According to Jesus...

[shad]

I am not quite so sure that God intends all men to become martyrs in all such cases of self-defense.

His commandments are not for the secular world; they are for His followers.

 

[shad]

Augustus was the first to introduce OSAS, not any Apostle, and Calvin popularized it. We both know neither of these men had a true relationship with the true God of the Bible, but rather religion only.

Thanks for the reminder; Calvin was a vicious man too. He ordered the killing of one non-trinitarian I know of. He did not have Jesus' spirit. It is just strange that so many churches follow his teachings even though Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

 

[shad]

and shad .lol, aikido is that which you(and attempt to disarm) think i shouldnt being doing along with most martial arts

Jason, I dont know any marshal arts and I am not strong; the odds are I will be killed if the attacker is vicious.

 

[Danus]

I know that I would never turn from God either

Sometimes I think it's not so much the words and terms we use, but the meanings we place behind them when it comes to healthy debate. You've learned more about me and I you. In the end we don't have to divide by that which we debate.

 

[francisdesales]

Actively seeking to destroy evil can be problematic, as you say, to the New Testament faith. I think the Catholic position regarding Iraq et. al. in recent American history is a good example the application of "just war" theology and why the Church did not support the war in Iraq based upon "weapons of mass destruction" that were unproven to exist.

Off topic a bit, but did the Iraq War not also defend the defenseless? How many mass graves were found full of political opponents of Saddam?

That was not the reason we went to Iraq. We discovered those graves after we were already there...

And even if we know about them, I am not so sure that this justifies "just war" for the United States of America. We are not God's police force. I think pre-emptive strikes are allowed only if the nation ITSELF is directly and seriously threatened with mass destruction, not if political malcontents are being persecuted. Otherwise, we'd have invaded Russia, China, Cuba, and half of Africa by now... :nag

Even the discovery of "concentration camps" would not be an acceptable Christian reason for a nation to take up arms against another, according to "just war" theory.

Would you be against sending troops into Sudan to stop the greatest humanitarian crises of our time occuring there by the government's Janjaweed? Would not putting an end to a campaign against the black Africans living there that has cost over 400,000 lives and an untold number of rapes against women and children not be considred just?

The mandate of the UN includes such actions, but the use of a military force does not mean it will be used offensively. The point is to protect the defenseless. Usually, humanitarian efforts are utilizing troops because of their ability to protect themselves as well as their organization and access to "nation-building" that is just not possible with civiian contract forces.

How is "just war" to be defined?

Now, remember, we are treading on Catholic Tradition and the Magesterium here, and this is an attempt to utilize the Bible in today's world. But the idea is that military force is only acceptable in self-defense in the face of a power that threatens to destroy you through force. It is presumed that all means of diplomacy have been exhausted. "Just war" is not exactly something set in stone, but rather, is a way of thinking that we are to be largely passive outside our borders - and that the defending of foreign "interests" is to be limited drastically. Vietnam or Korea would hardly qualify as "just war" acts, in my opinion, although some strongly held to that domino theory...

However, there is no official definitive statement that we consider infallible on the issue, which is why there is quite a bit of discussion on the issue within Catholicism. You are witnessing the development of doctrine!

Regards

 

[JamesG]

.
Francisdesales

What do you think of the preemptive strike idea of self defense?

JamesG

 

[jasoncran]

and shad .lol, aikido is that which you(and attempt to disarm) think i shouldnt being doing along with most martial arts

Jason, I dont know any marshal arts and I am not strong; the odds are I will be killed if the attacker is vicious.

then why not learn, one doest need strenght, i teach the lower belts in bjj. we have a new woman who is the weakest and with proper teaching, she could tap or choke me out.
i am the heaviest, and the skinniest kid(half of my weight) is able to stop me.

 

[shad]

then why not learn, one doest need strenght, i teach the lower belts in bjj. we have a new woman who is the weakest and with proper teaching, she could tap or choke me out.
i am the heaviest, and the skinniest kid(half of my weight) is able to stop me.

Martial arts sounds cool but I am good. thanks anyway.

 

[jasoncran]

then why not learn, one doest need strenght, i teach the lower belts in bjj. we have a new woman who is the weakest and with proper teaching, she could tap or choke me out.
i am the heaviest, and the skinniest kid(half of my weight) is able to stop me.

Martial arts sounds cool but I am good. thanks anyway.

what did i hear or read that right?

well if one wants to get in shape bjj and judo, is the best but i am biased toward those. though i do like others such as the karate i used to do and aikido.

 

[shad]

well if one wants to get in shape bjj and judo, is the best but i am biased toward those. though i do like others such as the karate i used to do and aikido.

You don't need any weapon to protect yourself if you know the martial arts. Why dont you preach about it instead of carrying around guns?

 

[watchman F]

Augustus was the first to introduce OSAS, not any Apostle, and Calvin popularized it. We both know neither of these men had a true relationship with the true God of the Bible, but rather religion only.

Thanks for the reminder; Calvin was a vicious man too. He ordered the killing of one non-trinitarian I know of. He did not have Jesus' spirit. It is just strange that so many churches follow his teachings even though Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

This is right Calvin was an unrepentant murderer, and we are supposed to take his word for what scripture teaches us? I think not!!!

 

[jasoncran]

because truth be told, even in martial arts (all good and practical ones) they are technigues that kill, maim. and suchlike. those are taught to be used when you may loose your life, limb etc.

and with a knife aint noone is all that. you may make it out alive, but you will get cut up or die, even though you got the knife.

i have read a book , rather gory one written by a guy who studied knife attacks and what was used as the sharp instrument, and he took the art of knife fighting(arnis,kali). he said that the victim will often feel being punched, and never really know that he was stabbed! and bleed to death.
often a good knife cut will sever the nerve in that area that tells you its bleeding.

the sickest story is when the guy fought off three attackers with his knife, he was stabing them in the vital organs, they knocked him out! he came too, and saw them after they did the three foot step and drop and bleed out. he felt merciful and called the ambulance

it simply couldnt finish that book as well his means of telling the story made it sound like oh well it was just another say i cut this guy or that guy got cut up.

 

[Danus]

[quote="watchman F":2db1v0ve]Augustus was the first to introduce OSAS, not any Apostle, and Calvin popularized it. We both know neither of these men had a true relationship with the true God of the Bible, but rather religion only.

Thanks for the reminder; Calvin was a vicious man too. He ordered the killing of one non-trinitarian I know of. He did not have Jesus' spirit. It is just strange that so many churches follow his teachings even though Jesus says we know them by their fruit.

This is right Calvin was an unrepentant murderer, and we are supposed to take his word for what scripture teaches us? I think not!!![/quote:2db1v0ve]


Sorry you guys are cracking me up at this point. .... burning people at the steak was a hobby of many in that day. I guess it's a good thing this is all on line and we don't all live in the same village

I feel guilty for not buying a ticket to this show.

 

[watchman F]

Sorry you guys are cracking me up at this point. .... burning people at the steak was a hobby of many in that day. I guess it's a good thing this is all on line and we don't all live in the same village

I feel guilty for not buying a ticket to this show.

Yeah and because it was a part of their culture doesn't make it right. And when they go to their death bed unrepentant of it then they went to Hell. Just like abortion it is our culture, but it is still murder. Of course we can be forgiven if we repent, but unrepentance mean no forgiveness. I said Calvin was a ''UNREPENTANT'' murderer. At his death he still claimed the killing of Servetus was justified.

If a JW come to my door tomorrow would it be murder for me to drag him into my home and kill him because he doesn;t believe in the trinity? Of course it would, and what Calvin did was murder he never repentant, yet you accept the word of a murderer as true doctrine. I think that is absurd. Next you will be telling me Charlie Manson has enough discernment to teach scriptural truth.

 

[turnorburn]

I'm missing something here, how would a person go about giving a gift back to God?

 

[watchman F]

I'm missing something here, how would a person go about giving a gift back to God?

2 easy steps
#1 Tell Him You do not want it any more
#2 Return to your sin

2nd Peter 2
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Worse of than before they were saved??? Before they were saved they were on their way to Hell. How can you be worse of from on your way to Hell, if you are still going to Heaven?

 

[jasoncran]

watchman, i did that when i sinned in bisexuality, i repented before i went there( i never went to a christian church) and i also knew that lord was real.yet over him I chose a gay man.

if we were to really look at the men who influenced the bible interpretation.
you arent catholic, luther killed jews so was his reformation off as well.for he read romans 10 and saw it and believed that was the way to heaven.

i am not saying that luther nor calvin are saints, but if theres biblical basis for what they saw, in the bible, why not take it as such.

 

[watchman F]

watchman, i did that when i sinned in bisexuality, i repented before i went there( i never went to a christian church) and i also knew that lord was real.yet over him I chose a gay man.

if we were to really look at the men who influenced the bible interpretation.
you arent catholic, luther killed jews so was his reformation off as well.for he read romans 10 and saw it and believed that was the way to heaven.

i am not saying that luther nor calvin are saints, but if theres biblical basis for what they saw, in the bible, why not take it as such.

I believe the bible as it was written. Not how Luther or Calvin interpreted it.

 

[jasoncran]

watchman, i did that when i sinned in bisexuality, i repented before i went there( i never went to a christian church) and i also knew that lord was real.yet over him I chose a gay man.

if we were to really look at the men who influenced the bible interpretation.
you arent catholic, luther killed jews so was his reformation off as well.for he read romans 10 and saw it and believed that was the way to heaven.

i am not saying that luther nor calvin are saints, but if theres biblical basis for what they saw, in the bible, why not take it as such.

I believe the bible as it was written. Not how Luther or Calvin interpreted it.

can you really say that they have had no influence?
i mean if we didnt have freedom of religion and so on, you might not be so inclined to look for yourself, as back then the church was the state and heresies meant death!

 

[watchman F]

can you really say that they have had no influence?
i mean if we didnt have freedom of religion and so on, you might not be so inclined to look for yourself, as back then the church was the state and heresies meant death!

I have absolutely no influences (outside the guidance of the holy spirit which I prayed for before I ever read a thing). When I started reading the bible anytime I came across something that said opposite of what I was taught or though, I simply threw out the old belief and believed the bible. And yes if I live in those days i would have been killed for hersies, but alas it was they who taught lies. I will still probably end my life as a martyr if America keeps going the way it is headed.