J
Jesse
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I would definitely agree, there are addictions far worse than others, drugs/alcohol, gambling, gluttony, promiscuous behaviors, self-mutilation, etc.
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Addiction is a disease
- Thread starter stovebolts
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Gary
Member
The addict is personally responsible for their psychological woes, a gunshot victim isn't. They are not the same. An addict brings about their own misfortune, asthma sufferers and victims of violent crime do not.
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My brother is an alcoholic. My mother is trying to convince me that it is a decease. Yessss….. He had to invest a lot of time, energy and money into contracting this ‘decease’. I know it sounds harsh, but he made a conscious choice to become an alcoholic. He now needs to make a conscious choice to rehabilitate.
th1b.taylor
Member
Some will call many forms of loving concern harsh and worse but that does not make it so. Youre right, if he dies drunk, he is at fault. When my son was 17 he got hooked up with Crack and would not quit. As a result I made him move out on the street and changed the locks. He ran to his mother, a former wife and today he will tell anyone I am the reason he is straight and that his mom is the reason he was messed up into his twenties. I would meet him on neutral gro but he was not allowed back in my house to steal any more and that did not change until he stopped that stupidity.
What yore doing is called tough love. The tough part is the one administering the love, it is not that tough on the one receiving.
To be 100% honest with you, Bill, I’m not practicing tough love. My brother made his choices and so did I. I have a beautiful little princess and I don’t want to expose her to the heartache that comes part and parcel with dealing with someone whom abuses alcohol. She is a very sensitive little soul and I, as her mommy, need to protect her from getting hurt until she is old / mature enough to understand.
No argument that addiction is self-inflicted, I don't think. Mine (and it just feels...odd calling what I went through an addiction, but it fits the description) certainly was, even if it had a lot less buzz than stuff like drugs or alcohol, and didn't require me to resort to behavior that alienated friends and family since it was readily available online. And I was a teen, so I didn't lose any job over it. (Though I did end up quitting my volunteer position after a while.)
I'd point out that illness can be a result of careless or reckless action, too. Such as disease and illness caused by malnutrition, food poisoning (potentially, if one ate the food knowing it was spoiled), etc.
I'd point out that illness can be a result of careless or reckless action, too. Such as disease and illness caused by malnutrition, food poisoning (potentially, if one ate the food knowing it was spoiled), etc.
stovebolts
Member
Hi,
Who is Heinen?
Did you know that Tramadol is an Opiate? It's in the same family as Heroin and is widely becoming the milder substitute to Oxycontin.
No doubt you've suffered both emotional and physical pain in your life both from the military as well as prior to going into the military. I would guess that the Tramadol helps with your anxiety and depression and over all feeling of well being. Thanks be to God that he put Opiates on this earth for this very purpose. When rightly used, everything God created has it's good purpose.
I've written this before, but it bears repeating. The Opioid receptors in the brain share the task of measuring both physical and emotional pain. In that part of the mind, both physical and emotional pain are not distinguished. Morphine, OxyContin, Tramadol, Percocet and heroin doesn't just cover physical pain, it covers emotional pain too. Here's how it works.
This is an easy concept that I came up with. It is not anatomically correct. But, think of a U and that's your synaptic circuit for your opioid receptor. At the tip of the left side, an endorphin is released. While it's suspended between the left and right side of the U, the mind feels the effects of that endorphin (well being). When the endorphin reaches the right side, it is taken back in and cycled back to the left side where it waits to be released again. For some people, that circuit doesn't work properly or in the case of pain reduction (or anxiety), we want to leave that circuit open for a longer duration.
What an Opiate does, is it blocks the reuptake of the endorphin. What do I mean by reuptake? It's the cycle where the endorphin is taken back in by the right side and then cycles back to be released by the left side once again. In short, the Opiate blocks the right side from taking the endorphin back in, thus leaving the endorphin suspended between the left and right side for a longer period of time. Remember, the endorphin is what gives us that warm fuzzy, it's gonna be all right nurturing feeling just on a much larger scale. When you were a child and you hurt yourself and when you saw your mother and you felt better, that was because your mind was releasing endorphins. It's the same circuit. That feeling that you were going to be ok when you saw the house, then got to the door, that was the dopamine kicking in.
Again, the Opioid receptors don't distinguish between physical and emotional pain. For some people, those circuits either never were established (we'll talk about that later) or they were damaged like yours were. Yes, all them years of drinking damaged your mind. That's what drinking and drugs do. The mind wants to level itself out, so it reduces the number of receptors. That's how tolerance is built. It's more accurate to say the mind was destroyed so it could endure. The mind simply starts discarding the receptacles in hopes to put itself back in balance. The chronic alcoholic, smoker and drug abuser may never fully recover simply because too many receptors have been eliminated. Some will come back, but not all of them. This is why you need your Tramadol and it works. If you didn't have the Tramadol, you might be inclined to go back to drinking because those feelings are stronger than your intellect. Oh, and by the way, all those years of alcohol abuse? It's taken part of your reasoning away. I'll talk about that in my next post.
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th1b.taylor
Member
'Chante,
That will, except he grow up, be the toughest, long range, act of, true, love you might ever have to complete.
I have a beautiful, ravingly so, granddaughter that married this past March that just a couple of weeks ago played in the 11 yards of "dirt" I had dumped in my yard the day before to enrich my garden with. She, in no manor, is a product of the fruit of my loins but, rather, is the product of a woman, beautiful in appearance, that did anything to get another fix. My daughter and her husband, the child's Uncle, once removed, took her in as an infant and protected her from her Birth Mother's life until she was to old to hide it from her.
Though there were never papers, she is my daughter's daughter and I have been Pap Paw since before she decided that was my name. We, like you have chosen to do, insulated her as much as we possibly could and loved her day. We still loved her mom but there were many things her birth mother was never allowed because it might have harmed our Ashley. You have a long, tough, to hoe and I pray the wisdom of Proverbs be yours throughout.
stovebolts
Member
I'm hearing a lot about choice and a lot about addiction simply being a choice and not a disease.
First, I want to make something very clear, and that's my agenda. Yes, I have an agenda and the agenda is based on a need I see. What is that need? Treatment for the addict. The reason I posted this topic is because the addict doesn't get adequate treatment. Health care doesn't treat addiction and getting into treatment is difficult, even if you have money. I attend weekly Naranon meetings and have been for some time and yes, we've had guest speakers from both halfway houses and one of the best rehabilitation centers in Michigan for dug addicts. (Sacred Heart). Both say that resources for treating addiction is extremely limited and inadequate. For many drug addicts, recovery is a three year process because that's about how long it takes for the receptors that were lost take to come back, but again, not all come back. Remember, Opiates cover both physical and emotional pain. This means treatment has to cover the emotional aspects of addiction.
Standard recovery is what? 3 weeks and then the addict is sent back home. Really? 3 weeks? I personally know one man who's 18 year old son is a heroin addict and the only rehab that had a bed was in Ohio. So, he jumped in his car and drove his kid to Ohio for a bed. Does that sound like we have adequate beds available to treat the addict? I also know a mother's who's son went into rehab and they had to wait weeks before they could get a bed. Thanks be to God she put up with him for those weeks until a bed became open. Most families can't stand the lies, stealing, disappointment etc of their child and they kick them out to the streets. Yeah, that really helps doesn't it? But she endured and got her son a bed and he's almost a year clean. He has spoken to our youth group at church about addiction and he's agreed to go on tour with me as we hit other church youth groups. Then there is the kid who shot himself with a shotgun. He suffered from addiction and finally got to that place (rock bottom) that he realized he needed recovery. His Dad called all around and couldn't find a bed and the waiting list was weeks. This whole kids world was lost. He had come to the place where he knew he needed help, and help wasn't available. His hopelessness so intense, he knew he couldn't stay clean or go clean. He was afraid that in the coming weeks while he waited for a bed, his addiction would take over and he wouldn't go. It was too much anxiety for him, so he got rid of the anxiety the best way he knew how. He killed himself.
I'm not talking ideology or theology here. I'm talking about real people with real problems and finding real solutions. Addiction is real and people are dying every day. It's a national epidemic that nobody is addressing. We need resources, not jails and not prisons.
Most petty crimes are from addicts looking for that $10 bag and their habit is costing them 2 or 300 dollars a day. How much does somebody have to steel just so they can supply their addiction? Get them clean and they stop stealing. Crime goes down and the neighborhood is a much nicer place to live. Throw them in jail and the first thing they do when they get out is go and get high again.
The science of addiction can be shown to be a disease much like mental disorders and addictions can be successfully treated. But the resources just aren't there. Categorize it as a disease, and everything changes. Both medical insurance would have to cover it and state and federal dollars could be diverted from our prison system to rehab solutions.
First, I want to make something very clear, and that's my agenda. Yes, I have an agenda and the agenda is based on a need I see. What is that need? Treatment for the addict. The reason I posted this topic is because the addict doesn't get adequate treatment. Health care doesn't treat addiction and getting into treatment is difficult, even if you have money. I attend weekly Naranon meetings and have been for some time and yes, we've had guest speakers from both halfway houses and one of the best rehabilitation centers in Michigan for dug addicts. (Sacred Heart). Both say that resources for treating addiction is extremely limited and inadequate. For many drug addicts, recovery is a three year process because that's about how long it takes for the receptors that were lost take to come back, but again, not all come back. Remember, Opiates cover both physical and emotional pain. This means treatment has to cover the emotional aspects of addiction.
Standard recovery is what? 3 weeks and then the addict is sent back home. Really? 3 weeks? I personally know one man who's 18 year old son is a heroin addict and the only rehab that had a bed was in Ohio. So, he jumped in his car and drove his kid to Ohio for a bed. Does that sound like we have adequate beds available to treat the addict? I also know a mother's who's son went into rehab and they had to wait weeks before they could get a bed. Thanks be to God she put up with him for those weeks until a bed became open. Most families can't stand the lies, stealing, disappointment etc of their child and they kick them out to the streets. Yeah, that really helps doesn't it? But she endured and got her son a bed and he's almost a year clean. He has spoken to our youth group at church about addiction and he's agreed to go on tour with me as we hit other church youth groups. Then there is the kid who shot himself with a shotgun. He suffered from addiction and finally got to that place (rock bottom) that he realized he needed recovery. His Dad called all around and couldn't find a bed and the waiting list was weeks. This whole kids world was lost. He had come to the place where he knew he needed help, and help wasn't available. His hopelessness so intense, he knew he couldn't stay clean or go clean. He was afraid that in the coming weeks while he waited for a bed, his addiction would take over and he wouldn't go. It was too much anxiety for him, so he got rid of the anxiety the best way he knew how. He killed himself.
I'm not talking ideology or theology here. I'm talking about real people with real problems and finding real solutions. Addiction is real and people are dying every day. It's a national epidemic that nobody is addressing. We need resources, not jails and not prisons.
Most petty crimes are from addicts looking for that $10 bag and their habit is costing them 2 or 300 dollars a day. How much does somebody have to steel just so they can supply their addiction? Get them clean and they stop stealing. Crime goes down and the neighborhood is a much nicer place to live. Throw them in jail and the first thing they do when they get out is go and get high again.
The science of addiction can be shown to be a disease much like mental disorders and addictions can be successfully treated. But the resources just aren't there. Categorize it as a disease, and everything changes. Both medical insurance would have to cover it and state and federal dollars could be diverted from our prison system to rehab solutions.
th1b.taylor
Member
Paul Edgar Heinen can be found on the wall under November 1966. He, like myself, is a product of Texas, second generation, German immigrants. Together, we were a team, tighter than brothers. I had been defrocked because I refused to fly a ship that was going to have an engine failure and was tied to the First Cavs. Base Camp by moving me into Field Maintenance, where a week later I and Heinen installed the new engine after a CH47 brought it to us from where it went down in the jungle.
I did not know that about Tramadol but my Shrink and my PC agreed on that and another Chemical, I forget, to remove the physical pains and the never ending live combat dreams where I find Heinen again as well as frequently awakening my wife screaming commands at her at all hours of the night such as get in that (blank) hole before they kill you. It took four ladies to find one that was willing to deal with me and my perpetual memories that I cannot, just get over.
I know that Tramadol gives me enough relief from the pains from the pains of the injuries of the crashes and being blown about by near explosions without making me high and being a former, active, drug abuser, I appreciate that and can deal with the lessor level of pain.
stovebolts
Member
I'm disappointed because I've ran out of time and I didn't get to talk about choice.
Let me just sum it up. Yes, choice is a factor. Everyone makes that initial choice to try drug's and everyone has to make the same choice to stop.
The addict has a disadvantage. A portion in their brain called the OFC is smaller in people with addictive personalities (this is scientific fact) The OFC pretty much controls the mind of a child until the frontal cortex develops which filters emotions and emotional responses. This is why the addict can act like a child, and have fits of rage or throw adult temper tantrums. Remember when I said drug use eliminates receptors in the mind? It does so in the front cortex where reasoning and rational takes place. It's called white matter. Addictive personalities not only have an undeveloped OFC, but they also have much less white matter in the pre-frontal cortex where decision making occurs. Again, this is fact and science has proven this.
When an addictive personality finds drugs, it works against their already known deficits because it shuts down white matter which filters the OFC..
In short, the choices become much more difficult for them. They are like children with no understanding, but the ability to parrot back what you want to hear.
Something to think about. When you put your kid out on the street with the idea of tough love, keep the communication open. Rock bottom for most is the grave. DO not enable an addict though, your you'll end up loving them to their grave.
Let me just sum it up. Yes, choice is a factor. Everyone makes that initial choice to try drug's and everyone has to make the same choice to stop.
The addict has a disadvantage. A portion in their brain called the OFC is smaller in people with addictive personalities (this is scientific fact) The OFC pretty much controls the mind of a child until the frontal cortex develops which filters emotions and emotional responses. This is why the addict can act like a child, and have fits of rage or throw adult temper tantrums. Remember when I said drug use eliminates receptors in the mind? It does so in the front cortex where reasoning and rational takes place. It's called white matter. Addictive personalities not only have an undeveloped OFC, but they also have much less white matter in the pre-frontal cortex where decision making occurs. Again, this is fact and science has proven this.
When an addictive personality finds drugs, it works against their already known deficits because it shuts down white matter which filters the OFC..
In short, the choices become much more difficult for them. They are like children with no understanding, but the ability to parrot back what you want to hear.
Something to think about. When you put your kid out on the street with the idea of tough love, keep the communication open. Rock bottom for most is the grave. DO not enable an addict though, your you'll end up loving them to their grave.
stovebolts
Member
Thank you for sharing. I have to be quick because I'm running late.
I hope you understood why the Tramadol works and why you drank so much. It's because of the emotional trauma you endure. All addicts are self medicating a wound and like yourself, they suffer emotional pains on a daily basis. the drug is the only thing that calms them and keeps them functioning. It's self destructive, but the pain gets so intense, the short term relief is worth any consequences.
Chronic drug users get their warm fuzzy from the end of a needle. They crave the feeling of being nurtured, even at the end of a needle. When an addict hits his rock bottom, if there isn't somebody there that has set safe boundaries and consistently shown acceptance and love, that addict will never recover. They will die.
What makes me different than my siblings? I found a Father in heaven who loves me more than I can imagine and I found a brother (Jesus) who promised me that he would never leave or forsake me. I got my since of belonging and well being from God and my identify from being part of a community that nurtured and loved me for who I was, which was a child of God.
We are God's body and we show God's love toward others through our actions. Want to play tough love? Set healthy boundaries and be consistent in keeping those boundaries. But always give the addict a choice. "If you want to live here, this is what is expected of you" and set the expectations appropriately. If you kick him or her out, it wasn't your doing. It ultimately came down to their "choice". "I love you and I care about you, but you've made the choice not to keep within the boundaries. I'll be here for you if you ever decide you can keep within those boundaries". The risk, of course.. is that rock bottom will be the grave for this person. This is why so many "enable" their addict. Your chances are far better with "Tough Love", as long as your equally heavy on the "love" part then they ever were by enabling the addict. Enabling is loving your child to death, and that's not love. It's control and fear.
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stovebolts
Member
I call this leverage
You create the environment where it leverages the person into rehab. Raj Mehta uses this all the time. The addict screams bloody murder and hates him at the moment. A week later when they are off the drug they see him as their savior.
stovebolts
Member
Is an addict responsible for being abused as a child? Are they responsible for being molested, beaten or ignored as a child?
Adopted children are more susceptible to addiction because of the cortisol the mother releases in the form of stress because she knows she has to give up her child. Any stress a mother has, but especially traumatic stress (This has been proven through pregnant mothers from 911). That high stress releases cortisol which impedes an infants mental capacity while in the womb. It attributes to a smaller OFC area in the brain and less white matter in the prefrontal cortex. These two physical traits within the mind are consistent with all addicts.
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jasonc
Member
asthma such as mine were triggered by my CHOICE to enlist and DEPLOY. I never had asthma until I went overseas. since I have that and I know what triggers it. is it a sin to smoke then? then when I have the really bad reaction then ask god to stop that? I think that is tempting god. I have been into areas where I know it might be triggered and I try to avoid it. ie laughing really hard will trigger a two hour attack. entering into dusty areas.
now then. since we Christians berate the alcoholics and drug users. then why don't we also point that finger at us when we are 30 or more pounds overweight? its all a state of mind with weight loss.
or is it? I have prayed for years to loose weight. my answer finally came in the job of meter reading. I have dropped two pant sizes. without going into the problematic army weight standards and bmi index I wanted to for the military.
for some its hard to lose weight, other eat all they want and don't gain. some are fat because legit medical issues. others because they eat too much!
jasonc
Member
I was going to seque into crack and heroin babies and also babies that are born from alcoholics who have that problem. to say that the drugs used by the mother while child is in doesn't effect the baby in utero is ignoring science.
Gary
Member
Malachi
Member
Gary,
North American culture has instilled into everyone for the last 100 years that no one is responsible for there own actions -- blame parents, blame schools, blame society, blame God, but don't blame yourself. So now addiction has be be classified as a "disease", which relieves you of all responsibility. Smokers took cigarette manufacturers to court and believe it or not -- they won! Blame the tobacco companies, but don't blame yourself.
Christ_empowered
Member
Cigarette smokers took Big Tobacco to court because Big Tobacco spent tons of money spreading lies and ruining peoples' lives, for filthy lucre's sake. Given how much money the tax payers have had to pay to clean up after Big Tobacco's mess, it seems only fair that BT should have to pay at least some people a ton of money.