According to Jesus...

[shad]

OK, Shad said he's done with me after one verse so I'll turn my attention to it.

Danus, you have a habit of putting your words into people's mouths. You should stop it, already.

I asked you if you wanted to go to the next verse. I guess you dont want to. Suit yourself.

 

[Danus]

OK, Shad said he's done with me after one verse so I'll turn my attention to it.

Danus, you have a habit of putting your words into people's mouths. You should stop it, already.

I asked you if you wanted to go to the next verse. I guess you dont want to. Suit yourself.

This is your quote.

I think we are done discussing it. You asked me to go into detail and I did. We should agree to disagree. Do you want to go onto the next verse of mine or what?

I do apologize I did not read the last sentence. yes. Let's have you next verse. however, I still did not see where you argued my interpretation of rev 3:5, but that's Ok. We did talk on a few terms.

Your next verse that proves we can loose our salvation. What is it?

 

[jasoncran]

not all churches are babylon, you have an orginization, in your disgust of the eclessia. you forget that you have an orginazaition as well, unless you do church by shad and only shad.
orginazations need not to be huge to be corrupt. there are small and large ones that are corrupt.

I have my family which is serving Jesus with me. I know them very well and we dont try to accommodate each other, we read the Bible and serve without any compromise. We dont have to pay anyone or support anyone so we dont have to compromise. So we can concentrate on serving Jesus. When you have a paid pastor, he has to compromise to keep his job.[/quote
many a pastors that i know arent paid. one works with me. and another runs a church that her husband started and was blessed by the lord to start on 10 acres, and she lives on that property. she gets no income from the church.

logically fallacy, shad , dont assume that all churches pay their pastor.

 

[francisdesales]

You see it wrong. Babylon does not refer to an "organization" in Scriptures. It's a way of life that is worldly, as in Psalms 1. This is another attempt to mold the Scriptures and the Christian message into one's own image and likeness, which stems from private interpretation. It is inevitable that such will happen.

Ok, that is your organization's interpretation, and I disagree with it. Contextual meaning of the Babylon is corrupt churches. If I agree with everything you say, I would be a member of your organization.

My 'organization" does not interpret every verse in the Bible and state categorically "this means 'x'". That is not how Catholicism works, as we realize that verses have different senses of meanings and that God's Word is alive and not bound to one meaning alone.

You say the contextual meaning of Babylon is "corrupt churches", but can you explain that with some Scriptures, please? When Peter says he is in "Babylon", does that mean he is in a "corrupt church"? I'm wondering what would Jesus think about such an idea...

I am not saying you must agree with everything I say, but it appears you purposely disagree (without any supporting argument) so that you willingly remain in the "church" of your image and likeness, rather than submitting yourself to what Christ established. What exactly is your motive - have you considered it?

Regards

 

[shad]

You say the contextual meaning of Babylon is "corrupt churches", but can you explain that with some Scriptures, please? When Peter says he is in "Babylon", does that mean he is in a "corrupt church"? I'm wondering what would Jesus think about such an idea...

Francis, how do you explain anti-Christ? Are you literally interpreting this too?

I am not saying you must agree with everything I say, but it appears you purposely disagree (without any supporting argument) so that you willingly remain in the "church" of your image and likeness, rather than submitting yourself to what Christ established. What exactly is your motive - have you considered it?

The most important thing is that body of Christ not the organization. You are being legalistic about this. I am considering everything what is going on about Christianity. The Christianity is chaotic now. Please consider what Ezekiel says:

Ezekiel 33
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, speak to your countrymen and say to them: 'When I bring the sword against a land, and the people of the land choose one of their men and make him their watchman, 3 and he sees the sword coming against the land and blows the trumpet to warn the people, 4 then if anyone hears the trumpet but does not take warning and the sword comes and takes his life, his blood will be on his own head. 5 Since he heard the sound of the trumpet but did not take warning, his blood will be on his own head. If he had taken warning, he would have saved himself. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet to warn the people and the sword comes and takes the life of one of them, that man will be taken away because of his sin, but I will hold the watchman accountable for his blood.'
7 "Son of man, I have made you a watchman for the house of Israel; so hear the word I speak and give them warning from me. 8 When I say to the wicked, 'O wicked man, you will surely die,' and you do not speak out to dissuade him from his ways, that wicked man will die for [a] his sin, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. 9 But if you do warn the wicked man to turn from his ways and he does not do so, he will die for his sin, but you will have saved yourself.
10 "Son of man, say to the house of Israel, 'This is what you are saying: "Our offenses and sins weigh us down, and we are wasting away because of them. How then can we live?" ' 11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?'
12 "Therefore, son of man, say to your countrymen, 'The righteousness of the righteous man will not save him when he disobeys, and the wickedness of the wicked man will not cause him to fall when he turns from it. The righteous man, if he sins, will not be allowed to live because of his former righteousness.' 13 If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. 14 And if I say to the wicked man, 'You will surely die,' but he then turns away from his sin and does what is just and right- 15 if he gives back what he took in pledge for a loan, returns what he has stolen, follows the decrees that give life, and does no evil, he will surely live; he will not die. 16 None of the sins he has committed will be remembered against him. He has done what is just and right; he will surely live.
17 "Yet your countrymen say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' But it is their way that is not just. 18 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. 19 And if a wicked man turns away from his wickedness and does what is just and right, he will live by doing so. 20 Yet, O house of Israel, you say, 'The way of the Lord is not just.' But I will judge each of you according to his own ways."

 

[shad]

Ezekiel 34
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel; prophesy and say to them: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Woe to the shepherds of Israel who only take care of themselves! Should not shepherds take care of the flock? 3 You eat the curds, clothe yourselves with the wool and slaughter the choice animals, but you do not take care of the flock. 4 You have not strengthened the weak or healed the sick or bound up the injured. You have not brought back the strays or searched for the lost. You have ruled them harshly and brutally. 5 So they were scattered because there was no shepherd, and when they were scattered they became food for all the wild animals. 6 My sheep wandered over all the mountains and on every high hill. They were scattered over the whole earth, and no one searched or looked for them.
7 " 'Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 8 As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, because my flock lacks a shepherd and so has been plundered and has become food for all the wild animals, and because my shepherds did not search for my flock but cared for themselves rather than for my flock, 9 therefore, O shepherds, hear the word of the LORD : 10 This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I am against the shepherds and will hold them accountable for my flock. I will remove them from tending the flock so that the shepherds can no longer feed themselves. I will rescue my flock from their mouths, and it will no longer be food for them.

11 " 'For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.

17 " 'As for you, my flock, this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will judge between one sheep and another, and between rams and goats. 18 Is it not enough for you to feed on the good pasture? Must you also trample the rest of your pasture with your feet? Is it not enough for you to drink clear water? Must you also muddy the rest with your feet? 19 Must my flock feed on what you have trampled and drink what you have muddied with your feet?

20 " 'Therefore this is what the Sovereign LORD says to them: See, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. 21 Because you shove with flank and shoulder, butting all the weak sheep with your horns until you have driven them away, 22 I will save my flock, and they will no longer be plundered. I will judge between one sheep and another. 23 I will place over them one shepherd, my servant David, and he will tend them; he will tend them and be their shepherd. 24 I the LORD will be their God, and my servant David will be prince among them. I the LORD have spoken.

25 " 'I will make a covenant of peace with them and rid the land of wild beasts so that they may live in the desert and sleep in the forests in safety. 26 I will bless them and the places surrounding my hill. [a] I will send down showers in season; there will be showers of blessing. 27 The trees of the field will yield their fruit and the ground will yield its crops; the people will be secure in their land. They will know that I am the LORD, when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslaved them. 28 They will no longer be plundered by the nations, nor will wild animals devour them. They will live in safety, and no one will make them afraid. 29 I will provide for them a land renowned for its crops, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land or bear the scorn of the nations. 30 Then they will know that I, the LORD their God, am with them and that they, the house of Israel, are my people, declares the Sovereign LORD. 31 You my sheep, the sheep of my pasture, are people, and I am your God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "

 

[shad]

many a pastors that i know arent paid. one works with me. and another runs a church that her husband started and was blessed by the lord to start on 10 acres, and she lives on that property. she gets no income from the church.

Are you sure that they are not planning to get paid as soon as they have enough people in their church? That's how paid pastors' church start.

They won't take any offerings and tithes?

 

[shad]

Danus,

Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version)
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:39-41 (New International Version)
39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:50-51 (New International Version)
50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:11-13 (New International Version)
11"Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12"But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
13"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

Matthew 25:28-30 (New International Version)
28" 'Take the talent from him and give it to the one who has the ten talents. 29For everyone who has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 30And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'

Matthew 25:45-46 (New International Version)
45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Revelation 2:7 (New International Version)
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

Revelation 2:11 (New International Version)
11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 2:17 (New International Version)
17He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give him a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to him who receives it.

 

[shad]

Danus,

These verses are all alike, talking about being faithful to the end or else.

 

[francisdesales]

You say the contextual meaning of Babylon is "corrupt churches", but can you explain that with some Scriptures, please? When Peter says he is in "Babylon", does that mean he is in a "corrupt church"? I'm wondering what would Jesus think about such an idea...

Francis, how do you explain anti-Christ? Are you literally interpreting this too?

You are changing the subject.

Your point, please...

The most important thing is that body of Christ not the organization. You are being legalistic about this. I am considering everything what is going on about Christianity. The Christianity is chaotic now.

What does "legalistic" mean? Is it a community with a set of beliefs considered "legalistic"? Then guilty as charged. So were the communities of the bible. Should we be surprised that in the eyes of modern culture, an organization that stands for principles would be a casualty of "legalism" from the liberal left???

It appears you have been taken in by the wave of relativism sweeping the nation, tripping over themselves to accomodate ALL lines of thinking for the sake of "tolerance", the new politically correct term that allows Muslims to erect "churches" freely here while Christians are not allowed to set foot in a church in Saudi Arabia, for example.

Christianity is in chaos now because most Christians cater to the ways of the world and secularism. Private interpretation and individualism is rampant - and unbiblical. People are fooled by the propaganda of the newspapers, who have little clue on reality. Few stand on principles anymore, in the name of "tolerance". This has invaded Christianity, both Protestantism, Catholicism, and all the "church of one" groups.

Now, if you have a point regarding Ezekiel, please make it. I don't see it proving your point regarding Babylon being "corrupt organizations". The issue here is secularism, a problem in our times, and in the times of the writing of Revelation. One must choose the ways of the world or the ways of Christ - and they usually do not intersect. "Babylon" has little to do with "corrupt organizations". It's about a way of thinking and living. Naturally, "Babylon" and Rome were equated with each other because Rome was the center of corrupt living and thinking in the first century. You are aware of the Jewish analogies of the use of that word?

Regards

 

[Danus]

Danus,

These verses are all alike, talking about being faithful to the end or else.

Shad, these verses do have a similar theme, but they speak of the UNSAVED. Not the saved. The saved are the ones who you said can loose their salvation.

The bible speaks to all mankind. The word makes a clear distinction about those who are saved and those who are not. It’s not just a message for those who have accepted Christ in faith, but to all. These verses you listed speak about the unsaved to all mankind, both saved and unsaved.

There are tons of verses that support the fact that Christ does not turn away from the saved; the ones who have accepted and believe. Surely you know them, but I can list them as well if you like. They speak to all mankind, both saved and unsaved, but they speak of the believers, to all mankind, both saved and unsaved.

When someone accepts Christ, a new work starts in him right where he stands. He is not called to be good as much as he is called to have faith in Christ. Christ starts a new work in him and he is built up over time. That does not mean he is sinless!! No one is without sin. We may want to be “Good†and sinless but it does not matter how hard you try you are a sinner, The question is,,,,are you saved or not?

There is no question of the condition of man. Sinner. That’s it. God is wholly, pure, but we are not and being saved does not make us so. Christ makes us so. Does that mean we can sin away? NO, because once we accept Christ in faith we are changed. We are molded to the image of Christ, but not Christ like in our righteousness. (not sinless)

That’s what you are saying is false teaching.

If you can have anything to do with God accepting you for the fact that you are good, then you would have to meet the full requirement, which means you will have to be pure. You are not, I am not, no one is.

When you face Gods judgment it’s Christ and your faith in Christ that will determine your salvation, not what you have done. He’ll either say “I do not know you†or “well done my good and faithful servant.†If he says well done…does he mean good job being good? No your good pales in comparison to God.. your “good†is a joke, so is mine. I don’t care how good you are.. It’s laughable compared to God’s good. It does not even compare. Yet God wants you to be with him. So how does he do it? How does he make a way for you to be justified to be with him….Christ.

Once you are truly saved, once you have accepted Christ fully in faith, you are saved. You know you are saved. A new work begins and you can’t loose it. If you do …you never had it. Who accepts Christ and does not see the difference in their lives? Not those saved brother. Not those saved.

When you started this thread you said people like me are teaching false doctrine and that we are wrong. Hum….. So far I’ve not seen where you are qualified to say such a thing at all. If what you say is true then prove it. I’m saved, I know I’m saved. I don’t question my salvation. I serve God. When I face his judgment, and I will, All I have to offer him is my love and acceptance. It’s that which bares fruit, but not fruit for me or even of me, but ….for him, from him. It’s not about me, but I know I can chasse lions with my faith in him. I know that it does not matter what happens to me in this life, it’s all good. I’m saved and you’ve no authority over God to say otherwise to me or anyone else. Your no better than me and I’m no better than you. If you have accepted Christ in faith then you are saved just like me

 

[seekandlisten]

It appears you have been taken in by the wave of relativism sweeping the nation, tripping over themselves to accomodate ALL lines of thinking for the sake of "tolerance", the new politically correct term that allows Muslims to erect "churches" freely here while Christians are not allowed to set foot in a church in Saudi Arabia, for example.

Hmmmm....interesting? This comment raised some questions when I read it and how many people these days view 'tolerance' and it's application. Let me ask you this, would Jesus have followed suite with what others in the world are doing or would he have said 'come, sit, make yourself at home, you have no reason to fear here'. Is the 'kingdom' spoke of in the Bible not moved forward by love and acceptance?

I live in Canada where we allow Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindu's, etc. to set up their places of worship and freely worship their God and I have no problem with it. Can someone follow a 'God' that teaches love, kindness to towards others, and becoming a better person yet because they don't agree on the 'definition' with someone else be following the wrong 'God'?

This seems to be the case in arguments of 'my God is better then your God'. Almost every religion teaches the same thing until it comes down to the definition of who 'God' is and what we think he wants. We change 'Jesus is the way' into meaning that he really meant Christianity is the way or Islam is the way. Jesus showed the way and it was meant to be lived not believed in. If your 'way' doesn't 'shine' out love and acceptance it is no 'way' at all.

The mythical 'Kingdom of God' is not supernatural or coming, but rather is the only place it could be, within and among us like Jesus said. This 'kingdom' only exists when we can treat all others as equals, as brother and sisters, as children of God.

cheers

 

[francisdesales]

It appears you have been taken in by the wave of relativism sweeping the nation, tripping over themselves to accomodate ALL lines of thinking for the sake of "tolerance", the new politically correct term that allows Muslims to erect "churches" freely here while Christians are not allowed to set foot in a church in Saudi Arabia, for example.

Hmmmm....interesting? This comment raised some questions when I read it and how many people these days view 'tolerance' and it's application. Let me ask you this, would Jesus have followed suite with what others in the world are doing or would he have said 'come, sit, make yourself at home, you have no reason to fear here'. Is the 'kingdom' spoke of in the Bible not moved forward by love and acceptance?

I live in Canada where we allow Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindu's, etc. to set up their places of worship and freely worship their God and I have no problem with it. Can someone follow a 'God' that teaches love, kindness to towards others, and becoming a better person yet because they don't agree on the 'definition' with someone else be following the wrong 'God'?

On the surface, it all sounds great, but the fact is that the REASON behind such "accomodation" has nothing to do with a national "Christian mentality", my friend. The decision to allow such things has little to do with mimicing the Christ. Look at the rest of social policy in Canada...

Regards

 

[shad]

Now, if you have a point regarding Ezekiel, please make it.

Ezekiel is prophesying about how unfaithful shepherds are. Jesus will come and lead His people because there are no reliable shepherds.

 

[shad]

Shad, these verses do have a similar theme, but they speak of the UNSAVED. Not the saved. The saved are the ones who you said can loose their salvation.

I disagree wgholeheartedly; they are all Christians.

The bible speaks to all mankind. The word makes a clear distinction about those who are saved and those who are not. It’s not just a message for those who have accepted Christ in faith, but to all. These verses you listed speak about the unsaved to all mankind, both saved and unsaved.

Most of it speck to God's people and Christians.

There are tons of verses that support the fact that Christ does not turn away from the saved;

It is wishful thinking. We will not inherit kingdom of god if we are not faithful until the end.

When someone accepts Christ, a new work starts in him right where he stands. He is not called to be good as much as he is called to have faith in Christ. Christ starts a new work in him and he is built up over time. That does not mean he is sinless!! No one is without sin. We may want to be “Good†and sinless but it does not matter how hard you try you are a sinner, The question is,,,,are you saved or not?

We can be sinless with God' help if we are willing and faithful.

 

[seekandlisten]

On the surface, it all sounds great, but the fact is that the REASON behind such "accomodation" has nothing to do with a national "Christian mentality", my friend. The decision to allow such things has little to do with mimicing the Christ. Look at the rest of social policy in Canada...

Regards

Well, personally, I hope that we never get to the point of a national 'Christian mentality' but that's just me. As far as pointing out the social policy in Canada I think you missed my point but I'm not going to pursue it as I know where our disagreements will fall.

cheers

 

[Vic C.]

Note, please do not read any negative tone into my post as it is not intended to be that way.

We change 'Jesus is the way' into meaning that he really meant Christianity is the way or Islam is the way.

John 14:6 is as clear as can be. I really don't need to go into New Testament 101, do I?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

That's not clear? Is this?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Does religion hold to these thruth? No, only Christianity holds them at the very core of our beliefs because Jesus said it.

Jesus is beyond any national boundaries.

Can someone follow a 'God' that teaches love, kindness to towards others, and becoming a better person yet because they don't agree on the 'definition' with someone else be following the wrong 'God'?

If Jesus as Lord and Savior isn't in the equation, then this person is pledging their allegiance to the wrong "god". My God came to us in the flesh incarnate and became the one and only mediator between Man and The Father. Yes, He taught love, but He also taught obedience and justice.

 

[shad]

There is no question of the condition of man. Sinner. That’s it. God is wholly, pure, but we are not and being saved does not make us so. Christ makes us so. Does that mean we can sin away? NO, because once we accept Christ in faith we are changed. We are molded to the image of Christ, but not Christ like in our righteousness. (not sinless)

If we are sinners when we die, we will not enter into His kingdom. That's my OP.

That’s what you are saying is false teaching.

OSAS is false doctrine and false assurance.

If you can have anything to do with God accepting you for the fact that you are good, then you would have to meet the full requirement, which means you will have to be pure. You are not, I am not, no one is.

Jesus says nothing is impossible with God' help. You are ignoring Jesus' own words and making up your own salvation.

When you face Gods judgment it’s Christ and your faith in Christ that will determine your salvation, not what you have done.

There is no salvation without obedience to Jesus until the end. These are His own words, not mine.

Once you are truly saved, once you have accepted Christ fully in faith, you are saved.

You are judging, no one can judge who is saved except Jesus. What you are doing is boasting.

When you started this thread you said people like me are teaching false doctrine and that we are wrong.

Yes, that's what this thread is all about.

 

[francisdesales]

Now, if you have a point regarding Ezekiel, please make it.

Ezekiel is prophesying about how unfaithful shepherds are. Jesus will come and lead His people because there are no reliable shepherds.

Ezekiel is prophesying about how unfaithful shepherds CAN BE.

Jesus leads His People through men, as God has done throughout the Scriptures.

If you claim all shepherds are unfaithful, then the Apostles had some serious issues with following Jesus' instructions to them, my friend.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

On the surface, it all sounds great, but the fact is that the REASON behind such "accomodation" has nothing to do with a national "Christian mentality", my friend. The decision to allow such things has little to do with mimicing the Christ. Look at the rest of social policy in Canada...

Regards

Well, personally, I hope that we never get to the point of a national 'Christian mentality' but that's just me. As far as pointing out the social policy in Canada I think you missed my point but I'm not going to pursue it as I know where our disagreements will fall.

cheers

No problem - but beware of Islam, there are some serious issues to consider, and terrorism is only secondary. Our culture of freedom is at serious risk and Western society is basically giving it up. We see this in Europe already.

Take care