Adam and Eve were created flawed.

[Deavonreye]

I'm proceeding, for argument sake, that the story of Adam and Eve was a literal event.

Adam and Eve were created, placed in a garden, and given freedom to eat of any tree, except for the tree that gives the knowledge of good and evil. If we are to take this story as it is written, Neither of them had knowledge of what WAS good or evil, or how one could be [because they hadn't the knowledge].

It has been said that the action of eating the fruit from the knowledge tree opened their eyes. . . . opened them to what they hadn't known before. The problem is, unless they were created with a flaw to "be disobedient", they couldn't have known TO be disobedient, because that would require a KNOWLEDGE they didn't have. If they already knew how to be evil, the "knowledge tree" was unecessary.

It is a "chicken or the egg" paradox. Without knowledge of how to be evil, there should be no inclination to be evil [outside of a purposeful flaw to be evil designed in]. If the inclination was already there, the tree is redundant.

 

[smaller]

I'm proceeding, for argument sake, that the story of Adam and Eve was a literal event.

Adam and Eve were created, placed in a garden, and given freedom to eat of any tree, except for the tree that gives the knowledge of good and evil. If we are to take this story as it is written, Neither of them had knowledge of what WAS good or evil, or how one could be [because they hadn't the knowledge].

It has been said that the action of eating the fruit from the knowledge tree opened their eyes. . . . opened them to what they hadn't known before. The problem is, unless they were created with a flaw to "be disobedient", they couldn't have known TO be disobedient, because that would require a KNOWLEDGE they didn't have. If they already knew how to be evil, the "knowledge tree" was unecessary.

It is a "chicken or the egg" paradox. Without knowledge of how to be evil, there should be no inclination to be evil [outside of a purposeful flaw to be evil designed in]. If the inclination was already there, the tree is redundant.

Your analysis is better than most believers DR.

The Law is for the lawless. Were they not lawless, there would have been no need for that LAW, 'do not eat.'

Clearly the spirit of disobedience was 'within' them both and shown LONG before the eating.

s

 

[stovebolts]

One can have knowledge without understanding.

It's a simple story that conveys a simple meaning. God gave a simple command, and mankind took things in their own understanding with disregard for instruction. Eve essentially wanted to be like God and we call that idolatry.

You see, as a child, I can know that if I touch a hot burner, it will bring about pain because Mom told me. This is only knowledge of pain, not the experience of pain. If I disregard instruction on the matter and touch the hot burner, then I'll understand the true pain that associated with the action and my eyes will be opened in many areas as the truth of the command, "Dont' touch that burner" ring in my ears, and throb in my hand...

You see, it is one thing to know that nuclear bombs could destroy the earth, and it is another thing to truly understand it until you experience it...

So you see, this isn't a case where God created Adam and Eve flawed, but rather it's a case were something was clearly told them for the purpose of their own good, yet being enticed by her own desires, she disobeyed and thus, experienced shame as her eyes became open at the realization of her actions.

So I beg the question, can one truly know shame without experiencing it, or does one, after experiencing shame begin to understand the implications of shame.

If I tell you not to murder somebody, does that give you the experience of murdering somebody, or just the knowledge of it?

Ohh... and what was it that they hadn't experience before that opened their eyes? Yeah... it's called disobedience. From there, they are removed from the tree of life and moved eastward... and the world as they knew it kept going east and when Cain killed his brother, I'm sure they experienced the results of evil present in their world as they lost a child, a son... from one of their own children.. and they understood what they previously only knew. Do you know anyone that's ever lost a child? Do you understand their grief, or do you only know of their grief? and what of Cain?... your other child? how do you deal with that?

This brings us back to the tree of life... had God let them continue to eat from that tree, they would have lived next to evil all the days of their life. So, was it a curse, or a blessing that they only endure on this earth a set amount of days? I call that grace personally.

 

[stovebolts]

Clearly the spirit of disobedience was 'within' them both and shown LONG before the eating.

s

James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

be careful my brother not to be misunderstood by babes that don't understand scripture...

 

[smaller]

James 1:12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him. 13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.

be careful my brother not to be misunderstood by babes that don't understand scripture...

God Himself BOUND ALL MANKIND with disobedience...for specific and DIVINE INTENT. (see Romans 11:32)

Adam and Eve were no exception:

1 Cor. 15:
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

When THE SEED dies, seeing it's FACTUAL PLANTING conditions, it then PRODUCES.

The PRODUCE of TRUTH does not lead us to DENY the facts of our current planting.

So, I might observe WHAT WAS THE CAUSE of DEATH within Adam?

Quite easy to SEE, once taken 'personally:'

Matthew 13:19
When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

I am quite sure that Adam wrestled with Gods conveyance of DEATH for DISOBEDIENCE, but that WAS the plan of God.

God had ZERO intentions of leaving His son, Adam...IN THE DUST.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Sinthesis]

I wouldn't call it a flaw because Adam and Eve were intentionally created 'good', as opposed to 'perfect'. What they had was a vulnerability which we call freewill. The desire to determine for themselves what was 'good' or 'evil' led to the Original Sin whereby they elevated their will above God's in disobediently taking the fruit. The resultant consequences condemned all to eternal separation from God. However Jesus has provided a way back, provided one surrender their freewill to God.

 

[smaller]

I wouldn't call it a flaw because Adam and Eve were intentionally created 'good', as opposed to 'perfect'. What they had was a vulnerability which we call freewill. The desire to determine for themselves what was 'good' or 'evil' led to the Original Sin whereby they elevated their will above God's in disobediently taking the fruit. The resultant consequences condemned all to eternal separation from God. However Jesus has provided a way back, provided one surrender their freewill to God.

Is this a picture of A FREE WILL?

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Is this a picture of YOUR FREE WILL prior to belief?

Ephesians 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

Those who claim BLINDED CAPTIVES as free may appear to me to have a reading comprehension problem and DO NOT PERCEIVE either the condition of the unbeliever OR themselves PRIOR under THAT SPIRIT.

When you have A DISOBEDIENT THOUGHT, remember who you were once SUBJECT TO.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Deavonreye]

Knowing and understanding are truly seperate. But the tree of "the knowledge of good and evil" wasn't one of "understanding", but OF "knowledge". So I still must say that they must have been created flawed, already knowing what the tree was purposed for. A predesposed "desire to do something other than what was told them" is a flaw.

 

[stovebolts]

Let's look at what they knew....

2:17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Wanna know the difference between good and evil? Yeah, just go on ahead and take a bite of the fruit on that tree... :nod Oh, and by the way, when you do, you'll die. Oh, what's death? Well, it's bad... trust me on this, you wouldn't understand.

3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.


She knew that if she ate of it, she would die. Once she ate of it, she experienced death.


It was after that she disobeyed that evil ran rampent and her knowledge of evil grew. Hey, don't do crack, it's bad for you ok?


Personally, I would rather just obey than to of had the knowledge...

 

[Deavonreye]

An interesting piece to this puzzle: If nothing physical actually died, before "the fall", would they even have an idea what "surely die" even meant? Did Satan know what would happen? Since the physical creation was new, would Satan know what it would mean to "die"? From his perspective, did Satan even lie?

“You will not certainly die, for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.â€

From Satan's persepctive, they were in the garden with "the Tree of Life".

 

[stovebolts]

You ask some good, healthy questions. I'm running short on time right now, and I'm not even sure if what I'm about to write is well thought out or not, but...

If your Dad tells you not to do crack because if you do, something bad will happen then you have a choice to make. You can either believe and trust your Dad which maintains your respect for his authority knowing he's looking out for your best interest, or you can give into your own temptations after your friends sway you and reason that either your the exception, or you simply know better than your Father in this matter. After all, you've reasoned it out and it doesn't add up to what you're father's said.

So, you try it... What's died? Well, where you may have once looked up to your father, now you've placed yourself above his guidance. What's died is your respect, trust and guidance from your father. You can't go back and undo what you've done, even if you feel shame. What's done is done and can't be undone.

The next question is, what will you do with your shame? Will you continue to justify what you've done, or will you admit you did wrong and make it right?

Did you notice what Adam and Eve did after they understood? They hid. Have you ever noticed that if you do something against somebody, or even if you do something against another person... you have a way of avoiding that person, or they avoid you? We see this in people who gossip all the time about other people, because when we gossip, we're doing something wrong against another person... It's about relationships, and that's part of what's died, which is why they hid.

As far as what Satan knew, yes I believe he knew what would happen. Misery loves company...

 

[stovebolts]

From his perspective, did Satan even lie?

I don't think so.... After all, in Eve's mind, she was "like God"... That's where we get the idolatry from.

It's all about perspective...

 

[Deavonreye]

Stovebolts, I understand the concept you speak on here. I've heard similar.

We are made to be this way. There isn't anything wrong with our curiosity, but only when we act upon it. But it IS the way we were made. That's why they were created with a flaw.

Let's say that a dad tells his young child to NOT touch a hot stove. They first have to have the knowledge OF "touching the stove" being the same as "being disobedient". That's the knowledge. If Adam and Eve already knew that something was evil [being disobedient by eating a forbidden fruit], the tree would hold no value.

If they had no clue what "being disobedient" meant [if they hadn't that knowledge], it would be the same as a baby who doesn't know how to speak or understand english, touching a hot stove after being told not to. The idea of "being disobedient" wouldn't have been within their ability to grasp. In this case, a piece of fruit that gives the knowledge of what it means TO "be disobedient" would then be relevant. But in this scenario, they would have been punished for not knowing what it actually meant to "be disobedient" until after committing the act.

That's why I state that it is a "chicken and the egg" paradox.

 

[smaller]

An interesting piece to this puzzle: If nothing physical actually died, before "the fall", would they even have an idea what "surely die" even meant? Did Satan know what would happen? Since the physical creation was new, would Satan know what it would mean to "die"? From his perspective, did Satan even lie?

“You will not certainly die, for God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.â€

From Satan's persepctive, they were in the garden with "the Tree of Life".

You may find some similar perspectives to your own here:

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/what-if-adam-had-not-sinned-28659/index8.html#post457687

Post #106

and here

http://www.christianforums.net/f17/what-if-adam-had-not-sinned-28659/index9.html

Post #134

enjoy!

s

 

[Lloyd]

Deavon,

This is the second thread of yours I've read in the past few days. You make some interesting points, but can I ask what your motive is? I think you said you were a Christian, and now you're not, so are your questions aimed to solidify your viewpoint of no longer being a Christian, or to answer questions which you're genuinely looking for an answer for?

The bottom line is, we'll never be able to answer every question someone has, and we'll never fully understand everything that's written in the Bible. One passage read by 5 different people would probably yield 5 different perceptions. I always think of some of the questions the Pharisee's posed to Jesus, and as I'm reading them, I can't find the answer, and then I read Jesus' response and I realise just how glorious and complete God is, and just how perfect the answer always is. You see, you may never find the answers you're looking for by asking man, but asking God with a genuine heart will provide a far better path than a detailed explanation wrote on a page.

How lacking in faith are we that we demand an answer from God for everything we don't understand? As if we deserve an answer? As if the reflection of our life demands an answer from God? Jesus provided the path for us to follow, the role model for our lives, yet we'll squabble over matters we don't fully understand instead of actually trying to live as Jesus did. Is understanding why Eve ate the apple more important than saving your brother? Is having a million questions answered to satisfy yourself and your own curiosity more important than praising God and seeking what he wants? I would live a life you were called to live to the best of your being, and the answers you're looking for will come when God decides.

Have faith brother, it's a difficult path, but walk it and one day everything will make sense.

Take care.

All praise to God, through his Son, Jesus Christ.

Lloyd.

 

[turnorburn]

I think the tittle of this thread stinks!

 

[Deavonreye]

Lloyd, Stovebolts asked me to post some of my questions so he could address them, so I am. Why I ask them is simply because I personally believe that questions must be addressed. These OT accounts are suppose to point to the character of god, . . . and if questions arrise [for me], yet I ignore them, can I truly know for sure that what I'm seeking for IS what I could agree with?

 

[Deavonreye]

I think the title of this thread stinks!

I'm sorry if the title offends you. However, I am posting my thoughts and they should not be taken by anyone as a personal attack.

From the story of Adam, Eve, and Satan, it always intrigued me that Eve would be so willing to believe the words of a created thing over the actual god that created it. The story doesn't really make sense, if you look at it logically. It would have seemed wise FOR Adam and Eve to have the knowledge of what was "good or evil", then perhaps Eve wouldn't have been so easily fooled by a possessed snake type creature. The scenario plays out as if Adam and Eve were flawed with gullibility.

Eve: "No way, we cannot eat it because god said not to!"
Satan: "Nah uh!"
Eve: "Okay then!"

 

[ProphetMark]

Is understanding why Eve ate the apple more important than saving your brother?

apple?

 

[stovebolts]

From his perspective, did Satan even lie?

I don't think so.... After all, in Eve's mind, she was "like God"... That's where we get the idolatry from.

It's all about perspective...

Deavonreye,
What I was hoping you would catch, is that it's all about perspective. I would suggest that the paradox lies only in perception, and not in truth. Did you know that one could be telling the truth, yet still be in the lie? Think about this and ponder it as I try to address you other concerns.

We are made to be this way. There isn't anything wrong with our curiosity, but only when we act upon it. But it IS the way we were made. That's why they were created with a flaw.

We are not talking about curiosity here Deavonreye, and I think that's important to note. We're talking about the later half of verse 6 which says, "and also desirable for gaining wisdom". You see, God said don't do that or you'll get hurt and eve said to herself, "I know better than God".

Just to clear something up though, there is nothing wrong with acting on your curiosity. I posted some wisdom from James 1:12-15 earlier which speaks to what we're talking about with Adam and Eve. Sorry to nit pick over words, but words have meanings, and we need to be clear to what we're addressing. Curiosity isn't in this equation.

Let's say that a dad tells his young child to NOT touch a hot stove. They first have to have the knowledge OF "touching the stove" being the same as "being disobedient". That's the knowledge. If Adam and Eve already knew that something was evil [being disobedient by eating a forbidden fruit], the tree would hold no value.

I want you to sit back and really digest what you've just said... Hear me out would ya?

I think you missed the point here. Really, this isn't as complicated as you're making it.

Dad didn't just tell them not to touch the stove, he told them that if they touched the stove, they would die. Honestly, I can't believe I'm even arguing this... Adam and eve knew what it was to touch trees and everything else in the garden as they got their food from the various plants and trees including the tree of life. Honestly, they knew what touching a tree was... What they were told, was not to touch a particular tree... yeah, that one right over there. See it? yeah, don't touch that one.

Touching the tree in itself was not evil, it was simply disobedient. How was it disobedient? Because they did something they were told not to do which they understood and acknowledged as something they were not to do.. Trust me, I have kids... it's not as complex as you're making it. Kids know when they do something that they are not supposed to do but what they learn, is to justify why they are doing it.

But anyway, by disobedience their eyes would be opened to good and evil. You see, as long as they trusted God, their innocence remained and everything stayed in harmony, much like it is in my house when my children obey.

Like the serpent though, don't get hung up on the "disobedience", but rather, look at what drove the disobedience. It wasn't specifically the act, but what drove the act and what drove the act was when Eve thought of herself as equal with God, or even greater than God because remember, this was all about reasoning in her own mind that it was ok to eat, coupled with her desire for wisdom.

If Eve could reason this, then we know that we're not talking about a baby who doesn't know how to speak or understand english...