Bible Study Adam, Eve and the Serpent

[Asyncritus]

Imagination is essential to any kind of good Bible study. The following is an imaginative reconstruction of the Transgression in Eden, and an attempt to figure out what the place was like.

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Far too many people regard the garden of Eden Story as a fairy tale. But Jesus didn’t, and that alone should settle the question for anyone who calls him or herself a disciple of His. Paul the Apostle certainly regarded the story as truth, and the great Book of Revelation, despite its complexities does so too. Far be it, then, for us, humble students of His Word, to depart from that position. It just isn’t good enough.

I have carefully studied the early chapters of Genesis over many years, and here are my conclusions. You will see that it is earth-shakingly different to the usual versions, if only for one reason: it lays the blame for the whole disaster where it belongs, at Adam’s door. The New Testament does just this, and we take that very carefully into account.

The Temptation in Eden

Coming as it does, at the beginning of all things, the temptation of Adam and Eve raises some extremely important questions, whose answers are all readily available in the New Testament. Believing as I do, that all Scripture is infallibly inspired by God, I make the assumption that comments in the NT on passages in the Old are correct, and valuable beyond price to our understanding of things. If we are inattentive to what it says, we are immeasurably the losers.

The first problem arises when we consider Romans 5, where remarkably, no fewer than 10 times, repeat, 10 times, the statement is made and extended that ‘by one man sin entered the world, and death by sin’.

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

As we all know, Eve sinned first, by eating of the Tree, so how could Adam be said - no, flatly asserted - to be, the one by whom sin entered into the world? The common or garden explanation is that he ate of the fruit because he loved his wife, and was prepared to die with her. That he really hated her will be shown in what follows here.

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

THE SERPENT WAS IN THE GARDEN



The second problem arises from an observation to which no one seems to attach any importance at all. That observation is simply this: the serpent was in the Garden.

Doesn’t seem like much – until we ask, a. and b. How did it get in there? What was it doing in there?

The tasks given to Adam were two-fold.

“And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.†(Ge 2:15-16 AV)

First, he is to dress it: i.e. act as a gardener: weed, prune the trees, make sure the irrigation channels were open, pick up dead fruit, leaves etc etc. When we consider the fact that the Garden was probably the size of Jerusalem, and probably on the same site, you begin to see the size of this task.

Second, and very oddly, he is to ‘keep it’: the Hebrew is used of ‘to act as a watchman.’ Watchman? Against what? Well, if a herd of elephants decided to take a canter through the Garden, there wouldn’t be very much garden left, so he had to keep unwanted beasts out. Makes the task even bigger. While he was dressing the garden, he couldn’t be keeping it, and vice versa. So the Lord God made Eve, an help meet for him – he needed the assistance.

Therefore, I infer that Adam had the power to include, or exclude, any animals he saw fit. For example, I imagine that if he had to mow a lawn, say, he would whistle up a herd of goats or whatever to eat the grass at the required spot. Probably telepathy or something like it.

The second inference is an ugly one. The serpent was in the Garden because of one of these three things – no other possibilities occur to me.
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a. Adam wanted it in and/or
b. Adam invited it or ordered it in and/or
c. Adam, when it was in, didn’t see fit to evict it.

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[Asyncritus]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

[FONT=&quot]WHY WAS THE SERPENT IN THE GARDEN?

The concept that God placed it there is abhorrent to me. Would you, having just planted up the most beautiful Garden conceivable, put a great serpent, which may or may not have been a dangerous animal, in the middle of if? Certainly not – and absolutely not in order to tempt them. That is a ghastly idea, and Adam would certainly have picked up on it when he had to answer for his misdemeanour. “The serpent you put in here to tempt me, tempted me. So why are you blaming me?â€

Making the reasonable assumption that Adam invited or ordered it in, we now inquire “Why did he do so?â€
[/FONT] We are faced with the extraordinary picture now, of the serpent on the Tree. How comes it that it is on/by this most special Tree of all? (I get the impression that it was on the Tree in all this incident.) The answer comes from the observation that the animal, for so it was, could talk. No serpent before or since has ever been able to do so: and this leads me to the supposition that something extraordinary had happened to this particular beast. But what? I suggest that it had eaten of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Only this supposition explains all the facts. Consider:

1 The animal could talk, and is more subtil (smart, wise) than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. How did this happen? Serpents aren’t discernibly smarter than other animals nowadays. Eating of the Tree explains this easily enough. The fruit clearly had unusual properties, as witness the effect on Adam and Eve, but since serpent physiologies were different, the effects were different too.

2 “When the woman saw that the tree was pleasant to the eyes, and good for food, and to be desired to make one wise, she took…†This is a very peculiar part of the whole transaction. So far she had been under the impression that if she ate of the Tree, or even touched it, she would die: and those instructions, she said, were from God Himself. If that is the case then what made her change her mind? Feminine curiosity? Inquisitiveness? Surely not. Not when her life might be at stake.

Look at it like this: Professor Linus Pauling, twice a Nobel-Prize winning laureate, says to you, a green undergraduate in his laboratory… “If you drink from that bottle, you will certainly die. Don’t do it!!!†Tell me, what could possibly convince you to drink from that bottle? He has never been wrong yet, so what would make you drink of that? I can hardly think of any circumstance save one that would make me do so.

Suppose I saw another student drink of it, and not only did he not die, but he obtained superpowers (such as the ability to fly) that I wanted, I would do so then. I think that is a fair assumption. Therefore I suggest that if Eve saw that the serpent was eating of the fruit, and not only surviving, but becoming able to talk, and be subtil, then there was a serious possibility that she would do it – and she did.

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

ADAM THE MURDERER?

Adam was standing right there: (“..she gave to her husband who was with her (NIV) and he did eat…â€). Why did he not, on hearing all this, pick up a stick or something, and break the serpent’s back with it – or at least chase it out of the garden? And why did he not say to Eve, “…you just touch that tree Eve, and I promise you won’t sit down for a month!!!†?

[FONT=&quot]He did neither of these things. Why not? A further indication that he was there lies in the serpent’s statement : “…ye shall not surely die†which is perfectly natural if it was talking to both of them, but less so if it wasn’t. Nor is it unreasonable to suppose that since Adam was the Keeper of the Garden, he would have kept a special eye on this most special of all Trees.

The whole thing makes very little sense until the New Testament sheds light on the incident, but it in a quite unexpected way.

The apostle makes a gigantic contrast between the Lord Jesus’ actions, and Adam’s in Philippians 2. The relevant words are: “Who being in the form of God (as Adam was in God’s image and likeness) thought equality with God (RV) (Ye shall be as gods..) not a thing to be grasped (RVm)…â€

This passage shows clearly that it was equality with God that was being ‘snatched’ here. That was the real offence. It wasn’t the beauty of the tree or its fruit: there were plenty of other trees that were ‘pleasant to the eyes’ – in fact, all of them in the Garden were. It wasn’t the fact that it was ‘good for food’: they had enough of that elsewhere. It was the third element that was important: to be equal with God. None of the other trees could confer that one thing. And that was the thing that Adam snatched at.

The second comment by the apostle on the incident is in 1 Timothy, where he states, again unequivocally, that “Adam was not deceived.†In other words, what he did, he did with malice aforethought. He disobeyed God wilfully. It will not do to say it was because of his love for Eve that he did this: the proper course of action would have been to do as the Lord Jesus did: to say to God “Lord, she has sinned. Slay me instead.†Adam didn’t – not because he wasn’t bright enough to figure that one out, but for another, very dangerous reason.

It is appropriate to point out here that there is a Law of Physics which states the every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The magnitude of the offence in God’s eyes, is demonstrated by the magnitude of the consequences. The Law of Moses is full of examples of this.

The consequences of that sin, in terms of pain and suffering and death have been incalculable. Therefore, this was the greatest sin ever committed in the history of mankind. Hitler, Mussolini, Attila, Saddam Hussain were all kindergarten kids by comparison. Hitler managed to murder six million Jews. Adam killed the whole world.

By this, we can assess the magnitude and nature of that sin.

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[Asyncritus]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

CAN EATING A FRUIT BE WORTHY OF DEATH - FOR A ZILLION PEOPLE?



How can eating the fruit of a tree possibly be regarded by a just God as sufficiently heinous to warrant the consequences that have flowed from there? If someone climbed over the fence at night and stole your prize grapes or something, would you, as a judge passing sentence, have him, his wife and every last one of his children and grandchildren executed? For the next n generations? No, there has got to be more here than meets the eye. Just why did God regard this act as the most appalling in the history of the world?

The key was given above. It was because Adam grasped/snatched at equality with God. But how, and just as important, why?

The Answer

The first thing that Adam heard, on opening his eyes for the first time was this:
“ And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.†(Ge 1:28 AV)

Adam, in other words, was to be the Lord of the planet, filling it with his descendants, subduing it to his will, having dominion over all life on the planet. He was ‘a little lower than the angels’ so the height of his exaltation was not inconsiderable. And yet, here he was in this place, pulling weeds, picking up dead leaves and fruit and thoroughly menial it all was too. A gardener. And a man of such intellect too! Naming all the animals that were brought to him require taxonomic abilities and vocabulary of a very high order indeed.

He wanted to be like God – the Lord of all creation. He wanted the fulfilment of that prophecy, spoken at his ‘birth’ to be fulfilled NOW. His pride got hold of him, and his attitude stank. Listen to this, spoken after the creation of Eve:

“ And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.†(Ge 2:23 AV)

Do you hear a word of thankfulness to God for His consideration for him? Is there a prayer of rejoicing there? Not a vestige. He had walked and talked with angels, so why be beholden to them? It was his body that that taken the knock, not theirs. She had come from him, and he barely avoids taking the total credit for her creation. Extraordinary ingratitude is a fair summary here, I think, verging on the insolent.

So just how was he going to fulfil that prophecy and become the Lord of all creation? Certainly not by pulling weeds!



There was only one thing for it – God had said, don’t eat of that tree. Why not? he asked himself. Why, because if he ate of it, he would become like God Himself, and God didn’t want that now, did He? Hmmmmm. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. God must know good and evil – and He wants to keep it from me. Hmmmm. Let me try it.

There was a problem.

 

[Asyncritus]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

THE PROBLEM



God said, that if I eat of the Tree, I will surely die. He’s never wrong. So what do I do? Why, let’s conduct a little experiment. A little animal experiment. Let’s see what happens to a serpent. He calls up the serpent, and makes it eat of the Tree.

Lo and behold, the experiment worked. It didn’t die, and better still, it gained the power of speech.

I think, you see, that there is a very large grain of truth in these speculations. I think that Adam now spoke to the serpent on one or two occasions, and communicated all of his thought processes out loud to the animal, which soaks it up and later regurgitates the material.

Have you ever noticed that the first words to Eve are ‘Yea, hath God said…?’ This is not the start of a conversation, it is the continuation of one, and we are not told with whom. Eve sounds totally surprised by the question and gives the absolutely correct answer – because it was the only one she knew. She shows no surprise at the fact that the serpent is there on the Tree: which indicates that it had been there before. What she didn’t know was where it was all going, and that she herself was in extreme danger.

As I said before, as far as she knew, and as far as Adam knew, this was a lethal fruit. Adam was standing right there ‘with her’ as I have pointed out – and he doesn’t say a word to stop her. This is impossible to understand, except on the supposition that he had passed the animal experiment stage, and now needed a human subject. Which human subject? Not he himself. Oh no. That was too dangerous. So who then? Eve, of course. If she died, so what? The Tree of Life was standing right there. That might save her. And in any case, he had other ribs.

In case you think this is too far fetched, listen to what the Lord said: “Ye are of your father the devil. He was a murderer from the beginning…â€



I used to think that He was talking about Cain, but in the light of the foregoing, it is pretty obvious that He was talking about Adam. Adam was willing to let Eve administer that poison to herself, and say nothing.



Adam had let the serpent in. Adam had filled it full of guff. And now Adam was willing to let her die – all in his pursuit of equality with God. He didn’t love her – he hated her. He was a murderer, right from the beginning – and he ended by successfully murdering the world.
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Isn’t it interesting, too, that he points to Adam as their father, and names him as ‘the devil’ – and so significantly in this context, the ‘false accuser’ – of God!!!

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[Asyncritus]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

The Serpent’s speech

When we analyse what the serpent said, we have to be amazed that we can analyse it. This is no garbled reptilian garbage. It is completely human. It is a reasoned argument of sorts, and contains some amazing statements: statements which could not possibly have originated in a reptilian brain.

“Yea, hath God said…†How did it know that God had said anything? Answer: somebody told it so. What did a serpent know about God and what He had said – unless somebody had told it so? So who could that be?

“And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?†(Ge 3:1 AV) No says, Eve, that is wrong. We can eat of every tree of the garden – except one. And we mustn’t even touch it, or we’ll die.



Eve is nearly perfectly correct, so far.

“ And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:†(Ge 3:4 AV)

This is the world’s first lie. It cannot have originated in a reptile’s brain – therefore it originated elsewhere. I see this as part of Adam’s rationalisation, supposition and suspicion which came out of this beast’s mouth. The world’s first lie was the world’s first sin – so the problem deepens. The New Testament insists: it wasn’t Eve, nor was it the serpent, by whom sin entered the world. It was by Adam – therefore Adam was the father of that lie.

Jesus again: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.†(Joh 8:44 AV)

Now hear these following words, and judge whether these aren’t human reasonings. Aren’t they just what you would expect Adam to think if he was hell bent on seizing equality with God?

“ For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.†(Ge 3:5 AV)

The lie develops further now, into an accusation that God was jealous of their knowing good and evil – because they would become as gods. The unsaid words are : “and He doesn’t want that now, does He? So He, God, has told you a lieâ€
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No serpent could invent something like that. How could it possibly know – because it came true – that their eyes would be opened? Most important of all, how could it possibly construct the thought that: ‘ye shall be as God (Elohim = God)’? That is human thinking, a rebellious human mind grinding away on the few facts at its disposal.

So Eve fell for it. She could hardly fail to do so – the serpent’s words were plausible enough. The fruit’s effects on the serpent were there for anyone to see. And most important of all, since Adam, her High Priest, her Lord, her Instructor, had said nothing to the contrary, it must be all right. He must have approved of what the serpent said. He did, but not for the reason she thought he did. She took his silence to mean approval – not realising the deadly danger that lay ahead.


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[Asyncritus]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.



BY ONE MAN SIN ENTERED THE WORLD

So by one man sin entered the world, and the physical darkness that had lain on the face of the deep was replaced by the darkness and the shadow of death. Only the Light of the World could dispel it – and John 1, although it uses the language of creation, is not talking about Genesis 1 at all.

As we now know, God imputes a sin to us when we decide irrevocably to transgress. (“Whose looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery already with her in his heart”).

Therefore Adam sinned before Eve ate of the Tree, because he had decided irrevocably that he was going to do this evil thing before Eve even thought of eating the fruit. So Romans is correct: by one MAN sin entered the world, and death by sin.

This is a radical view of the events in Eden, but it does have the great virtue of placing the blame right where it belongs – at Adam’s door. Yes, there is speculation here, but it is reverent speculation, only indulged in a serious effort to make sense of the difficulties I have highlighted.

So they left the Garden – but not for the last time. The cherubim were placed at the gate (yes, the Garden had a gate), to keep the Way of the Tree of Life. They were now the watchmen: but watchmen have 2 functions. First to keep undesirables out, and second, to allow desirables in. This leads me to suggest that they were permitted to return on one day of the year – that Great Day which became known as the Day of Atonement – that Day when the Almighty had wept because of the ruin of His handiwork, and when He had offered the First Sacrifice in the history of the world. But that’s another long story.

“ Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” (Php 2:4-11 AV)


Asyncritus

Note to mod: this is the last in the short series. I don't know why it's here at the start!

 

[Elijah674]

Re: Why Adam and Eve sinned before eating the fruit.

The Serpent’s speech

When we analyse what the serpent said, we have to be amazed that we can analyse it. This is no garbled reptilian garbage. It is completely human. It is a reasoned argument of sorts, and contains some amazing statements: statements which could not possibly have originated in a reptilian brain.

“Yea, hath God said…†How did it know that God had said anything? Answer: somebody told it so. What did a serpent know about God and what He had said – unless somebody had told it so? So who could that be?

“And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?†(Ge 3:1 AV) No says, Eve, that is wrong. We can eat of every tree of the garden – except one. And we mustn’t even touch it, or we’ll die.

Eve is nearly perfectly correct, so far.

“ And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:†(Ge 3:4 AV)

This is the world’s first lie. It cannot have originated in a reptile’s brain – therefore it originated elsewhere. I see this as part of Adam’s rationalisation, supposition and suspicion which came out of this beast’s mouth. The world’s first lie was the world’s first sin – so the problem deepens. The New Testament insists: it wasn’t Eve, nor was it the serpent, by whom sin entered the world. It was by Adam – therefore Adam was the father of that lie.

Jesus again: “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.†(Joh 8:44 AV)

Now hear these following words, and judge whether these aren’t human reasonings. Aren’t they just what you would expect Adam to think if he was hell bent on seizing equality with God?

“ For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.†(Ge 3:5 AV)

The lie develops further now, into an accusation that God was jealous of their knowing good and evil – because they would become as gods. The unsaid words are : “and He doesn’t want that now, does He? So He, God, has told you a lieâ€

[FONT=&quot]No serpent could invent something like that. How could it possibly know – because it came true – that their eyes would be opened? Most important of all, how could it possibly construct the thought that: ‘ye shall be as God (Elohim = God)’? That is human thinking, a rebellious human mind grinding away on the few facts at its disposal.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]So Eve fell for it. She could hardly fail to do so – the serpent’s words were plausible enough. The fruit’s effects on the serpent were there for anyone to see. And most important of all, since Adam, her High Priest, her Lord, her Instructor, had said nothing to the contrary, it must be all right. He must have approved of what the serpent said. He did, but not for the reason she thought he did. She took his silence to mean approval – not realising the deadly danger that lay ahead. [/FONT]

OK: Where are the Christians at that do not eat this stuff??? Is my pal Doc out on Parole yet??? This stuff grows like after Cain killed the Son of God Able, and Seth did not come on the scene for 120 yrs.! Satan & his chum (or first fullfledged convert) had NO competion per/say. On came the need of the Floods execution unless one believed God instead of satan. And most still teach that God lied & satan told the truth!!

And Cains new DESIRE was that of ADAM??? (instead of the devil) See Gen. 4:7! God allowed satan a 120 year headstart for his earthly rebellion with Cain as his anti/Christ..

FORUM: This Garbage is comming out of satan (Judes) woodwork like termites! The first liar was Adam instead of the serpent satan, is plain FOOLISHNESS!

--Elijah

 

[Asyncritus]

OK, friend Elijah.

We agree that lying is sin, right? Right.

The serpent said that God was a liar didn't he? (Ye shall not surely die -as God said).

Therefore the serpent was the first sinner, right? Right.

No, wrong.

'By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin'.

Explain that, if you please.

Thanks.

Signed: The termite

 

[Sparkey]

You make much of the fact that a serpent spoke. If I understand you correctly the conclusion you come to about Adam is unavoidable. May I ask how your theory adapts to a donkey who speaks?

... "What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?"

And Balaam said unto the ass, "Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee."

That aside, let me quickly go on to say that I do appreciate much of what you say here. It was my thought that Adam desired God's gift more than God Himself and that was the sin he harbored. Your point, that Adam did not have the mind of Christ and considered himself too highly, worthy of grasping at equality with God, is worthy of prayerful consideration. Thank you.

...
The relevant words are: “Who being in the form of God (as Adam was in God’s image and likeness) thought equality with God (RV) (Ye shall be as gods..) not a thing to be grasped (RVm)…”

This passage shows clearly that it was equality with God that was being ‘snatched’ here. That was the real offence.
...

 

[Elijah674]

OK, friend Elijah.

We agree that lying is sin, right? Right.

The serpent said that God was a liar didn't he? (Ye shall not surely die -as God said).

Therefore the serpent was the first sinner, right? Right.

No, wrong.

'By one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin'.

Explain that, if you please.

Thanks.

Signed: The termite

No thanks! Titus 3:9-11 does that!:waving

 

[Ranger]

If you were to view it from the perspective of a metaphor then Adam would be a single man yes, and also a "Son of God". The Garden of Eden, the Garden of Eden on a stretch of land.The apple would represent that desire for fellowship and expression of love on earth, in Adam. His desire upheld and fulfilled by the separation of the sexes-Eve. The "rib" would represent that negative (not bad, just opposite of positive) energy as he was closer to a spiritual form with flesh, rather than flesh with spirit. What followed next was the inevitable course of events (you will surely die).

The snake is introduced to the woman and tempted her to "eat the fruit". The snake may be seen as the source of desire for the fruit (fellowship and expression of love) introduced in her plus recognition of "her" position in the scheme of things. I would think she was a carbon copy of Adam, only "opposite". Adam and Eve then partake in satisfying (indulging in) their desire (the fruit). They eat the fruit.

2 [Censored] 2

This wasn't a problem, but as promised, things took a turn. I think there is a reason Paul put so much emphasis on discipline. He knew something.

 

[Asyncritus]

No thanks! Titus 3:9-11 does that!:waving

No, I thought you wouldn't.

Is this what you were talking about?

9 ¶ But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Curious.

You have, of course, noticed that the 'foolish questions, genealogies and strivings' are about THE LAW OF MOSES.

This question is not about the law of Moses at all, but about how sin entered the world and death by sin.

Now Paul's answer is: BY ONE MAN.

Yours seems to be: by something/ someone else.

Now justify your answer intelligently instead of wielding the great sword and the big axe.

 

[Asyncritus]

You make much of the fact that a serpent spoke. If I understand you correctly the conclusion you come to about Adam is unavoidable. May I ask how your theory adapts to a donkey who speaks?

The donkey's speech is powered by the angel of God, seeking to deflect Balaam from going to do evil. He is opposing the doing of evil.

Curiously, the angel of the Lord stands in the way, as the text says:

22 ¶ And God’s anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

The Hebrew word there for 'adversary' is, guess what?

07854 ןטשׂ satan saw-tawn’

from 07853, Greek 4566 σαταν; n m; {See TWOT on 2252 @@ "2252a"}

AV-Satan 19, adversary 7, withstand 1; 27

1) adversary, one who withstands
1a) adversary (in general-personal or national)
2) superhuman adversary
2a) Satan (as noun pr)

Which is remarkable, to say the least. Here is a 'satan' making, or trying to make, someone do right! (What doest thou here with that, Elijah?).

I have problems with the idea that God gave the serpent the power of speech in order to tempt them. God does not tempt any man to do evil, and that is precisely what the serpent is doing.

That aside, let me quickly go on to say that I do appreciate much of what you say here. It was my thought that Adam desired God's gift more than God Himself and that was the sin he harbored. Your point, that Adam did not have the mind of Christ and considered himself too highly, worthy of grasping at equality with God, is worthy of prayerful consideration. Thank you.

Thank you for your kind words here.

 

[Sparkey]

The donkey's speech is powered by the angel of God, seeking to deflect Balaam from going to do evil. He is opposing the doing of evil.

...

I have problems with the idea that God gave the serpent the power of speech in order to tempt them. God does not tempt any man to do evil, and that is precisely what the serpent is doing.


Thank you for your kind words here.

Agreed. God does not tempt nor can He be tempted. Your conclusion that man MUST have been the agent then has not yet been established to sufficient degree. Shall we not consider other relevant Scripture?

• And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou [art] cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
  
  [*]And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. [Genesis 3:14-15 KJV]
  
  [*]In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that [is] in the sea. [Isaiah 27:1 KJV]
  
  [*]Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? [Matthew 7:10 KJV]
  
  [*]But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. [2 Corinthians 11:3 KJV]
  
  [*]And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. [Revelation 12:9 KJV]
  
  [*]And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, [Revelation 20:2 KJV]

​

There are other Scriptures that could be mentioned that describe the Mercy Seat, Lucifer, Satan, The Fall from Heaven, Satan being cast down (in our future). Taken together they form an image describing a being more powerful than any other creature. I am reminded of a passage in Job that basically said, "Touch my servant (Leviathan), remember the battle and don't do it again..." (lol - paraphrase here, I should fetch it for accuracy sake):

• Lay thine hand upon him, remember the battle, do no more. ... He beholdeth all high [things]: he [is] a king over all the children of pride. [Job 41:8, 34 KJV]

I can not speak beyond my understanding. We know that Jesus became lower than the angels and dwelt in flesh. I am flesh and can only know what is shown to me by the Teacher, The Holy Spirit. It is my tendency to distrust theories (which may or may not be true) but my best thought is to be patient and wait until all things are revealed since I was not there and do not actually know what happened in the Garden before the fall of man, and further, my entire experience (in this world) is comprised of seeing nature after sin and death were established.

Thank you again for sharing your insight.

~Sparrow

 

[handy]

Interesting study.


But, I have to admit, I cannot agree with you that Adam had this whole scenario planned out, for the express purpose to become like God, using Eve as some kind of royal "taster" (so if she dropped dead, he'd go onto plan b).

God placed Adam in the Garden, yes, and told Adam to keep it. But, it doesn't necessarily follow that the only reason why the serpent was in the garden was because Adam wanted it in there. We must understand that the serpent was something quite different than a snake. It was indeed Satan and Satan was there to lie to Adam and Eve and tempt them. Being Satan, the serpent would have the power of speech.

Satan was already doomed in his own sin, when he was cast out of heaven. However, Satan's temptation of Adam and Eve would not have brought sin into the world, as temptation and sin are two different things. Jesus, Himself was tempted, yet did not sin.

My approach to the Scriptures is to not add anything to the text. Keep it simple, and always let Scripture interpret Scriptures. Sin did come into the world through Adam, for the simple reason that Eve was deceived whereas Adam was not deceived and chose to disobey God. The story is straightforward enough.

I do appreciate though that you do recognize that Eve wasn't the person who brought sin into this world. Eve has gotten a pretty bad rap over the millenniums.

 

[Asyncritus]

Interesting study.


But, I have to admit, I cannot agree with you that Adam had this whole scenario planned out, for the express purpose to become like God, using Eve as some kind of royal "taster" (so if she dropped dead, he'd go onto plan b).

As long as you don't get too far away from the fact that the whole episode was intended 'snatch at equality with God' (as Philippians 2 states very clearly. you can't go too far wrong.

Strange that you should say the following:

We must understand that the serpent was something quite different than a snake. It was indeed Satan and Satan was there to lie to Adam and Eve and tempt them. Being Satan, the serpent would have the power of speech.

What scriptural justification can you bring forward from Gen 3 to support this?

Don't you think that if 'satan' is at the back of this, then it is pretty unfair of God to curse the serpent, Eve and then Adam as well?

And then say, in Rom 5, that it is 'by ONE MAN that sin entered the world, and death by sin'?

Satan was already doomed in his own sin, when he was cast out of heaven. However, Satan's temptation of Adam and Eve would not have brought sin into the world, as temptation and sin are two different things.

Their temptation wouldn't.Their doing the evil deed is sin though, isn't it?

My approach to the Scriptures is to not add anything to the text. Keep it simple, and always let Scripture interpret Scriptures. Sin did come into the world through Adam, for the simple reason that Eve was deceived whereas Adam was not deceived and chose to disobey God. The story is straightforward enough.

I'm afraid you have just added a great deal to Gen 3, which you completely avoid if you take the view that I've expressed.

I do appreciate though that you do recognize that Eve wasn't the person who brought sin into this world. Eve has gotten a pretty bad rap over the millenniums.

She certainly has! A pity, because she is the only decent human being in the whole affair.

Hey Elijah, you haven't answered any of these points as yet! Do come back with reason and not prejudice.

 

[Sparkey]

What scriptural justification can you bring forward from Gen 3 to support this?

Wait. There is a requirement that we basis our beliefs of Gen 3 only? Where did that come from? Your question has been answered already.

See my previous post.

 

[Asyncritus]

Let's suppose that you were Abel. or living at the time of Abel - and all the scripture you had was Gen 1-3.

Could you possibly conclude that it was 'Lucifer', 'satan', the 'devil' who caused Adam and Eve to sin?

Would you not rather think that this was a real serpent? (Paul did, you know:

2 Cor.11:

3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.)