"After the counsel of His own Will" !

[Who Says]

How do you know that anyone is smarter than that?? 'me' thinks that, that might backfire on all of 'us' ones postings, regardless of thread topics?:wink3

Something like reading another's mind or motives. What actually (in bottomline) makes a Rev. 2:5 candelstick removal necessary. Wrong thread? Wrong 'counsel'? whatever? If that is not the real FINAL fact! You know (with a question mark!) that we need a New Coverant theology inproved on because the OT GRACE BY FAITH was flawed some say & teach? Or surely the Gen. creation week cannot be taken as literal, as some of the so called educated 'teach.'

My beef? The evolution teaching's per/say are satanic false, yet the individual mind for doing so cannot be read by me, as such!

[You say} 'You are smarter than that.' ????

--Elijah

Do you mean besides having read his other posts which is not mind reading?

You are ranting sir. Not at all pretty. You falsely impune my good comment of confirmed faith in another gentleman's intelligence with eyes as though of a dark heart. And yet that is what Paul's description of love at 1 Cor 13:7 says my love ought to do.

You should appollogize if you are a gentleman man of God. Your post is cruel and deliberately offensive.

 

[Who Says]

God limits is but still did he not allow hiroshoma and nagaski? if we were to launch a nuke now would he stop it? his perogative he could but he lets evil be for a reason.

and i could walk you through the japenese mind on why they wouldnt surrender to the u.s. without an face saving reason the a-bomb gave them that reason. serious!

i have been to war btw and i know christians that have killed. i think its better to say that we have a free will and at times God in his soveriengity intervenes and stops us.

does he stop men from murder? war? rape? and drug use. surely you arent going to argue that christian men dont do these.

He does permit us to learn from the sin Adam got us into and that we perpetuate through our ignoring him, doesn't he. :yes

Is that not justice?

Your comments are thoughtful and deserving of a more complete discussion. Please allow me to later continue this a bit further with you. I would like to discuss how sometimes we think that what God is doing is only about us as individuals but the truth is that he is also and even most principally working with us as a family that is one unit of the one man Adam's body.

I would like to draw your thoughts out concerning what we might do, how we might handle it, if we had a large family and suddenly one day we saw that most all of its members had turned to their own separate ways and were paying no attention to what we asked of them for their benefit.

It is not really difficult to understand what God is doing if men would just keep their prideful intellectual views out of the picture.

By the way, you weren't in WWII were you? I saw on the news that the last WWII vet died recently? And I recognize those places you named as WWII battlefields from my father's many stories about his years in the Army.

And here I am now right close to the age my father was when he died. Yikes!!!

 

[childeye]

SBG57,

Does the Lord will sin?

My answer is no. Nonetheless, He performs all things according to His will. You will no doubt count this as double speak, please allow me to explain. The fact is ignorance exists because creation is an antecedent event, it comes after the creator. The creation made aware and sentient is at first subjective in view, just as a child views all things as if he or she is the center of the universe. The child will learn that God is at the center of all things. Sin from this objective point of view is a product of circumstance, which God in his forknowledge before He created anything, was aware would happen and prepared a way to eliminate it through the blood of Christ. Sin began in heaven with Satan who is the Father of sin. therefore Christ comes to destroy the works of Satan.

 

[warhorse]

Again that is faulty thinking.. having a choice does not mean that choice was given to be used to choose to do wrong things. Therefore God did not give free-will, he gave subjective will, governed will, will that is only to be used in synchronization with his will.

And the second example you give is God dealing with men who have an obstinate will (resistant to his will) in them due to sin. he then works with them as they insist upon being worked with, else he would just have to destroy them.

But if they choose not to obey his voice he punishes them. So were they really free to choose not to obey his will?

If I tell you that you are free to drive my car would it be fare of me to then call the police on you for doing so?

It is as I said, You cannot find any evidence in the Bible to support that God gave us free-will.

You can only come up with unreasoning views of scripture just as this you presented, which proves my point instead of yours when properly viewed.

And you need to stop doing that for the sake of the unbelievers it sours against ever becoming believers.

If you insist on freedom then describe it as it really is, 'God gives us freedom to choose if we want live or die.' And that is the only freedom he gives us apart from his will. If you desire more freedom you must get it by committing to tossing your sin based selfish will aside in favor of doing only his will. Then his will becomes your will and that is how you become one in him.

First off you have a very strange view of free will. If i have a choice to reject God or not, i have free will, wether it brings punishment or not, the choice in itself is free. Wether the options are good or not does not change our ability to choose. Second if we dont have free will we don't need to worry about other believers because they will do as God pleases regardless of what we do. I am showing you direct scripture that displays God giving Jesus and Israel the same choice Adam had, to choose Good over evil. That presents God presuming they can decide for themselves.
We become one with christ when we surrender our kingdom, our crown, to him at salvation. That is our choice to make. Then he has promised to preserve us with his spirit and predestined, us to be conformed to to his will.

 

[Alabaster]

First off you have a very strange view of free will. If i have a choice to reject God or not, i have free will, wether it brings punishment or not, the choice in itself is free. Wether the options are good or not does not change our ability to choose. Second if we dont have free will we don't need to worry about other believers because they will do as God pleases regardless of what we do. I am showing you direct scripture that displays God giving Jesus and Israel the same choice Adam had, to choose Good over evil. That presents God presuming they can decide for themselves.
We become one with christ when we surrender our kingdom, our crown, to him at salvation. That is our choice to make. Then he has promised to preserve us with his spirit and predestined, us to be conformed to to his will.

Yes sir!

 

[Who Says]

My answer is no. Nonetheless, He performs all things according to His will. You will no doubt count this as double speak, please allow me to explain. The fact is ignorance exists because creation is an antecedent event, it comes after the creator. The creation made aware and sentient is at first subjective in view, just as a child views all things as if he or she is the center of the universe. The child will learn that God is at the center of all things. Sin from this objective point of view is a product of circumstance, which God in his forknowledge before He created anything, was aware would happen and prepared a way to eliminate it through the blood of Christ. Sin began in heaven with Satan who is the Father of sin. therefore Christ comes to destroy the works of Satan.

I agree that God was aware of the potential even for Satan to sin. And certainly God is not unprepared to deal with such things. So I agree with you there also.

You have just described what many Americam Muslims (not the main stream Muslim) of the many I have talked to, tell me. And for them it means that even Satan will be saved. But they know that the NT Bible (especially Revelation) clearly contradicts that idea and they therefore say that their Koran and the first five books of the OT Bible is all that is truly God's word. Of course they believe they find support in the OT Bible that they are God's true people. And in talking to them they pick and choose what they want of the OT and the NT (usually from Paul's writings in the NT) to support that even the both admit they are the real people of God.

What is your take on that?

After you return comment on that question I would like to address what I see as weak spots in that summary according to scripture which are in need of adjustment.

 

[Who Says]

First off you have a very strange view of free will. If i have a choice to reject God or not, i have free will, wether it brings punishment or not, the choice in itself is free. Wether the options are good or not does not change our ability to choose. Second if we dont have free will we don't need to worry about other believers because they will do as God pleases regardless of what we do. I am showing you direct scripture that displays God giving Jesus and Israel the same choice Adam had, to choose Good over evil. That presents God presuming they can decide for themselves.
We become one with christ when we surrender our kingdom, our crown, to him at salvation. That is our choice to make. Then he has promised to preserve us with his spirit and predestined, us to be conformed to to his will.

I have explained often enough how you came to have that choice to choose to sin.

If you are happy to have that choice far be it from me to burst your bubble. Have at it. Delight in it.

 

[childeye]

First off you have a very strange view of free will. If i have a choice to reject God or not, i have free will, wether it brings punishment or not, the choice in itself is free. Wether the options are good or not does not change our ability to choose. Second if we dont have free will we don't need to worry about other believers because they will do as God pleases regardless of what we do. I am showing you direct scripture that displays God giving Jesus and Israel the same choice Adam had, to choose Good over evil. That presents God presuming they can decide for themselves.
We become one with christ when we surrender our kingdom, our crown, to him at salvation. That is our choice to make. Then he has promised to preserve us with his spirit and predestined, us to be conformed to to his will.

Your term for freewill is different than mine. I agree evryone will choose one way or another, but their decision will be preceded by the presence of faith or the absence of faith. In this sense these choices are not freely made. Ignorance precedes an ignorant choice, and wisdom precedes a wise one. Mankind was beguiled in the Garden of Eden, so says the bible, by one more cunning than they.

 

[Who Says]

Your term for freewill is different than mine. I agree evryone will choose one way or another, but their decision will be preceded by the presence of faith or the absence of faith. In this sense these choices are not freely made. Ignorance precedes an ignorant choice, and wisdom precedes a wise one. Mankind was beguiled in the Garden of Eden, so says the bible, by one more cunning than they.

Very fine point. :yes

When I see a thought like that which I have not afore considered it really fills me with joy.

 

[childeye]

I agree that God was aware of the potential even for Satan to sin. And certainly God is not unprepared to deal with such things. So I agree with you there also.

You have just described what many Americam Muslims (not the main stream Muslim) of the many I have talked to, tell me. And for them it means that even Satan will be saved. But they know that the NT Bible (especially Revelation) clearly contradicts that idea and they therefore say that their Koran and the first five books of the OT Bible is all that is truly God's word. Of course they believe they find support in the OT Bible that they are God's true people. And in talking to them they pick and choose what they want of the OT and the NT (usually from Paul's writings in the NT) to support that even the both admit they are the real people of God.

What is your take on that?

After you return comment on that question I would like to address what I see as weak spots in that summary according to scripture which are in need of adjustment.

You are very guiless in your conversation. One does not gain such humility without some experience of a sort. I do not know what Muslims believe, I know that knowledge is attained not invented, we are therefore subject to ignorance and knowledge of the Truth which will show itself in our decisions.

 

[childeye]

Dear who says, I am curious as to what Muslims see at the cross. How do they suppose sin is covered? Or do they feel sin is eradicated by a decision to do so out of fear of God. In Truth I even believe this is a way, but I repent out of the goodness of God, through the power of abiding in love, rather than the fear of punishment. If I don't use his Love, I fear He may leave me depraved.

 

[Who Says]

You are very guiless in your conversation. One does not gain such humility without some experience of a sort. I do not know what Muslims believe, I know that knowledge is attained not invented, we are therefore subject to ignorance and knowledge of the Truth which will show itself in our decisions.

To clarify, the Muslims I talked to in fairly large numbers were all in American prisons. I have studied a fair bit of psychology so I am also aware that the principles you expressed are taught in psychology. The men in prison also take an interest in psychology (usually as a means of trying to help them just do or even lessen their time) and what I figure has happened is that they have fused what they have learned through psychology with their beliefs as Muslims.

So they are definitely not indicative of the average Muslim in all of their views.

But it is my studies in the scriptures combined with my love of God and my fellow that has resulted in my calmness. As my understanding increased my panic decreased.

There is a form of knowledge that is as fool's gold. Invented knowledge lacks the power to produce that result in people. Such knowledge is more an addiction which exacerbates ones imperfections more than helps to heal them. And that is such a sad thing.

1 Timothy 6:20-21 "O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called;which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you."

The proof of the quality of our knowledge is in a very large part how it benefits us.

Isaiah 48:17 "Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit (or, benefit), which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go."

There is no substitute for his true knowledge which can do that.

 

[childeye]

To clarify, the Muslims I talked to in fairly large numbers were all in American prisons. I have studied a fair bit of psychology so I am also aware that the principles you expressed are taught in psychology. The men in prison also take an interest in psychology (usually as a means of trying to help them just do or even lessen their time) and what I figure has happened is that they have fused what they have learned through psychology with their beliefs as Muslims.

So they are definitely not indicative of the average Muslim in all of their views.

But it is my studies in the scriptures combined with my love of God and my fellow that has resulted in my calmness. As my understanding increased my panic decreased.

Invented knowledge lacks the power to produce that result in people. Such knowledge is more an addiction which exacerbates ones imperfections more than helps to heal them. And that is such a sad thing.

Interesting information. How true is your statement about knowledge. I trust God has given you a great gift born out of tribulation in your life. A pleasure it is to meet someone who actually bears a cross. My life so far has been charmed, and I have stumbled into many successes I would be proud of if I felt I could take credit for them. The problem with freewill for me defined as most people interpret it, is we are willing to take credit for sin along with taking credit for goodness. This is an atheistic point of view to me. Others define freewill as taking blame for sin and giving glory to God for goodness. I would not have a problem with this except if I take blame for sin I must also blame others. I have not walked in their shoes, nor have they walked in mine. Since many of the last will be first, I believe it is wise to consider that perhaps I should not accuse others no matter how great their sin is, I might appear self righteous to God. I seek mercy just like everybody else. It is quite possible that those who have sinned the greatest will love God the greatest and this thought makes me laugh.

 

[childeye]

Come on someone, say something

 

[Who Says]

Interesting information. How true is your statement about knowledge. I trust God has given you a great gift born out of tribulation in your life. A pleasure it is to meet someone who actually bears a cross. My life so far has been charmed, and I have stumbled into many successes I would be proud of if I felt I could take credit for them. The problem with freewill for me defined as most people interpret it, is we are willing to take credit for sin along with taking credit for goodness. This is an atheistic point of view to me. Others define freewill as taking blame for sin and giving glory to God for goodness. I would not have a problem with this except if I take blame for sin I must also blame others. I have not walked in their shoes, nor have they walked in mine. Since many of the last will be first, I believe it is wise to consider that perhaps I should not accuse others no matter how great their sin is, I might appear self righteous to God. I seek mercy just like everybody else. It is quite possible that those who have sinned the greatest will love God the greatest and this thought makes me laugh.

Sorry. I got pulled away by something unexpected.

You have a compassionate heart. A compassionate heart can get one hurt apart from the wisdom that knowledge and understanding produces. And as Paul says at 1 Corinthians 8: 1, knowledge alone can be a source of puffing a person up only to do harm.

Knowledge is like a finely sharpened knife. When used with skill by wisdom it is able to be used to separate what we hear from the mouths of other people accurately to help us discern what is in their hearts even then what we do with that insight gained of discernment can be used in a harmful way if we lack in love.

I think the changing point in my life began when I suddenly became able to see behind everything Paul spoke in his letters and saw that in all that he said he was telling us how to make our knowledge work together with love for the glorification of the gospel of Christ. His emphasis in all his writings is love and if we do not look to see that we then miss the most important part of his letters.

I had read Paul's letters many times but never did their true understanding flash up to my heart like it did after realizing he was always talking about love.

I have to take another break. Sorry. I will be back in another hour or so.

 

[jasoncran]

He does permit us to learn from the sin Adam got us into and that we perpetuate through our ignoring him, doesn't he. :yes

Is that not justice?

Your comments are thoughtful and deserving of a more complete discussion. Please allow me to later continue this a bit further with you. I would like to discuss how sometimes we think that what God is doing is only about us as individuals but the truth is that he is also and even most principally working with us as a family that is one unit of the one man Adam's body.

I would like to draw your thoughts out concerning what we might do, how we might handle it, if we had a large family and suddenly one day we saw that most all of its members had turned to their own separate ways and were paying no attention to what we asked of them for their benefit.

It is not really difficult to understand what God is doing if men would just keep their prideful intellectual views out of the picture.

By the way, you weren't in WWII were you? I saw on the news that the last WWII vet died recently? And I recognize those places you named as WWII battlefields from my father's many stories about his years in the Army.

And here I am now right close to the age my father was when he died. Yikes!!!

no. i am familiar with the japenese mind from martial arts and reading on the old culture of japan.i dont think the last ww2 vet died.my great uncle is still alive and he is from that era.

 

[Who Says]

Come on someone, say something

Sorry, my health has been fighting me all day. I am feeling a bit better tonight.


In this life we are all captives to a cruel taskmaster. Not even one of us is an exception.


Jesus came to preach deliverance to the captives. That is a good thing. Captives to a cruel taskmaster need to be delivered.


What we see happening to us, though, is that most people have proved to be unable to hear what Jesus has told us about our being delivered.


Yet, this has not surprised Jesus or his Father, either one. Arrangement to handle the situation is there set in place and being set in place by God through his Son Jesus. It is just that most have seen only one part of the larger picture and so do not know that. And in trying to make the lone part of the picture they see make sense to themselves they have become creative in their imaginations to make that lone part by itself work.


Because their knowledge is incomplete many struggle in desperation to get free. They become the crowd at the door fighting, shoving, and bickering with each other as they anxiously try to get themselves through that door. They grasp addictively at beliefs that assist them to find comfort telling them they are being successfully set free. And when the rest of the captives do not see the same illusion this inflames their desperation so that they hate the rest of the captives.


Such is the basis of religious confusion. Satan need not struggle to help that process along. He is no different than any one of us in needing only plant a fanciful imagination of his own. He really believes his own fanciful ideas, too.


If we could see what we are doing and why, we could then to gain mastery over our hate. But we have a bit of a paradox in that most of us are much too fearful to set aside our imagined comforts long enough to allow us to see. And we therefore cling tightly to our irrational judgments of others as we need those judgments to sustain our imagined comforts.


All of this we are doing to ourselves unaware that our fear is unfounded for God has not at all been caught by surprise and does have our needs covered. We merely do not see the rest of the picture being hindered in our minds and hearts by ill-founded fear. And that fear unchecked has turned us into madmen.


1 John 4:18 “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear hath torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.â€

 

[montanaviking]

@who says. I will have to admit that I found a lot of what you had to say confusing. I am not a new christian nor am I new to apolgetics and study. I think I just couldn't figure out exactly what you were saying about free-will. If you will answer these questions with yes or no, maybe with a simple explanation maybe I can nail down your points.

Can unbelievers choose to do right and/or wrong? Example: When faced with a decision to steal or not to steal can a believer choose not to steal?

To me that is the simple definition of free will. The ability to chose to obey God or not. However, that is NOT to say that the unbeliever can choose to be perfect. They cannot. All it takes is for one sin to separate us from God eternally and the bible is pretty clear that we are born into sin and have NO ability to be sinless.

Lets take a look at a hypothetical and purely illustrative conversation between God and an unbeliever as he stands before the judgement seat.

Unbeliever: I lived a pretty good life. I didn't kill anyone, nor did I ever steal anything from anybody. I kept my nose clean and didn't cheat on my wife. I think I deserve to get in.

God: Did you ever tell a lie?

Unbeliever: Well, yes I did lie a few times. But mostly I spoke the truth.

God: Why did you lie to your boss on June 8th 1998?

Unbeliever: I did not want to get in trouble for screwing up that assignment.

God: Could you have told the truth?

Unbeliever: Well yes

God: Then you chose to lie.

Unbeliever: Yes, but remember that time when I saw that guy drop that money in the parking lot at Wal-Mart and I gave it back to him?

God: Of course I remember

Unbeliever: I did the right thing then didn't I? I could have kept it, but didn't. I chose to do the right thing.

God: I am sorry, but that is not good enough to cover for the bad things you did.

Unbeliever: What bad things?

God: Well, how about on August 26, 2000 when you looked at that woman on the beach and thought about having sex with her? You could have chosen not to give in to that.

Unbeliever: Well....

God: What about on May 15, 1997 when you used Jesus Christ as a curse word and on.... (and God goes on to list all his sins.)
And finally what about March 20, 2011 when someone told you about needing to accept my son as your Lord and Saviour and you rejected him.

The unbeliever could point to times in his life when he chose to do right. But, he can never chose to be right. Even the "good" choices he makes are not good enough for God. Even though he makes the "right choice" at a moment. He is a slave to sin and has no ability to chose right in every situation he faces.
And when it comes to salvation that is the ultimate free-will choice. Believe or not believe.

I guess what I am saying is there is small free will in the choices people make when it comes to following God's commands. Sometimes people do make a choice to follow a command of God. Although that might not be exactly what they are thinking. But because they are a slave to sin, it is impossible for them to lead a sinless life.

Does that make sense?

 

[Who Says]

@who says. I will have to admit that I found a lot of what you had to say confusing. I am not a new christian nor am I new to apolgetics and study. I think I just couldn't figure out exactly what you were saying about free-will. If you will answer these questions with yes or no, maybe with a simple explanation maybe I can nail down your points.

Can unbelievers choose to do right and/or wrong? Example: When faced with a decision to steal or not to steal can a believer choose not to steal?

To me that is the simple definition of free will. The ability to chose to obey God or not. However, that is NOT to say that the unbeliever can choose to be perfect. They cannot. All it takes is for one sin to separate us from God eternally and the bible is pretty clear that we are born into sin and have NO ability to be sinless.

Lets take a look at a hypothetical and purely illustrative conversation between God and an unbeliever as he stands before the judgement seat.

Unbeliever: I lived a pretty good life. I didn't kill anyone, nor did I ever steal anything from anybody. I kept my nose clean and didn't cheat on my wife. I think I deserve to get in.

God: Did you ever tell a lie?

Unbeliever: Well, yes I did lie a few times. But mostly I spoke the truth.

God: Why did you lie to your boss on June 8th 1998?

Unbeliever: I did not want to get in trouble for screwing up that assignment.

God: Could you have told the truth?

Unbeliever: Well yes

God: Then you chose to lie.

Unbeliever: Yes, but remember that time when I saw that guy drop that money in the parking lot at Wal-Mart and I gave it back to him?

God: Of course I remember

Unbeliever: I did the right thing then didn't I? I could have kept it, but didn't. I chose to do the right thing.

God: I am sorry, but that is not good enough to cover for the bad things you did.

Unbeliever: What bad things?

God: Well, how about on August 26, 2000 when you looked at that woman on the beach and thought about having sex with her? You could have chosen not to give in to that.

Unbeliever: Well....

God: What about on May 15, 1997 when you used Jesus Christ as a curse word and on.... (and God goes on to list all his sins.)
And finally what about March 20, 2011 when someone told you about needing to accept my son as your Lord and Saviour and you rejected him.

The unbeliever could point to times in his life when he chose to do right. But, he can never chose to be right. Even the "good" choices he makes are not good enough for God. Even though he makes the "right choice" at a moment. He is a slave to sin and has no ability to chose right in every situation he faces.
And when it comes to salvation that is the ultimate free-will choice. Believe or not believe.

I guess what I am saying is there is small free will in the choices people make when it comes to following God's commands. Sometimes people do make a choice to follow a command of God. Although that might not be exactly what they are thinking. But because they are a slave to sin, it is impossible for them to lead a sinless life.

Does that make sense?

Repose your questions with just these four corrected understandings of what I have said and then I will be happy to answer your reposed questions simply as yes or no.

That four corrections are these:

(1) I never said we do not have the ability to will and the power to make choices in accord with will. I did say we are to only use them in harmony with God's will.

(2) What I am opposing is that because of the way free-will is taught it has become commonly believed in this world to be "THE RIGHT TO TELL GOD NO".

(3) And the problem with the way free-will is taught is that it makes the world believe God gave us that right to tell him "NO".

(4) And since it is not true that God gave us the right to tell him no (else he could have forgiven Adam) the use of the term "Free Will" is a poor choice of words to describe what God did give to us, which was "God Governed Will" or "God Syncronized Will".

It is irresponsible on our part (even if we happen to be one that understands how our relative freedom to will and our power of choice is to be correctly used) to deliberately keep using a word or description of it that in the minds of the world is interpreted that God purposely gave us the freedom to say "NO" to him and thus curse this world to sin and suffering by using that freedom.

Get those simple things correct (which I have faith is not beyond your ability to do). Then at least I can see real evidence you are trying and not just haggling with me.

 

[Who Says]

This right here is the heart of the matter:

Deuteronomy 32:5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

Do you get that? Their spot (BLEMISH or MARK) is evidence they are not his children.

God did not produce them to be that way. He did not make them that way.

Therefore it is impossible that he gave us freedom as a right to say NO to him.

To say different is like saying you gave birth to a child so you could not be its father.

We are his offspirng in the real sense. Acts 17:28-29