According to Jesus...

[Hawkins]

Well said, amen. But you should know that that's not what Calvinists' OSAS doctrine says.

Calvinists don't need to be right, yet it by no means says that there is no 'right'. And the Calvinists' concept about pre-destination is not necessarily right, either. However, it no means says that there is no pre-destination.

 

[Danus]

So do I speak the truth or not?! Do you mean that we can judge? We can approaximate, which is good enough for us to do a self-estimation, by looking at our own good work at the moment.



That won't contradict what I said. Plus that no one fully understands what pre-destination is. And we are pre-destined in a way that our names are written in the Book of Life. That's the Bible teaching, and fact.

No that's not the truth. You are saved when you accept Christ through faith. You are saved. Not you might be saved, You are saved when you accept Christ through faith. All of us will be judged, but those who are saved will be saved when they accept Christ through faith. Will all those who say they believe in Christ be saved? NO. Look back the the verses watchman F posted, Mathew 7: 21-23.

Predestination is not hard to understand at all. Only God knows the end, true, but you can know if you are saved or not. If you seek Christ you will find him. Again check out Mathew 7 verses 7-8. You can have assurance that you are in that book.

 

[Danus]

Well said, amen. But you should know that that's not what Calvinists' OSAS doctrine says.

Calvinists don't need to be right, yet it by no means says that there is no 'right'. And the Calvinists' concept about pre-destination is not necessarily right, either. However, it no means says that there is no pre-destination.

You lost me on that one.

 

[shad]

. However, it no means says that there is no pre-destination.

Pre- destination is not contextual. God does not determine who will be saved and not to be saved. If so no one is to be blamed for any kind of evil deeds.

 

[Danus]

. However, it no means says that there is no pre-destination.

Pre- destination is not contextual. God does not determine who will be saved and not to be saved. If so no one is to be blamed for any kind of evil deeds.

I like it.. Hey I got to support you where I can. I would swap the word blamed for judged.

 

[Hawkins]

No that's not the truth. You are saved when you accept Christ through faith. You are saved. Not you might be saved, You are saved when you accept Christ through faith. All of us will be judged, but those who are saved will be saved when they accept Christ through faith. Will all those who say they believe in Christ be saved? NO. Look back the the verses watchman F posted, Mathew 7: 21-23.

The truth I am refering to is the truth that "we can't 100% sure about whether we are one of His Elect". True or not?! (Geez, you even know how to judge :crazy Don't judge or you shall be judged!)

You can only estimate your own salvation status at the moment by comparing your good works at the moment to what are said in the Bible.

Predestination is not hard to understand at all. Only God knows the end, true, but you can know if you are saved or not. If you seek Christ you will find him. Again check out Mathew 7 verses 7-8. You can have assurance that you are in that book.

You can't know in an absolute sense that you are saved unless you know that you won't leave God in the future of your life at least. True or Not?!

 

[Hawkins]

. However, it no means says that there is no pre-destination.

Pre- destination is not contextual. God does not determine who will be saved and not to be saved. If so no one is to be blamed for any kind of evil deeds.

Like I said, no one actually knows what pre-destination is. Yet all the names of those saved are in the Book of Life. True or Not?!

 

[Hawkins]

You lost me on that one.

Let me put it this way. If the Calvinists interpretation about what pre-destination could be is wrong. Does it mean that pre-destination doesn't exist? The answer is NO. No matter how Calvinists interpret what pre-destination could be, pre-destination by God's defination (not men's defination) still exists.

 

[Hawkins]

Let me put it another way.

Revelation 17:8
The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

Now someone is thought to be saved. He performs like a Christian in every aspects. He's baptized. Every men said that he's saved. Yet years later, he decides to leave the church, he even decides to change his belief to Islam (or whatever religion you consider him as unsaved). Anyway, he somehow turns out to be the unsaved.

1) Now is his name in the Book of Life? The answer is NO ( NO can be an answer anyway)
2) If his name is not in the Book of Life, how can you say that he's saved in the first place?!

sidenote:
I never said that "pre-destination means you won't have a choice", so don't assume that it's my POV. I only said that we don't know what pre-destination is.

 

[Danus]

Now someone is thought to be saved. He performs like a Christian in every aspects. He's baptized. Every men said that he's saved. Yet years later, he decides to leave the church, he even decides to change his belief to Islam (or whatever religion you consider him as unsaved). Anyway, he somehow turns out to be the unsaved.

This is the meat of the argument on this thread. Your view of salvation is that you have to perform in some manor to be saved. Good luck with your performance. If you think that you can preform your way into slvation by all your good works.....you'll never make it. You are saved by the grace of God through your faith in Jesus Christ, and you can know you are saved through that.

Salvation is not like a High School football team where you show up, try out and you make it or your cut based on your performance. If it was then no one is saved, because to be saved under that idea would mean that you would have to fullfill all of Gods law. you would have to be in perfect union with God just as Christ was. Show me one who is.

Your holding another view that seems to say God has a list of names that he put together with all the saved people. You are not even considering Christ and what was done on the cross.

 

[shad]

Like I said, no one actually knows what pre-destination is. Yet all the names of those saved are in the Book of Life. True or Not?!

I mis worded; I should have said that Calvin's pre-destination is wrong. Contextual pre-destination is that God already planned everything, that does not mean He predetermined who is saved and who is not.

 

[Mysteryman]

Like I said, no one actually knows what pre-destination is. Yet all the names of those saved are in the Book of Life. True or Not?!

I mis worded; I should have said that Calvin's pre-destination is wrong. Contextual pre-destination is that God already planned everything, that does not mean He predetermined who is saved and who is not.

Hi

Check out Ephesians 1:4 & 5

 

[shad]

Hi

Check out Ephesians 1:4 & 5

ok, thanks

 

[shad]

Check out Ephesians 1:4 & 5

I read it and it does not sound like it harmonizes with Jesus' words in the book of Revelation. I will take Jesus' simple explanation.

 

[mondar]

Check out Ephesians 1:4 & 5

I read it and it does not sound like it harmonizes with Jesus' words in the book of Revelation. I will take Jesus' simple explanation.

Shad, are you picking and choosing which biblical text you will believe?

Also, can you tell me exactly what text in the book of Revelation you might be referring to?

 

[shad]

Shad, are you picking and choosing which biblical text you will believe?

Some verses are contradictory to whole context. I go with what makes sense with the whole Bible and God and Jesus' characters. Besides, we really don't know exactly what they are saying.

Also, can you tell me exactly what text in the book of Revelation you might be referring to?

I will get back with this because I have to go.

 

[watchman F]

If you are asking about the scripture in Revelation that disproves OSAS that would be....
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Danus]

If you are asking about the scripture in Revelation that disproves OSAS that would be....
Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Another verse that does not have anything to do with OSAS. You have yet to address Mathew 7:21-23 as well.

 

[Danus]

Did you even read those verses if you can fall from the faith then you can loose your salvation. It is not rocket science. The bible is easy to understand. Simply reject the false teaching you have been indoctrinated into and accept God's word for what it says.

Ok, let's go thought scripture. I will let you toss in whatever scriptures you like and we can talk about them. All I ask is that we take one or two at a time, so that we have a straightforward discussion in detail. Lets look at 1 of the scriptures you quoted. Matthew 7: 21-23.

Also before we start, let me reiterate my position and theology I guess. I hold a reformist Protestant view of Imputed righteousness. I believe that I am a sinner by my very nature and that my salvation lies solely on the blood of Christ and my acceptance of that in faith and faith alone. Nothing I do will make a difference as far as me being righteous alone by any effort I may put forth.

So, I come to Christ as a sinner. I recognize my condition. I repent and I accept Christ; that Christs sacrifice was for my salvation as well as all of mankind. All we have to do is accept it in faith and once we do that we are saved. Once we are saved we can not loose that SALVATION. We may loose our way, we may stumble, we may fall ect...but we will not loose the very thing so many Christians question.....our salvation.

So you say that is not true. You say that is a false teaching and you have given Mathew 7: 21-23 to back up the idea that it's false. Let's look at it.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

First what is the context? Jesus is giving the sermon on the mnt. Specifically in Chp 7 Jesus starts by addressing judging others. He gives us a string of advice. He warns us about false profits and says we will know them by the fruit they bare.... then he says 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.....so what does this mean? It seems to mean that not everyone who claims to believe will in fact believe, or be real in their faith.
Further we see.....
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....This speaks of works. It's classic self righteousness....it's as if to say "did we not do good by our own efforts? I mean I called myself a Christian and I did all the things. I tried real hard!" 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' .....So are the evil doers the ones with faith? Or, the ones with said faith and works? If we get anything from this text Jesus is distinguishing between two types of Christians, if you will. Those who have faith in him for their salvation and those who have faith in themselves and their own efforts for their salvation.

So again, OSAS says that we have faith in Christ and Christ alone for our salvation and in that we are saved and we can not loose that. It has NOTHING to do with our efforts. So Mathew 7 21-23 backs up OSAS. It backs up imputed righteousness not infused righteousness. But you might say; what about the will of the father? What about doing Gods will?" yes, Gods will is that you have faith in him and not that of yourself. That's the will of God when you accept his gift of salvation. When you accept it. You can not do Gods will until you relinquish yourself in trade for faith in Jesus.

Keep in mind, that you are saying accepting Christ is not enough. You are saying that that is only part of it and that you have to ....I don;t know, be good, be righteous, walk the line, follow all the rules...do good things I guess? Your saying you have to perform after you accept.......What if your performance is substandard? I mean if you admit you are a sinner and repent aren't you already saying you can't preform? Isn't it Christ who gives you anything at all? and lastly, in order for Christ to work on you, must you not give up yourself? If you Give up yourself does that not require faith? Faith in Christ over yourself?................now these are rhetorical questions but you may answer if you like.

I think the answer is clear that faith in Christ over yourself says that your efforts to be a Christian are worthless to that of your faith. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....that's not it brother. That's not doing the will of God who loves you so much that he gave his only son for your salvation....not your efforts..or rules for your to follow, but freely paid for your salvation. You can not earn it. You can not do anything for it but accept it in faith and faith alone.........But, can you loose it? If you can.....How? if you can't accept Christ, nor are you accepted by Christ on your efforts.....how then can you loose Christ on your efforts if you have accepted him in faith? YOU CAN'T.

So, Mathew 7: 21-23 is saying that you are not saved by works. You will not be known by your efforts..and keeping your nose clean. 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

How you coming on my response watchman f?

 

[watchman F]

Did you even read those verses if you can fall from the faith then you can loose your salvation. It is not rocket science. The bible is easy to understand. Simply reject the false teaching you have been indoctrinated into and accept God's word for what it says.

Ok, let's go thought scripture. I will let you toss in whatever scriptures you like and we can talk about them. All I ask is that we take one or two at a time, so that we have a straightforward discussion in detail. Lets look at 1 of the scriptures you quoted. Matthew 7: 21-23.

Also before we start, let me reiterate my position and theology I guess. I hold a reformist Protestant view of Imputed righteousness. I believe that I am a sinner by my very nature and that my salvation lies solely on the blood of Christ and my acceptance of that in faith and faith alone. Nothing I do will make a difference as far as me being righteous alone by any effort I may put forth.

So, I come to Christ as a sinner. I recognize my condition. I repent and I accept Christ; that Christs sacrifice was for my salvation as well as all of mankind. All we have to do is accept it in faith and once we do that we are saved. Once we are saved we can not loose that SALVATION. We may loose our way, we may stumble, we may fall ect...but we will not loose the very thing so many Christians question.....our salvation.

So you say that is not true. You say that is a false teaching and you have given Mathew 7: 21-23 to back up the idea that it's false. Let's look at it.

Matthew 7:21-23 (New International Version)

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

First what is the context? Jesus is giving the sermon on the mnt. Specifically in Chp 7 Jesus starts by addressing judging others. He gives us a string of advice. He warns us about false profits and says we will know them by the fruit they bare.... then he says 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.....so what does this mean? It seems to mean that not everyone who claims to believe will in fact believe, or be real in their faith.
Further we see.....
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....This speaks of works. It's classic self righteousness....it's as if to say "did we not do good by our own efforts? I mean I called myself a Christian and I did all the things. I tried real hard!" 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' .....So are the evil doers the ones with faith? Or, the ones with said faith and works? If we get anything from this text Jesus is distinguishing between two types of Christians, if you will. Those who have faith in him for their salvation and those who have faith in themselves and their own efforts for their salvation.

So again, OSAS says that we have faith in Christ and Christ alone for our salvation and in that we are saved and we can not loose that. It has NOTHING to do with our efforts. So Mathew 7 21-23 backs up OSAS. It backs up imputed righteousness not infused righteousness. But you might say; what about the will of the father? What about doing Gods will?" yes, Gods will is that you have faith in him and not that of yourself. That's the will of God when you accept his gift of salvation. When you accept it. You can not do Gods will until you relinquish yourself in trade for faith in Jesus.

Keep in mind, that you are saying accepting Christ is not enough. You are saying that that is only part of it and that you have to ....I don;t know, be good, be righteous, walk the line, follow all the rules...do good things I guess? Your saying you have to perform after you accept.......What if your performance is substandard? I mean if you admit you are a sinner and repent aren't you already saying you can't preform? Isn't it Christ who gives you anything at all? and lastly, in order for Christ to work on you, must you not give up yourself? If you Give up yourself does that not require faith? Faith in Christ over yourself?................now these are rhetorical questions but you may answer if you like.

I think the answer is clear that faith in Christ over yourself says that your efforts to be a Christian are worthless to that of your faith. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'.....that's not it brother. That's not doing the will of God who loves you so much that he gave his only son for your salvation....not your efforts..or rules for your to follow, but freely paid for your salvation. You can not earn it. You can not do anything for it but accept it in faith and faith alone.........But, can you loose it? If you can.....How? if you can't accept Christ, nor are you accepted by Christ on your efforts.....how then can you loose Christ on your efforts if you have accepted him in faith? YOU CAN'T.

So, Mathew 7: 21-23 is saying that you are not saved by works. You will not be known by your efforts..and keeping your nose clean. 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

How you coming on my response watchman f?

Your response didn't even address any of the scripture I gave to disprove OSAS. Sooo, I felt no need to address your post.