According to Jesus...

[francisdesales]

I bring the military because it is accepted by mainstream churches as biblical practice for His followers. And I believe it is the most sinful practice as a whole. The military is nothing but politically correct practice, that's the main reason why it is accepted for popularity seeking churches, IMO.

Does Jesus ever speak against self-defense?

I think the ultra-passive position is not the intent of "turn the other cheek", since the comment reflects on a small backslap with the hand, an attack upon one's honor, rather than a physical assault to kill or maim. Note, Jesus teachings never takes on an anti-Rome tact. He says "give to Caesar what is his", and this implies the body to defend the freedom and peace you have under Roman rule, since Caesar rightfully demands it to maintain peace and tranquility.

Note, from an historical stance, Palestine had not known this level of peace and security from foreign powers as it had under Roman rule during the days of Jesus. John the Baptist recognizes this, also, by not telling soldiers to quit. Even "love your neighbor" does not mean we stand by idly as foreign powers attempt to kill us. That is not the definition of love - it abdicates one's God-given responsibilities to family and self. Paul says giving up the body to be burned, without love, is nothing. How can we say we love if we do not protect our families from evil?

Regards

 

[shad]

Does Jesus ever speak against self-defense?

Yes, according to what Jesus says in his commandment, "love your enemy".

 

[Danus]

[quote="watchman F":3uvx8i6m]I am responding to the emboldened part....I simply disagree. I do agree that most people who say they are saved are not, and almost all who leave the faith were not saved in the first place. However i do believe that someone who is truly been reborn can fall away, and i believe scripture teaches us that they can. Paul himself did not consider himself eternally secure until the end.

1st Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul knew it was possible to fall away, he knew it was possible for him to fall away.

1st Corinthians 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.

And would God then not pursue them? He says no one can snatch them. He says nothing can separate them. That would then be a contradiction. Also, how them might we keep our salvation if we can't even earn it? ...We said earlier that we get it by faith. Would you not say we keep it in the same way?

It contradicts your understanding. There really is no contradiction. No one can remove us from His hand that doesn't mean we hold us against our will. also it says nothing can separate us from His love. Just because He loves us doesn't mean we cannot reject him and our rejecting Him and choosing Hell doesn't mean He will stop loving us. We may not earn our salvation but we must receive it, and once we receive we do not have to keep it if we no longer want it. Yes we keep our salvation through faith but scripture tells us we can be moved away from our faith.

Colossians 1
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; [/quote:3uvx8i6m]

It seem you at least agree that we keep our salvation in the same way we gain it....Faith.

 

[watchman F]

It seem you at least agree that we keep our salvation in the same way we gain it....Faith.

Of course, but you know what James said.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

A man who willfully and unrepentantly lives in sexual immorality or any other sin for that matter, is showing me by his fruit he has no faith.

 

[Danus]

It seem you at least agree that we keep our salvation in the same way we gain it....Faith.

Of course, but you know what James said.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

A man who willfully and unrepentantly lives in sexual immorality or any other sin for that matter, is showing me by his fruit he has no faith.

Your getting a little beyond my discussion. Obviously someone living in willful sin does not bare fruit in the same way one who lives in faith does.

My position, and I think yours as well, is that faith is the key to salvation. I take that a step further by saying that we can't loose our salvation, but I will relent and say that to do so might mean we would have to loose our faith. ....I'm going to agree with you in part there, but I would question someone who totally looses their faith enough to say that they would turn from God.

My faith has been tested many of times, and it will again. I have questioned it, but never have I lost it.....to therefore loose salvation. When my faith has been tested I find I'm drawn closer to God. I don't expect crazy promises from God, other than that he is with me, will never leave me and that I will have eternal life. I don't question that.

To me OSAS works in my life. My faith has not shrunk; it's grown. To me OSAS is not false at all. Who is it dangerous for? I don't take my faith for granted. There are enough instructions in the bible to put ones faith to use.

OSAS doctrine does not attack Christians in saying they can do whatever they want; at least it's never been presented to me that way. I came to Christ on my own, but was taught that by accepting Christ in faith , receiving salvation and communing with Christ daily ..IE (living in the word and prayer) that I could never loose my salvation. Won't you grow your faith and keep your salvation if you do that? I know I have. Is that not your understanding of OSAS? Is there an evil version of it that I don't know about?

 

[francisdesales]

Does Jesus ever speak against self-defense?

Yes, according to what Jesus says in his commandment, "love your enemy".

Does Jesus define "love" in that manner - which means refusing to love your family? This is known as the sin of tempting the Lord - expecting God to do things that we are ordinarily responsible for and shirking them in the name of "God doing it for me". It's one thing to place things in God's Hands, but another to deny the responsibility that God gives us to protect our loved ones who cannot protect themselves from evil.

Have you considered that we are here by God's Will to protect them?

Regards

 

[shad]

Does Jesus define "love" in that manner - which means refusing to love your family?

Why do you think following Jesus' commandment is not loving our family? We are all determined to obey Jesus' commandments and we are all in agreement on this. I dont believe a minute if they cannot save me from evil-doers they don't love me. I will be so glad if they strive to obey Jesus in any circumstance.

Do you think Abraham was unloving because he was willing to offer his beloved son to God when he was told to? God was pleased when Abraham was willing to do what he was told to do. Abraham is a symbol of faith because of that account.

 

[jasoncran]

but that was rare occasion and if you really read that story abraham even tells isaac that the lord will provide the sacrifice. meaning that though abraham didnt realize it nor isaac, but us readers that the lord wanted to show us they he tested him and neither was so cruel that he would accept the death of isaac as worship. to me that was more of a trust issue , will abraham trust the lord with isaac? and faith as well

but we arnt called to that.

if a man take care not not of his own then he is worse then an infidel.

shad, the safety of my wife and her kids and grandkids when i my house or afar if i can assist is on me. letting some whack job kill them isnt what i would call provision now would i.

 

[watchman F]

It seem you at least agree that we keep our salvation in the same way we gain it....Faith.

Of course, but you know what James said.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

A man who willfully and unrepentantly lives in sexual immorality or any other sin for that matter, is showing me by his fruit he has no faith.

Your getting a little beyond my discussion. Obviously someone living in willful sin does not bare fruit in the same way one who lives in faith does.

My position, and I think yours as well, is that faith is the key to salvation. I take that a step further by saying that we can't loose our salvation, but I will relent and say that to do so might mean we would have to loose our faith. ....I'm going to agree with you in part there, but I would question someone who totally looses their faith enough to say that they would turn from God.

My faith has been tested many of times, and it will again. I have questioned it, but never have I lost it.....to therefore loose salvation. When my faith has been tested I find I'm drawn closer to God. I don't expect crazy promises from God, other than that he is with me, will never leave me and that I will have eternal life. I don't question that.

To me OSAS works in my life. My faith has not shrunk; it's grown. To me OSAS is not false at all. Who is it dangerous for? I don't take my faith for granted. There are enough instructions in the bible to put ones faith to use.

OSAS doctrine does not attack Christians in saying they can do whatever they want; at least it's never been presented to me that way. I came to Christ on my own, but was taught that by accepting Christ in faith , receiving salvation and communing with Christ daily ..IE (living in the word and prayer) that I could never loose my salvation. Won't you grow your faith and keep your salvation if you do that? I know I have. Is that not your understanding of OSAS? Is there an evil version of it that I don't know about?

I know that I would never turn from God either

 

[francisdesales]

Does Jesus define "love" in that manner - which means refusing to love your family?

Why do you think following Jesus' commandment is not loving our family? We are all determined to obey Jesus' commandments and we are all in agreement on this. I dont believe a minute if they cannot save me from evil-doers they don't love me. I will be so glad if they strive to obey Jesus in any circumstance.

When someone has it within their power to defend a loved one from evil - and refusing to do it - would you call that love? Part of loving someone is to defend the defenseless. If God has given you the ability to defend someone, aren't we to use that gift? Now, I'm talking about self-defense, not seeking out someone in anger to harm them.

Do you think Abraham was unloving because he was willing to offer his beloved son to God when he was told to? God was pleased when Abraham was willing to do what he was told to do. Abraham is a symbol of faith because of that account.

Good question. However, I think we are dealing with an exception, since God gave Abraham a promise - and God was testing Abraham. Abraham knew God would stick to His promise, even if another son was to be provided upon Isaac's offering to the Lord.

Regards

 

[shad]

When someone has it within their power to defend a loved one from evil - and refusing to do it - would you call that love? Part of loving someone is to defend the defenseless. If God has given you the ability to defend someone, aren't we to use that gift? Now, I'm talking about self-defense, not seeking out someone in anger to harm them.

Of course if you can defend without harming anyone you should. I will try to protect within my power. I will try to take away their weapon. However I may fail to do so then I may lose my life, and the meantime the victim have chance to escape. I am talking against those pro-violent Christians who are determined to kill the evil. This is not Jesus' will. I don't own the weapon, so I have no chance to kill anyone.

Good question. However, I think we are dealing with an exception, since God gave Abraham a promise - and God was testing Abraham. Abraham knew God would stick to His promise, even if another son was to be provided upon Isaac's offering to the Lord.

Abraham's' account is about faithfulness and obedience. He is an excellent example for Jesus' followers to imitate. Through out the Bible, God talks about obedience and faithfulness to death.

 

[Mysteryman]

Shad :

I will ask once again. Who is your enemy ? And please, this time don't give me any double talk, okay ?

When God tells us to love our enemies. Is God talking about someone who is about to rob you ?

I have seen Christians rob people. But a Christian is not your enemy ! He is a brother who needs to be turned around .

Does the word - "Love" suggest that you are to allow anyone to take advantage of you ? Does not the word tell us, not to take a brother to the law ? Correct, right ?

But what if they are not our brother in Christ ? Would it not be alright to take them to the law ?

 

[shad]

Shad :

I will ask once again. Who is your enemy ?

Again, this apples to many things. Your enemy is anything or anyone who is doing you harm or exploit you. It is not so difficult concept. It becomes complicated when you try to find the loopholes to make excuses to disobey.

I hope you are not being manipulative asking questions which many posters do.

 

[francisdesales]

Of course if you can defend without harming anyone you should. I will try to protect within my power. I will try to take away their weapon. However I may fail to do so then I may lose my life, and the meantime the victim have chance to escape. I am talking against those pro-violent Christians who are determined to kill the evil. This is not Jesus' will. I don't own the weapon, so I have no chance to kill anyone.

Actively seeking to destroy evil can be problematic, as you say, to the New Testament faith. I think the Catholic position regarding Iraq et. al. in recent American history is a good example the application of "just war" theology and why the Church did not support the war in Iraq based upon "weapons of mass destruction" that were unproven to exist.

Abraham's' account is about faithfulness and obedience. He is an excellent example for Jesus' followers to imitate. Through out the Bible, God talks about obedience and faithfulness to death.

Of course it does, but this in reference to our own personal struggle, not that we are to allow ourselves to be killed when evil is not done while defending oneself. The Ends do not justify the Means, but recall, the Commandment is "thou shall not murder", as the Bible clearly gives the community the power to take life in obeying God. Self-defense has been identified as a proper execution of God's will.

I am not quite so sure that God intends all men to become martyrs in all such cases of self-defense.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

Shad :

I will ask once again. Who is your enemy ?

Again, this apples to many things. Your enemy is anything or anyone who is doing you harm or exploit you. It is not so difficult concept. It becomes complicated when you try to find the loopholes to make excuses to disobey.

I hope you are not being manipulative asking questions which many posters do.

Hi Shad :

Our enemy is the adversary of God. You as well as some others here have taken this to mean a physical enemy, and this is why this conversation has become a never ending conversation. While a few here have tried to point you in the right direction. You continually try and suggest that anyone who wants to physically attack you is your enemy.

Jesus didn't think of this in the understanding you are suggesting. But when it came to those who wanted to kill Jesus , who were the enemies of God. Jesus said that their father was the devil, because of his lies and being a murderer from the beginning.

This conversation should have a long time ago, gone the way of the spiritual and not the physical.

Paul told us, that we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places"

 

[LaCrum]

Actively seeking to destroy evil can be problematic, as you say, to the New Testament faith. I think the Catholic position regarding Iraq et. al. in recent American history is a good example the application of "just war" theology and why the Church did not support the war in Iraq based upon "weapons of mass destruction" that were unproven to exist.

Off topic a bit, but did the Iraq War not also defend the defenseless? How many mass graves were found full of political opponents of Saddam?

Would you be against sending troops into Sudan to stop the greatest humanitarian crises of our time occuring there by the government's Janjaweed? Would not putting an end to a campaign against the black Africans living there that has cost over 400,000 lives and an untold number of rapes against women and children not be considred just?

How is "just war" to be defined?

 

[ORwarriOR]

Funny how much argument and commotion is caused when a principle like OSAS is introduced. Take into consideration where that principle came from. The apostle that introduced it, and what that apostle thought of himself and Christ ;)

 

[watchman F]

Funny how much argument and commotion is caused when a principle like OSAS is introduced. Take into consideration where that principle came from. The apostle that introduced it, and what that apostle thought of himself and Christ ;)

Augustus was the first to introduce OSAS, not any Apostle, and Calvin popularized it. We both know neither of these men had a true relationship with the true God of the Bible, but rather religion only.

 

[jasoncran]

Funny how much argument and commotion is caused when a principle like OSAS is introduced. Take into consideration where that principle came from. The apostle that introduced it, and what that apostle thought of himself and Christ ;)

Augustus was the first to introduce OSAS, not any Apostle, and Calvin popularized it. We both know neither of these men had a true relationship with the true God of the Bible, but rather religion only.

uh agustine did much for the very bible. you do well not to dismiss entirely.

and shad .lol, aikido is that which you(and attempt to disarm) think i shouldnt being doing along with most martial arts

but in the attempt to take a knife or disarm the enemy, one can break the arm and that may end the attack. legally and morally when i talk about the need to shoot or take the guys life, thats only if he or she remains a threat, i cant legally shoot somebody because they just stand there with a knife and dont move. they must use with the intent to stab. if they draw it and i pull my sidearm and warn them to drop it, and they do, then i cant shoot them. if they dont and i warn agian and they move, then i can shoot. and if they stop being a threat, ie wallow on the ground moaning the need to discharge my weapon is over.


i can and should have the police en route.

 

[shad]

Mysteryman,

So what is your point? It is ok to kill people who attack you? I dont think so. You are twisting around to suit your desire. Your interpretation is secular concept, not of Jesus, friend. It seems like you are playing word games.