According to Jesus...

[shad]

Also, can you tell me exactly what text in the book of Revelation you might be referring to?

Read the OP, they are all against Calvin's predestination doctrine.

 

[Danus]

[quote="watchman F":2p9xtlo8]Did you even read those verses if you can fall from the faith then you can loose your salvation. It is not rocket science. The bible is easy to understand. Simply reject the false teaching you have been indoctrinated into and accept God's word for what it says.

Ok, let's go thought scripture. I will let you toss in whatever scriptures you like and we can talk about them. All I ask is that we take one or two at a time, so that we have a straightforward discussion in detail. Lets look at 1 of the scriptures you quoted. Matthew 7: 21-23.

Also before we start, let me reiterate my position and theology I guess. I hold a reformist Protestant view of Imputed righteousness. I believe that I am a sinner by my very nature and that my salvation lies solely on the blood of Christ and my acceptance of that in faith and faith alone. Nothing I do will make a difference as far as me being righteous alone by any effort I may put forth.

So, I come to Christ as a sinner. I recognize my condition. I repent and I accept Christ; that Christs sacrifice was for my salvation as well as all of mankind. All we have to do is accept it in faith and once we do that we are saved. Once we are saved we can not loose that SALVATION. We may loose our way, we may stumble, we may fall ect...but we will not loose the very thing so many Christians question.....our salvation.

So you say that is not true. You say that is a false teaching and you have given Mathew 7: 21-23 to back up the idea that it's false. Let's look at it.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

First what is the context? Jesus is giving the sermon on the mnt. Specifically in Chp 7 Jesus starts by addressing judging others. He gives us a string of advice. He warns us about false profits and says we will know them by the fruit they bare.... then he says 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.....so what does this mean? It seems to mean that not everyone who claims to believe will in fact believe, or be real in their faith.
Further we see.....
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....This speaks of works. It's classic self righteousness....it's as if to say "did we not do good by our own efforts? I mean I called myself a Christian and I did all the things. I tried real hard!" 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' .....So are the evil doers the ones with faith? Or, the ones with said faith and works? If we get anything from this text Jesus is distinguishing between two types of Christians, if you will. Those who have faith in him for their salvation and those who have faith in themselves and their own efforts for their salvation.

So again, OSAS says that we have faith in Christ and Christ alone for our salvation and in that we are saved and we can not loose that. It has NOTHING to do with our efforts. So Mathew 7 21-23 backs up OSAS. It backs up imputed righteousness not infused righteousness. But you might say; what about the will of the father? What about doing Gods will?" yes, Gods will is that you have faith in him and not that of yourself. That's the will of God when you accept his gift of salvation. When you accept it. You can not do Gods will until you relinquish yourself in trade for faith in Jesus.

Keep in mind, that you are saying accepting Christ is not enough. You are saying that that is only part of it and that you have to ....I don;t know, be good, be righteous, walk the line, follow all the rules...do good things I guess? Your saying you have to perform after you accept.......What if your performance is substandard? I mean if you admit you are a sinner and repent aren't you already saying you can't preform? Isn't it Christ who gives you anything at all? and lastly, in order for Christ to work on you, must you not give up yourself? If you Give up yourself does that not require faith? Faith in Christ over yourself?................now these are rhetorical questions but you may answer if you like.

I think the answer is clear that faith in Christ over yourself says that your efforts to be a Christian are worthless to that of your faith. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....that's not it brother. That's not doing the will of God who loves you so much that he gave his only son for your salvation....not your efforts..or rules for your to follow, but freely paid for your salvation. You can not earn it. You can not do anything for it but accept it in faith and faith alone.........But, can you loose it? If you can.....How? if you can't accept Christ, nor are you accepted by Christ on your efforts.....how then can you loose Christ on your efforts if you have accepted him in faith? YOU CAN'T.

So, Mathew 7: 21-23 is saying that you are not saved by works. You will not be known by your efforts..and keeping your nose clean. 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Your response didn't even address any of the scripture I gave to disprove OSAS. Sooo, I felt no need to address your post.[/quote:2p9xtlo8]

I asked that we take one verse at a time and I give you one verse that you quoted . You quoted Mathew 7:21-23 and I sent you a lengthy reply about that verse. You read it and can't refute it obviously.

However thank you for replying as much as you did.

 

[watchman F]

I asked that we take one verse at a time and I give you one verse that you quoted . You quoted Mathew 7:21-23 and I sent you a lengthy reply about that verse. You read it and can't refute it obviously.

However thank you for replying as much as you did.

I did not quote Matthew 7 in an attempt to disprove OSAS, I referenced it in response to you asking how someone can know they are saved, and to show many people who think they are save are not.


If you want to refute the scripture I gave disproving OSAS start with these from this post.

Scripture is clear on that. We are saved by enduring until the end, not being moved away from the faith.

Matthew 24
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Colossians 1
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:
23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

2nd Timothy 4:7 I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:

Hebrews 3
6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Revelation 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:


Here are 7 passage of scripture that says we must finish the race/endure until the end to obtain eternal life as Paul says in Philippians 3
Philippians 3
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

And again in 1st Corinthians
1st Cor 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.


Paul knew starting the race meant nothing, but finishing the race brought about eternal life.


I have shown you many passages that says we must endure to be granted eternal life, now you give me one that says starting the race is all we must do.

 

[shad]

Does this then mean God does not know who will be saved, or am I reading that wrong?

Jesus will wait to judge us until the time comes.

Does God still have ultimate control of our actions, therfore allowing us to be saved or not?

God does not control us, He gives us free will to accept His offering or reject it. But He gives us consequences for both; one is eternal life and the other is perishing.

"For God so love the world that He gave His only begotten Son that who ever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life."

 

[Danus]

If you want to refute the scripture I gave disproving OSAS start with these from this post.
Scripture is clear on that. We are saved by enduring until the end, not being moved away from the faith.

Matthew 24
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Thank you watchman f.

Let me start with Mathew 24:12-13 then.

Context: Jesus just leaves the temple where he's been holding a discussion with the Pharisees. He's with his disciples. He is now talking about the signs of the end of the age starting in ch 24. He talks about the destruction of the temple which was fulfilled in AD 70 (Circa) by the Romans, so that is the end of the age in question. This is something that effects the Jewish people deeply and Jesus is referring to that. There does also seem to be a parallel between this time and the time just before Christ return which is still yet to happen in our time.

So what does this mean in relation to OSAS?

Matthew 24:12-13 (New International Version)
12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

There is an increase of wickedness in this time Jesus is speaking of, which again is the end of age; the destruction of the temple by the Romans in 70 AD. We learn that the love of most will grow cold. Most who? people in general? Jews? Christians? Then we learn that those who stand firm to the end will be saved. So, who are those who stand firm? Does he speak of Christians?

I would add a few verses to what you gave. So let's back it up to 9-14

Matthew 24:9-14 (New International Version)
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Again, we have Jesus speaking to his disciples about the destruction of the temple 70 AD by the Romans. Those who are Christ followers, those with faith in Christ, will be handed over for prosecution and hated by many nations. We have historical evidence of that. Christ followers are so by faith, but as in today's time, some are only said faith. Those who are of said faith will turn away from THE faith, not their faith, but THE faith completely. In fact many false profits will pop up. In the end of this age he speaks of this gospel will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations (people) the THEN....the end will come.

So again, OSAS says we are saved by our FAITH in Christ. Christ says in this text that those who are of faith will be saved. The text you quoted supports what OSAS says and truly means. It has not thing to do with saying that OSAS if false....nothing at all. I even put more in it than you did and still nothing.

I hope you might comment on it further. Tomorrow I will tackle another scripture you listed. Thank you for getting back to me.

 

[shad]

I understand that, but does God/Jesus have foreknowledge of the outcome of that judgement?

He is capable of knowing the outcome but He will not control our minds.

Are you saying that God does not have control of his creation?

He will not control our minds, not because He is unable.

 

[Hawkins]

This is the meat of the argument on this thread. Your view of salvation is that you have to perform in some manor to be saved. Good luck with your performance. If you think that you can preform your way into slvation by all your good works.....you'll never make it. You are saved by the grace of God through your faith in Jesus Christ, and you can know you are saved through that.

This is the most clueless post I happen to see in this thread. Please read back carefully. Jesus.

Your deeds never save you, your deeds give you a reference to self-estimate if you are following Jesus's teaching. Without good work how can you say that you are the saved. It is through the good work that you and others can measure to say that you look like someone who possess the correct kind of faith to be saved. You lock yourself up in a small cell without doing anything then noone, perhaps including yourself, knows (or rather can evaluate) that if you are saved! Only when you act that others can check if you behave like a second born Christian in accordance to the Bible teaching.

Salvation is not like a High School football team where you show up, try out and you make it or your cut based on your performance. If it was then no one is saved, because to be saved under that idea would mean that you would have to fullfill all of Gods law. you would have to be in perfect union with God just as Christ was. Show me one who is.

Your holding another view that seems to say God has a list of names that he put together with all the saved people. You are not even considering Christ and what was done on the cross.

You are so clueless about what I am trying to say. You are in a total mistake to assume that I am from the "save by work" bandwagon.

No to make it simple, answer my this question.

If you lock yourself up in a smaill hut without doing anything, without talking to anyone. Who can evaluate that you are saved or not, even when people see you all the times?

 

[Hawkins]

Ok, I understand, God has the ability, he just wont do it, Ok, I just wanted to understand your aqeedah.

Usually He won't gain control on freewill. What's wrong with that? He'd make robots instead of humans if He controls your mind that way.

 

[Vic C.]

If you lock yourself up in a smaill hut without doing anything, without talking to anyone. Who can evaluate that you are saved or not, even when people see you all the times?

The LORD and No One else. :yes

Psa 18:2 The LORD is my rock, and my fortress, and my deliverer; my God, my strength, in whom I will trust; my buckler, and the horn of my salvation, and my high tower.

Where in the Bible does it suggest our salvation is based on the evaluations of others?



Psa 18:46 The LORD liveth; and blessed be my rock; and let the God of my salvation be exalted.

HE gets ALL the glory for my salvation! :amen

 

[Danus]

This is the meat of the argument on this thread. Your view of salvation is that you have to perform in some manor to be saved. Good luck with your performance. If you think that you can preform your way into slvation by all your good works.....you'll never make it. You are saved by the grace of God through your faith in Jesus Christ, and you can know you are saved through that.

This is the most clueless post I happen to see in this thread. Please read back carefully. Jesus.

Your deeds never save you, your deeds give you a reference to self-estimate if you are following Jesus's teaching. Without good work how can you say that you are the saved. It is through the good work that you and others can measure to say that you look like someone who possess the correct kind of faith to be saved. You lock yourself up in a small cell without doing anything then noone, perhaps including yourself, knows (or rather can evaluate) that if you are saved! Only when you act that others can check if you behave like a second born Christian in accordance to the Bible teaching.

Salvation is not like a High School football team where you show up, try out and you make it or your cut based on your performance. If it was then no one is saved, because to be saved under that idea would mean that you would have to fullfill all of Gods law. you would have to be in perfect union with God just as Christ was. Show me one who is.

Your holding another view that seems to say God has a list of names that he put together with all the saved people. You are not even considering Christ and what was done on the cross.

You are so clueless about what I am trying to say. You are in a total mistake to assume that I am from the "save by work" bandwagon.

No to make it simple, answer my this question.

If you lock yourself up in a smaill hut without doing anything, without talking to anyone. Who can evaluate that you are saved or not, even when people see you all the times?

Maybe I'm confused on your possition. Here is waht you wrote that I was responding to.

Now someone is thought to be saved. He performs like a Christian in every aspects. He's baptized. Every men said that he's saved. Yet years later, he decides to leave the church, he even decides to change his belief to Islam (or whatever religion you consider him as unsaved). Anyway, he somehow turns out to be the unsaved.

The argument I am making/defending, is that once you are saved you can not loose your salvation. Are your saying, in what you wrote, that someone claims to be a Christian and leaves the faith? Or, are you saying that someone is a Christian, and at some point decided to leave the church? IE thier salvatiopn? Which is it?
If your saying someone who simply claims to be a Christian later leaves the faith, then I guess I agree. But if your saying someone who is a Christian and accepts Christ in faith later leaves the faith, then I'm deiagreeing with that notion.
I am saying we are NOT saved by our works. You seem to be in agreement with your rebutle, but I can't tell from your post what your argument is or what your defending so can you clearify? I apologize if I've missunderstood you. This thread is about OSAS correct or not.

 

[Danus]

It appears this thread is loosing some interest, and perhaps for good reason, but why?

The OP began by making a bold statement in saying that OSAS doctrine is wrong. However, when challenged to prove, or even discuss the matter, all that has been given are biblical verses that have absolutely nothing to do with disproving the thoughts and idea behind OSAS. Whats more, most of you who have been posted have all the sudden become too busy to talk about it.

The reason is that the proponents arguing against OSAS can’t prove what they say, and obviously don’t know what OSAS doctrine even means. When cornered all that they can give are “tid-bits†of scripture that again have nothing to do with arguing against OSAS and in fact often support what OSAS really is.

So what is OSAS? A better question would be what is it NOT?

OSAS is not a license to sin like so many think it is. It is not permission not to read your bible. It is not just some prayer you pray. OSAS is about the true nature of eternal salvation for those who have accepted Christ in faith. Those who have experienced this know without a doubt that they are saved, once and for all. It is one of the cornerstones of the Protestant reformation, and it is 100% biblical truth.

There are several easy key factual biblical points to back up OSAS.

1. We are saved by faith alone. NOT BY ANY WORKS of our own. There is nothing you can o to earn your salvation. You will never be good enough for it and you don’t deserve it by your very nature, but once you receive it you will have eternal life.

John 3:36 (New International Version)
36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."

John 5:24 (New International Version)
24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.
____________________________________________________________________________________
2. Salvation is a free gift to ALL mankind by the grace of God alone. If we had to work to keep it — it would not be a free gift — and God would be a liar!

Romans 6:23 (New International Version)
23For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[a] Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 5:18 (New International Version)
18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
_____________________________________________________________________________________
3. Once you receive salvation by faith you are born again. Salvation is not an enduring process, but an event in time. Salvation is a NEW BIRTH. Just as your first birth happened on a certain time and day, so does the second birth.

2 Corinthians 6:2 (New International Version)
2For he says, "In the time of my favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you." I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation.

John 3:3 (New International Version)
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.

1 Peter 1:23 (New International Version)
23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
____________________________________________________________________________________
4. When you are born again you belong to God and NOTHING can separate us from God.

Romans 8:38-39 (New International Version)
38For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

John 10:29 (New International Version)
29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand.
______________________________________________________________________________________
5. God will not leave you or forsake you in your new birth and you will have eternal life.

Hebrews 13:5 (New International Version)
5Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you.

John 6:37 (New International Version)
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
6. When we accept Christ in faith, we are made complete in Jesus Christ not of ourselves in any way. WE CAN NOT CHOOSE TO LOOSE WHAT WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN.

Colossians 2:10 (New International Version)
10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
______________________________________________________________________________________

These verses are only a tip of the truth behind OSAS. Those who understand it understand their faith and understand their salvation completely. So why do people have problems with OSAS? What if we sin after we are saved? Won’t God punish us if we are not good?

If you have questions about OSAS, I urge anyone who is reading this to study it. Salvation is simple, but it starts with your faith and your relationship with Christ. I have provided a few simple resources below for anyone who would like to know more about being saved and truly knowing you are saved.

http://www.allaboutgod.com/once-saved-always-saved.htm

http://www.av1611.org/etern.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved- ... saved.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints

 

[shad]

OSAS is false assurance according to Jesus' words. The assurance we have is that we will be saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end.

Are you being faithful to Jesus? Are you keeping His commandment of "love your enemy"? If you are supporting the military, you are already being unfaithful to Him. This is clear disobedience, folks.

I am mentioning this because most of us think we are faithful to Him. Instead of arguing about the doctrines, we should strive to be obedient to Him.

Most of us take sin so lightly; it should not be this way. The churches dont take sin seriously, it seems.

We are only playing Christians if we don't take sin seriously.

 

[watchman F]

If you want to refute the scripture I gave disproving OSAS start with these from this post.
Scripture is clear on that. We are saved by enduring until the end, not being moved away from the faith.

Matthew 24
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved

Thank you watchman f.

Let me start with Mathew 24:12-13 then.

Context: Jesus just leaves the temple where he's been holding a discussion with the Pharisees. He's with his disciples. He is now talking about the signs of the end of the age starting in ch 24. He talks about the destruction of the temple which was fulfilled in AD 70 (Circa) by the Romans, so that is the end of the age in question. This is something that effects the Jewish people deeply and Jesus is referring to that. There does also seem to be a parallel between this time and the time just before Christ return which is still yet to happen in our time.

So what does this mean in relation to OSAS?

What does it have to do with OSAS?? Only those that endure keeping the faith until the end of their live or His return will receive eternal life this verse alone disproves the false teaching of OSAS.

 

[Danus]

Matthew 24:9-14 (New International Version)
9"Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

What does it have to do with OSAS?? Only those that endure keeping the faith until the end of their live or His return will receive eternal life this verse alone disproves the false teaching of OSAS.

No brother, it does not say those who keep the faith, nor does it mean keep the faith. Those who stand firm are those who have faith. To stand firm requires faith and faith in Christ is not of your own.

Having faith and keeping faith mean totally different things. You either have faith or you don’t. You can’t keep faith by your own efforts. You first have faith in Christ. Once you have faith in Christ, where by you believe in Christ totally then you know, then you can stand firm faithfully, but not before.

*********************************************************************************************************************

OSAS is false assurance according to Jesus' words. The assurance we have is that we will be saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end.

(The assurance we have is that we will be saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end.)
This statement says that we must make an effort to be faithful, but when you have faith in Christ, being faithful to Christ is not an effort at all.

Your statement needs an adjustment to match up with Gods word. Replace the word “To†with the word “In†and take off the suffix on faithfully. Here is how it should look.
(The assurance we have is that we will be saved until the end if we have faith in Jesus Christ.)

There is a huge difference in these two statements. I’ll get to sin in a minute, but first; the bible does not tell us that we are saved when we are faithful; it says we are saved when we have faith in Christ. At issue is the word faith and how that is applied by us in Christ? Is it faithfully following him or is it following him in faith? It’s critical to understand the difference, but what is the difference?

I’ve no doubt that you know what faithfully following Christ is, but let’s look at what following Christ in faith is.

Here are a couple of illustrations about this faith I am speaking of. One is from Christ himself and the other is a modern metaphor. We’ll look at the metaphor first.

Let’s suppose you are drowning in the Ocean and the life guard swims out to save you. When he gets to you he finds you flailing about trying to keep your head above water. You are trying to save yourself. If you continue doing that the life guard is going to have a hard time trying to bring you in. It’s possible that you could endanger the life guard as well. It would be better if you where unconscious for him to swim back to shore with you. In other words, it would be easier if you had given up your efforts. You’d get back to shore quicker and the life guard could then work on saving you….but, that is to scary isn’t it? You may die if you place your trust in the life guard and just give up fighting, but the life guard is willing to fight for you. However, for him to do his job you have to trust in him and to trust him you have to give up trying.

That’s one illustration of how it’s difficult but necessary to trust. But, there is another illustration from Christ himself that explains it fully.

Luke 18:18-23
18A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.
21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth.

This is a classic example of a “said faith†vs a real faith. This rich man has a said faith. He wants to follow Jesus but he can not trust Christ enough to give up that which he has his faith in….his wealth. It’s better in his mind to hold on to his wealth than to follow Christ even though he wants to follow Christ. To him, eternal life is not guaranteed and it’s not because he is unwilling to accept Christ, but because he not willing to accept Christ in true faith. He’s willing to be faithful, but that is not enough because without faith in Christ, his efforts to follow Christ are worthless.

Christ even points this out. 19"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. Here we see Christ clearly stating that no one is good, but God. So if this man is calling him good, he must know that Jesus is God. So he gives him a little test by asking him if he knows the commandments. And then the man says back to him. 21"All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. In other words this man is saying that he is good….but he’s not. Jesus just told him no one is good but God.

Then Jesus gives him one more shot to understand and accept him in faith. 22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."….You still lake one thing, Faith; True faith in him. He’s asking him to have faith by selling that which he has placed his faith in….his money, his wealth. But this man can’t do it. He can’t do it because he’s unwilling to trust. He would rather follow Jesus by his own efforts.

If Christ where to ask either of you how you stand firm, or how you intend to follow him faithfully, as you say is required, you would answer him just like the rich man said; by following Gods commandments. Then he would say to you the same thing he said to the rich man: 22When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Your efforts to gain eternal salvation may be commendable, but you can not save yourself. You have to give up first. Like the rich man you are not good. None of us are, and no amount of effort will change that. You can’t follow the commandments, no one can.

You want to be like Christ? You have to let Christ take the wheel in your life. You have to give up first, your efforts to be good so that Christ can start a good work in you. You have nothing to do with that process, just like you have nothing to do with rescuing yourself while drowning. You have faith in Christ first, then you follow him. Just like the life guard, Christ does not give up on the work he starts in you. Once you accept Christ in faith; you are saved, Christ begins a good work in you; you follow him then.... and ......you can not loose it. Once saved, always saved.

I am not saying these things to you to win a prize, brothers. I am completely convicted and I have no choice at this point in my walk, nor can I turn back. If you knew me before I came to Christ, you would not recognize now. If you told me that some day I would follow Christ…I’d have laughed. I’m I good? No, but Christ is and Christ leads me. I have seen my life change like a muddy class of water being filtered over and over and over, and each time getting clearer and cleaner. That’s the best way I can describe my self, my salvation and that which I wish for no man to be without.

 

[shad]

(The assurance we have is that we will be saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end.)
This statement says that we must make an effort to be faithful, but when you have faith in Christ, being faithful to Christ is not an effort at all.

Take a look at my OP. They are not my words but Jesus'.

I guess most of us have to believe we don't have to be faithful to Jesus since we don't take sin seriously and live in sin.

 

[jasoncran]

uh, no, danus is saying that we arent able to sinless. unless you think that day you die there wont be any sin in your heart nor mouth or indeed. you need some grace.

will the lord send you to hell for speeding and loosing control of the vehicle and dying without repenting?

that type of death is quick so quick that you will only try to concentrate on saving your neck not trying to pray, though you may cry out, but for this argument you didnt. where will you be.

 

[shad]

uh, no, danus is saying that we arent able to sinless. unless you think that day you die there wont be any sin in your heart nor mouth or indeed. you need some grace.

Jesus knows if we are truly His or not. We are not His if we cannot believe in Him that we cannot overcome our sins with God's help.

 

[watchman F]

(The assurance we have is that we will be saved if we are faithful to Jesus until the end.)
This statement says that we must make an effort to be faithful, but when you have faith in Christ, being faithful to Christ is not an effort at all.

Take a look at my OP. They are not my words but Jesus'.

I guess most of us have to believe we don't have to be faithful to Jesus since we don't take sin seriously and live in sin.

The problem is shad danus doesn't care about what Jesus said, he is more concerned about what pastor so and so tells him is true.

 

[watchman F]

uh, no, danus is saying that we arent able to sinless. unless you think that day you die there wont be any sin in your heart nor mouth or indeed. you need some grace.

will the lord send you to hell for speeding and loosing control of the vehicle and dying without repenting?

that type of death is quick so quick that you will only try to concentrate on saving your neck not trying to pray, though you may cry out, but for this argument you didnt. where will you be.

Of course God does not send people to hell for speeding and no one that believe that a believer can fall away thinks so.

 

[Danus]

The problem is shad danus doesn't care about what Jesus said, he is more concerned about what pastor so and so tells him is true.

Take a look at my OP. They are not my words but Jesus'.

I guess most of us have to believe we don't have to be faithful to Jesus since we don't take sin seriously and live in sin.

I give you a lengthy, thoughtful rebuttal and this is the best you can come back with?

You want me to re-read you post shad? I'm responding to it with the words of Christ. You stated OSAS is wrong yet I'm saying your not looking at the scriptures deep enough. Anyone can take a sentence of to from the bible, make a statement and make it look as though the bible supports it. Atheist do it all the time.

I have no doubt that either of you desire to follow Christ, but from what you have stated you are attempting to faithfully follow Christ without faith in Christ. Your putting the cart before the horse.

A few years ago I went to see an allergist. I asked him; "what can I do to get rid of these allergies?" He said; "well you can live in a sterile environment and never go outside, or I can give you some medications to protect you." So now I don't mow my lawn without a mask. I take something for my allergies before I go outside......I assume you either live in a sterile spiritual environment or you are repenting from sin every minute of the day. Without faith in Christ you are not protected from sin.....Just as I can't wish my allergies away....I need the medication to work in me to protect me.

You have to get Christ in you first before you step out if you intend to be protected from sin. Does not mean you will not sin, or ever ask for forgiveness, you will. Heck I still sneeze from time to time even though I take my allergy medication... But, the change starts with Christ in you first and that requires faith in Christ. Once you accept Christ in faith, your salvation is assured. He's got you and you can not loose it. Don't reject this brothers. Try it out....explore it deeper.