not do anything special...I was lead and edified over time. Still happening. I'm not perfect yet God has not left me. yet I still struggle with sin in my life. I still deal with Pride, lust, wrath.....all the rest, but Christ does not leave me. He does not say "Danus, if you don't straighten up I'm going to blot your name out of the book of life.....That's all I'm saying.

I am saved. I know I'm saved and God does not let me stray. You started this OP saying that's not true and that I am under false teachings. really?

 

[francisdesales]

Ok, I understand that, but it is time to apply Jesus' warning of "come out of Babylon". The way I see it, corrupt organizations are Babylon.

You see it wrong. Babylon does not refer to an "organization" in Scriptures. It's a way of life that is worldly, as in Psalms 1. This is another attempt to mold the Scriptures and the Christian message into one's own image and likeness, which stems from private interpretation. It is inevitable that such will happen.

 

[watchman F]

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

Explain this verse away Danus.

Your not stumped are you Danus????

 

[shad]

not all churches are babylon, you have an orginization, in your disgust of the eclessia. you forget that you have an orginazaition as well, unless you do church by shad and only shad.
orginazations need not to be huge to be corrupt. there are small and large ones that are corrupt.

I have my family which is serving Jesus with me. I know them very well and we dont try to accommodate each other, we read the Bible and serve without any compromise. We dont have to pay anyone or support anyone so we dont have to compromise. So we can concentrate on serving Jesus. When you have a paid pastor, he has to compromise to keep his job.

 

[shad]

You see it wrong. Babylon does not refer to an "organization" in Scriptures. It's a way of life that is worldly, as in Psalms 1. This is another attempt to mold the Scriptures and the Christian message into one's own image and likeness, which stems from private interpretation. It is inevitable that such will happen.

Ok, that is your organization's interpretation, and I disagree with it. Contextual meaning of the Babylon is corrupt churches. If I agree with everything you say, I would be a member of your organization.

 

[Danus]

[quote="watchman F":px0w67g7]Take Danus for instance. He/she has been given multiple scripture that can be interpreted in no other way that to show one can fall away, and must endure until the end. Yet they simply refuse the clear meaning of scripture and force their opinion into it. this person is not truly seeking the truth. I dont care what they say

NO sir. Do not claim to know me for the sake of francisdesales. I have given far more detail on the scriptures given me than anyone here has thus far. All you have given are tid-bits where as I have expanded those scriptures and written my detailed concordance of them at which point you have not challenged me one bit.

You just don't like the way your argument is going so you jump around the ring. I've been here DAILY. You may refer to me as Sir, or he/him.

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

Explain this verse away Danus.[/quote:px0w67g7]

OK, Shad said he's done with me after one verse so I'll turn my attention to it.

Here we are given a clear warning for anyone who might alter the book of prophecy. Could, and I think does, speak for the whole of scripture.

So...Questions: Would a person who has faith in Christ add or take away? Is a person who has faith a person who is saved? What is "His share of the tree of life"?

I think we would agree that this verse speaks his share of salvation when it refers to his share of the tree of life. BUT, and stay with me here, but does that mean his share is taken away after once been given or does that mean his share that we all have uppon accepting it?

In other words, does a man who is not saved today have a share of salvation? If he does not then he has nothing to claim anyway. If he does not he has no reason to ever believe.

I say he does have a share he just needs to accept it. If he does not, in the end it's taken away...his share that he never claimed. He never accepted. he never picked it up, yet it was delivered by Christ ...he just never took hold of it.

Again, I'm saying that those who have claimed their share...can not loose it. Those who have claimed what Christ has set aside......in faith would not take away from the word. So In my interpretation ...deeply so, it is not speaking of those who are saved, but those who are not.

Do get back with me please.

 

[Danus]

[quote="watchman F":gf2qmm4o]Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book

Explain this verse away Danus.

Your not stumped are you Danus????[/quote:gf2qmm4o]

No sir, Good verse by the way. I did respond.