According to Jesus...

[RichardBurger]

This thread assumes that what Jesus said to the Jews (who were under the law of Moses), He said to us today who are not under the law of Moses but under grace.

Jesus did not come to the Gentiles. However, God has used His work on the cross to save everyone and anyone that will trust in His work on the cross.

Scripture:

It is clear to me that Jesus Christ did not come to minister to the Gentiles, nor was His message "the kingdom gospel" sent to the Gentiles. He did not offer the "kingdom of heaven" To the Gentiles. The following scriptures support my view.

Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.

Since the Jews could not keep God's laws and the Gentiles were never given the laws, God NOW saves anyone that will place their faith in God's (Jesus') work on the cross. The purpose for this is so that Jesus gets all the glory for man's salvation.

I take it that no one wants to actually discuss the scriptures I gave but just go on as if they are not in the Bible. Did Jesus actually say what is in the scriptures given and we are to go on as if they don't mean anything?

 

[Danus]

I take it that no one wants to actually discuss the scriptures I gave but just go on as if they are not in the Bible. Did Jesus actually say what is in the scriptures given and we are to go on as if they don't mean anything?

Maybe you'll have better luck than I did. But, I'll discuss them with you if we can take one at a time. Early on we where discussing salvation, how you get it, how you keep it and if you can loose it.

My position is that we are saved by accepting Christ in faith; that we don't deserve it but that it is a free gift. Once we accept Christ in faith, a new work begins in us that builds us up. We may slip, we may fall, but Christ does not give up on the work he starts in us and no amount of "works" on our part will ensure our salvation beyond the faith that we have in Jesus Christ. The same faith that we started with in accepting Christ is the same faith we grow in following Christ, but it is the work of Christ not of us.

The floor is yours sir.

 

[shad]

so you never plan for the events of castopres then.

Yes, I have a plan. I will do whatever the Holy Spirit prepares me to do. That's why I read the bible and striving to be obedient to Him on a daily bases. Jesus says nothing is impossible with God's Help. I trust His Word.

I know that the Holy Spirit will instruct according to Jesus' teachings.

 

[shad]

Nope that's not what OSAS is about and you have no understanding of what it is about.

I know what you have been claiming; OSAS claims you don't need to be obedient to Jesus to be saved.

 

[jasoncran]

so you never plan for the events of castopres then.

Yes, I have a plan. I will do whatever the Holy Spirit prepares me to do. That's why I read the bible and striving to be obedient to Him on a daily bases. Jesus says nothing is impossible with God's Help. I trust His Word.

I know that the Holy Spirit will instruct according to Jesus' teachings.

but that doenst mean that one shouldnt take self-defense class nor learn rape and assualt avoidance class.

i allow the lord to control (direct) me at times, but that certain doesnt negate common sense. does one ask the lord how to use the commode?

 

[shad]

but that doenst mean that one shouldnt take self-defense class nor learn rape and assualt avoidance class.

You don't have to be violent to defend the innocent or yourself. If you behave like the rest of the world, you are no different from them. Jesus says to His followers to be salt and light of the world.

 

[jasoncran]

but that doenst mean that one shouldnt take self-defense class nor learn rape and assualt avoidance class.

You don't have to be violent to defend the innocent or yourself. If you behave like the rest of the world, you are no different from them. Jesus says to His followers to be salt and light of the world.

so, how does one stop a knife attack without even raising a finger?

do tell

 

[shad]

so, how does one stop a knife attack without even raising a finger?

Use your imagination. God does not give us commands we cannot obey.

And for the record, I never said "without raising a finger." Don't be a smart alec.

 

[Danus]

Nope that's not what OSAS is about and you have no understanding of what it is about.

I know what you have been claiming; OSAS claims you don't need to be obedient to Jesus to be saved.

OK Shad.

I must be under a different version.

 

[watchman F]

So I believe in God and I believe in Christ and that I must accept him in faith, repent of my sins and receive salvation... That's what I believe, and now your saying all that is backwards?

I'm starting to think you are arguing just to argue. :crazy

Yes your believes are backwards...why? Because you have left out the most important part....Endure until the end!!!!!, Endure, endure, endure!!!!!

I've no choice but to endure. I endure in my salvation. I walk with Christ and he has me. I've no plans to turn from it. Been going strong for 22 years now just growing in my faith.
That might be backwards from your experiences, but I hope not.

Just because you and I will not turn from our faith does not mean that it is not biblically possible that someone can.

 

[watchman F]

There you go again brother. I did not say we are saved without loving him. How can you assume I did?

Because you keep saying that you don't have to obey Jesus' commandments to be saved. And that's what OSAS is all about. And that's why is is flawed.

Nope that's not what OSAS is about and you have no understanding of what it is about. You think you reach salvation by first conforming. That's just not true. You reach salvation by first accepting. By accepting you then start conforming. You don't start conforming by that which you do, but by that which Christ does in you. That's obeying.

You place obedience before salvation to justify salvation. There is nothing more unbiblical than that, nothing more false than that, and if you are preaching that garbage to others, then you are the one propagating false doctrine.

That's why you go outside the mainstream denomination because you can't get away with it inside any true church. They will call you out for it. So, you hide. Maybe that is best, but you can't hide from God.

I believe it is you that does not understand OSAS Danus. the doctrine of OSAS teaches that becoming conformable to the word is not at all necessary, but that saying the sinners prayer and being baptized secures you for ever regardless of you level of commitment towards God.

 

[watchman F]

Nope that's not what OSAS is about and you have no understanding of what it is about.

I know what you have been claiming; OSAS claims you don't need to be obedient to Jesus to be saved.

OK Shad.

I must be under a different version.

You are. you are under the version that says if one does not conformed they were never saved which I agree with. Where you and I deffer is you believe anyone that falls away was never saved. Where I believe (because scripture teaches) that one can have a true conversion and then later turn from their faith.


However you are in the minority even among OSAS believers. Most OSAS believer also promote the free grace theology which teaches that one must simply admit, believe, and confess their sin, and then be baptized. After that they are eternally secure regardless of how they live their life.

 

[Danus]

You are. you are under the version that says if one does not conformed they were never saved which I agree with. Where you and I deffer is you believe anyone that falls away was never saved. Where I believe (because scripture teaches) that one can have a true conversion and then later turn from their faith.


However you are in the minority even among OSAS believers. Most OSAS believer also promote the free grace theology which teaches that one must simply admit, believe, and confess their sin, and then be baptized. After that they are eternally secure regardless of how they live their life.

This is becoming a broken record don't you agree?

We've gone through a few of the scriptures you gave to prove one can loose their salvation. I explained my understanding of them. You did not really refute it, just basically said; "no your wrong." but you won't say why. You think you can loose your salvation and I don't. I'm not sure a "conversion experience" is always the same as accepting salvation.

I think where we differ is on salvation itself and what it means to have faith. However, I don't know enough about your thoughts to say. But, from what I've read there seems to be a few sticking points that I have that you've not addressed.

So, official OSAS doctrine aside, if you don't mind can I asked you a few question?

True or False: Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man.

True or False: We are saved by accepting Christ in faith.

If you can give me your answers on these two we can move forward a little more.

 

[watchman F]

You are. you are under the version that says if one does not conformed they were never saved which I agree with. Where you and I deffer is you believe anyone that falls away was never saved. Where I believe (because scripture teaches) that one can have a true conversion and then later turn from their faith.


However you are in the minority even among OSAS believers. Most OSAS believer also promote the free grace theology which teaches that one must simply admit, believe, and confess their sin, and then be baptized. After that they are eternally secure regardless of how they live their life.

This is becoming a broken record don't you agree?

We've gone through a few of the scriptures you gave to prove one can loose their salvation. I explained my understanding of them. You did not really refute it, just basically said; "no your wrong''.

You are right there was no need to refute your explanation the scriptures themselves are clear. If you disagree you have disagreed with God's word if you disagree with God's word what in the world could i say that would change your mind.

 

[watchman F]

True or False: Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man.

Yes

True or False: We are saved by accepting Christ in faith.

Yes

 

[RichardBurger]

I take it that no one wants to actually discuss the scriptures I gave but just go on as if they are not in the Bible. Did Jesus actually say what is in the scriptures given and we are to go on as if they don't mean anything?

Maybe you'll have better luck than I did. But, I'll discuss them with you if we can take one at a time. Early on we where discussing salvation, how you get it, how you keep it and if you can loose it.

My position is that we are saved by accepting Christ in faith; that we don't deserve it but that it is a free gift. Once we accept Christ in faith, a new work begins in us that builds us up. We may slip, we may fall, but Christ does not give up on the work he starts in us and no amount of "works" on our part will ensure our salvation beyond the faith that we have in Jesus Christ. The same faith that we started with in accepting Christ is the same faith we grow in following Christ, but it is the work of Christ not of us.

The floor is yours sir.

I take it that you are saying God makes sinful people sinless in the flesh. Said another way, God makes those that live in a sinful flesh body sinless. Or is it that God only does a halve way job of making us sinless in the flesh.

There are two natures to the child of God. Paul talks about them (two natures waring against each other) in Romans 7. God does not make sinful flesh sinless, nor perfect. He makes the spirit sinless and perfect. Sinful flesh will never enter heaven. Flesh and blood will never enter heaven.

I reject the idea that we are being made perfect in the flesh. No one can stop sinning in the flesh. The child of God is sinless in the spirit (in Christ) not in his/her flesh and is made so by God Himself. And he/she is perfect the moment they are in Christ.

The doctrine that God is making the Christian perfect in the flesh is flat out wrong. If a person still sins in the flesh he/she is not perfect. Therefore we are certainly not being made perfect in the flesh, unless you assume God cannot completely save a person. He must have help.

The truth is that the child of God is perfect in his/her born again (born of the spirit) spirit and that happens as soon as the person is born of the spirit. I do not believe in progessive sanctification, progressive salvation, progessive righteousness or progressive anything..

 

[Danus]

True or False: Jesus died on the cross as a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man.

Yes

True or False: We are saved by accepting Christ in faith.

Yes

Would you say also that this following is true. Just posted on an other thread. I think it's a good example of faith.

To remove fear from our heart we must have perfect love (1John4:18). To have perfect love, is to have perfect faith in God; because God is love. When we have perfect faith in God, His love expressed through His sacrifice on the cross (in order to expiate for the sins we committed against Him) becomes a reality to us. We, therefore have an absolute confidence that He will protect us from evil. This frees us from anxiety and fear. Furthermore, because of this faith we too will forgive those who have betrayed us and have been unfaithful to us; and compensate for their offenses by sacrificing our pride and feelings, and by staying faithful to our commitments to them. In addition, because love is selfless, if we exercise love, we would be concerned about the pain and suffering of others, rather than our own. These would free us of jealousy, lust, hate and revenge.

 

[Danus]

I take it that no one wants to actually discuss the scriptures I gave but just go on as if they are not in the Bible. Did Jesus actually say what is in the scriptures given and we are to go on as if they don't mean anything?

Maybe you'll have better luck than I did. But, I'll discuss them with you if we can take one at a time. Early on we where discussing salvation, how you get it, how you keep it and if you can loose it.

My position is that we are saved by accepting Christ in faith; that we don't deserve it but that it is a free gift. Once we accept Christ in faith, a new work begins in us that builds us up. We may slip, we may fall, but Christ does not give up on the work he starts in us and no amount of "works" on our part will ensure our salvation beyond the faith that we have in Jesus Christ. The same faith that we started with in accepting Christ is the same faith we grow in following Christ, but it is the work of Christ not of us.

The floor is yours sir.

I take it that you are saying God makes sinful people sinless in the flesh. Said another way, God makes those that live in a sinful flesh body sinless. Or is it that God only does a halve way job of making us sinless in the flesh.

There are two natures to the child of God. Paul talks about them (two natures waring against each other) in Romans 7. God does not make sinful flesh sinless, nor perfect. He makes the spirit sinless and perfect. Sinful flesh will never enter heaven. Flesh and blood will never enter heaven.

I reject the idea that we are being made perfect in the flesh. No one can stop sinning in the flesh. The child of God is sinless in the spirit (in Christ) not in his/her flesh and is made so by God Himself. And he/she is perfect the moment they are in Christ.

The doctrine that God is making the Christian perfect in the flesh is flat out wrong. If a person still sins in the flesh he/she is not perfect. Therefore we are certainly not being made perfect in the flesh, unless you assume God cannot completely save a person. He must have help.

The truth is that the child of God is perfect in his/her born again (born of the spirit) spirit and that happens as soon as the person is born of the spirit. I do not believe in progessive sanctification, progressive salvation, progessive righteousness or progressive anything..

I can see where you might think I think that where I talked about growth, but I largely agree with you. Our condition is that of sinner by nature, but we are saved by being born again. That's what i mean when i say accepting Christ. ....question for you is can we loose that salvation that we accepted? If so How?

 

[jasoncran]

so, how does one stop a knife attack without even raising a finger?

Use your imagination. God does not give us commands we cannot obey.

And for the record, I never said "without raising a finger." Don't be a smart alec.

so you dont know then, i already know how to do it, as i have been well trained in joint locks but those often will break arms. or seriously injure.

i will flee if i can, but sometimes you have no way out.

i will use also use chokes, which if used properly can cause no permanent injury but can also kill if you want to. blood chokes not trach chokes.

but i'm a realist, i stand alot less of a chance against a knife wielder and will use a gun or other means to take him out if escape isnt possible.


see how hard that was. when you imply nonviolence, how does one not raise a finger.

 

[shad]

so you dont know then, i already know how to do it, as i have been well trained in joint locks but those often will break arms. or seriously injure.

By using your own logic and secular mentality, you are sinning against Jesus' commandments. You love yourself more than Jesus. Your logic does not harmonize with Jesus' words, doing so you are dishonoring Jesus completely. You don't trust His Word.

Your logic goes like this; if you follow Jesus' commandment, you cannot defend yourself and your family, therefore you should not follow His commandment.