"After the counsel of His own Will" !

[Who Says]

If you are not walking in the Spirit's power, you are walking in the flesh.

That we can agree upon. :yes

 

[Alabaster]

WhoSays~

If you believe that we have no free will to refuse Christ, then are you saying that God's will is that we all come to Him, and thus He imposes His great will on men to bring some kicking and screaming?

If so, scripture, pullease...

Are you a Universalist? Unitarian?

 

[Who Says]

Agreed , Jesus, the second Adam had free will
Isaiah 7v14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good.
16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and CHOOSE the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.

And so did Israel
Due 30 v15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Again that is faulty thinking.. having a choice does not mean that choice was given to be used to choose to do wrong things. Therefore God did not give free-will, he gave subjective will, governed will, will that is only to be used in synchronization with his will.

And the second example you give is God dealing with men who have an obstinate will (resistant to his will) in them due to sin. he then works with them as they insist upon being worked with, else he would just have to destroy them.

But if they choose not to obey his voice he punishes them. So were they really free to choose not to obey his will?

If I tell you that you are free to drive my car would it be fare of me to then call the police on you for doing so?

It is as I said, You cannot find any evidence in the Bible to support that God gave us free-will.

You can only come up with unreasoning views of scripture just as this you presented, which proves my point instead of yours when properly viewed.

And you need to stop doing that for the sake of the unbelievers it sours against ever becoming believers.

If you insist on freedom then describe it as it really is, 'God gives us freedom to choose if we want live or die.' And that is the only freedom he gives us apart from his will. If you desire more freedom you must get it by committing to tossing your sin based selfish will aside in favor of doing only his will. Then his will becomes your will and that is how you become one in him.

 

[Who Says]

WhoSays~

If you believe that we have no free will to refuse Christ, then are you saying that God's will is that we all come to Him, and thus He imposes His great will on men to bring some kicking and screaming?

If so, scripture, pullease...

Are you a Universalist? Unitarian?

You twist my words. Shame on you.

I said we have the power to refuse Christ but it is not God's will that we do so and he did not give us an ability to will or a power of choice for that purpose.

And the way you and so many others describe free-will you make the world believe the opposite of that.

 

[Alabaster]

You twist my words. Shame on you.

I said we have the power to refuse Christ but it is not God's will that we do so and he did not give us an ability to will or a power of choice for that purpose.

And the way you and so many others describe free-will you make the world believe the opposite of that.

Yes, God created us with the power of self-determination, or free will. Of course God's perfect will is that we choose Christ. His permissive will allows that we do not.

Joshua 24:15 NLT
But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.â€

 

[Who Says]

Yes, God created us with the power of self-determination, or free will. Of course God's perfect will is that we choose Christ. His permissive will allows that we do not.

Joshua 24:15 NLT
But if you refuse to serve the Lord, then choose today whom you will serve. Would you prefer the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates? Or will it be the gods of the Amorites in whose land you now live? But as for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.”

You said: "Yes, God created us with the power of self-determination, or free will. Of course God's perfect will is that we choose Christ. His permissive will allows that we do not."

So God as you see him is permissive of sin? (or of the choice to sin which makes little difference)

That is exactly what the world sees you as saying.

And in believing you they are soured against God by that view.

How does that make you feel?

Joshua 24:15 does not prove your point. That is yet God dealing with men of sin according to their own stubborn way. But they must change if God would accept them into salvation.

 

[Alabaster]

So God as you see him is permissive of sin? (or of the choice to sin which makes little difference)

He allows us a sovereignty all our own to choose Christ or not. He will never violate our will.

That is exactly what the world sees you as saying.

And in believing you they are soured against God by that view.

How does that make you feel?

You are wrong, so I feel great.

There is nothing in the truth of what I have presented that sours anyone on God unless they are determined to be sour on God. I love God for giving me that ability, and the fact that He engineered my life so that I would choose Him. It is the mark of His great affection.


Nothing that the Lord does interferes with our free will. He may have influence over events along the way and thus limit our available range or type of choices, but not the freedom to truly make our own choices. He will also engineer events that would serve to influence us in a way He desires us to go, but He will not override that will.

This sovereign power of mankind and the choices resulting therefrom are in many ways the major sources of both the troubles and the joys of our mortal lives as well as the determining factors as to where our souls will spend eternity.

Much of the Old Testament narrative depicting the Israelites' ups and downs through the ages, their devotion and their transgressions, and God’s response to them, can easily be viewed as a saga of man’s sovereignty of choice and God’s restraint from violating that sovereignty.

 

[Who Says]

He allows us a sovereignty all our own to choose Christ or not. He will never violate our will.

You are wrong, so I feel great.

There is nothing in the truth of what I have presented that sours anyone fro God unless they are determined to be sour on God. I love God for giving me that ability, and the fact that He engineered my life so that I would choose Him. It is the mark of His great affection.


Nothing that the Lord does interferes with our free will. He may have influence over events along the way and thus limit our available range or type of choices, but not the freedom to truly make our own choices. He will also engineer events that would serve to influence us in a away He desires us to go, but He will not override that will.

This sovereign power of mankind and the choices resulting therefrom are in many ways the major sources of both the troubles and the joys of our mortal lives as well as the determining factors as to where our souls will spend eternity.

Much of the Old Testament narrative depicting the Israelites' ups and downs through the ages, their devotion and their transgressions, and God’s response to them, can easily be viewed as a saga of man’s sovereignty of choice and God’s restraint from violating that sovereignty.

So be it. :waving

 

[Alabaster]

Joshua 24:15 does not prove your point. That is yet God dealing with men of sin according to their own stubborn way. But they must change if God would accept them into salvation.

Yes it does prove my point. We are given the choice. Choose Christ and live, or choose anything else and die.

 

[Who Says]

Yes it does prove my point. We are given the choice. Choose Christ and live, or choose anything else and die.

Pardon me then.

The point I thought I saw you making over and over throughout all of your posts was that God created man to have the freedom to choose to sin or serve him.

And I say that the Bible clearly shows God created man only to serve him. Man misused their power of choice and used it to sin. Thus they took to themselves a will of their own instead of being obedient to only God's will.

And that is Satan's sin of usurping God. And that is why we see the Man of Sin in God's Temple at 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 showing himself to be God, usurping the authority of God.

Genesis 3:4 "And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil."

Genesis 3:22 "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life."

Yep, that nasty old belief that they had the right to do it, that God had given them free-will to choose to sin, got them in trouble.

Glad to know you see that. :yes

 

[Alabaster]

Pardon me then.

The point I thought I saw you making over and over throughout all of your posts was that God created man to have the freedom to choose to sin or serve him.

We do have the freedom to choose to serve Him or not. As unbelievers, serving ourselves or any other god or philosophy, we don't have any choice to sin or not--we will just sin naturally, without compunction.

When we choose Christ, we are changed into a new man, one that has no sin addiction, and in order for us to sin, for the most part, it is a choice, and we are led into Godly sorrow by the Holy Spirit which leads us to repentance.

 

[Who Says]

We do have the freedom to choose to serve Him or not. As unbelievers, serving ourselves or any other god or philosophy, we don't have any choice to sin or not--we will just sin naturally, without compunction.

When we choose Christ, we are changed into a new man, one that has no sin addiction, and in order for us to sin, for the most part, it is a choice, and we are led into Godly sorrow by the Holy Spirit which leads us to repentance.

Adam didn't.

That is an exception made of God's love by grace because Adam made that first decision for us. We were born into it without a choice so he gave us that choice despite the sin in us due to Adam's unlawful use of his will.

But as you see, Adam did not get away with it. Adam had no right to do it and God therefore took Adam's life without offering him any mercy.

You are confusing the mercy God shows to us because we had no original choice in the matter of Adam's sin with his having given Adam free-will to make such a choice as to defy God.

And you are confusing how God deals with us in mercy toward the sin in us as we did not ask to be born that way nor do anything to personally deserve it.

Man's thinking is severely in need of reconstruction. And that is what God is trying to help us all to do if we will listen to him and toss the opinions we confuse ourselves with aside so that we can hear him.

You will get the same opportunity as Adam without any mercy should you sin as he did once God's grace has finished its course.

 

[Alabaster]

Adam didn't.

That is an exception made of God's love by grace because Adam made that first decision for us. We were born into it without a choice so he gave us that choice despite the sin in us due to Adam's unlawful use of his will.

But as you see, Adam did not get away with it. Adam had no right to do it and God therefore took Adam's life without offering him any mercy.

You are confusing the mercy God shows to us because we had no original choice in the matter of Adam's sin with his having given Adam free-will to make such a choice as to defy God.

And you are confusing how God deals with us in mercy toward the sin in us as we did not ask to be born that way nor do anything to personally deserve it.

Man's thinking is severely in need of reconstruction. And that is what God is trying to help us all to do if we will listen to him and toss the opinions we confuse ourselves with aside so that we can hear him.

Adam didn't what?

He chose to contravene God's command. He chose death. I think you are rewriting your own theology. We are not confused, but you are doing a number on some who would be weak in their faith.

You will get the same opportunity as Adam without any mercy should you sin as he did once God's grace has finished its course.

My Daddy has great mercy toward me every day, and especially when I sin. He gently brings me to repentance and then our relationship is restored. Such is God's marvelous Grace.

Preach the Gospel. Reap a harvest.

 

[montanaviking]

@ Who Says,
Ok, let me see if I get what you are saying. God did not give us free-will to choose wrong, because it is not fair for him to tell us something and then punish us for it.

You used the car analogy. I don't think that fits very well. It is more like God saying "You have the ability to choose or not to choose to drive this car. But I warn you that if you choose to drive the car you will be punished for it."

Now, the other thing here is do we really have a choice now. The bible tells us that we are "condemned already." And that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." I really think free will only pertains to one thing really. That is the free-will to choose or not to choose Christ. To believe or not to believe is really what free will is about.

I think I may agree with you that free will does not apply to the unbeliever when it comes to whether to sin or not. The unbeliever has no ability to choose to live for God outside of Christ. Once we believe and enter the kingdom of God as a child of God, that is when we really start to be able to excersize free will in doing or not doing the will of God.

 

[Eventide]

Once we believe and enter the kingdom of God as a child of God, that is when we really start to be able to excersize free will in doing or not doing the will of God.

I agree, think about it.. if a Christian didn't have free will then they would never sin.. it's either that or God is willing that you sin.. and that's impossible.

We also should know that there's a war going on and that the flesh always wars with the Spirit of Christ who lives in us... and that they're contrary to one another.

 

[Who Says]

@ Who Says,
Ok, let me see if I get what you are saying. God did not give us free-will to choose wrong, because it is not fair for him to tell us something and then punish us for it.

I said, God did not give us an ability to exercise will and make choices except to use it within his will. Any other use is a mis-use of what he gave us that ability for.

You would not give your own son a dangerous tool for the purpose that he could also hurt his self with it if he so desired to. Neither would God.

You used the car analogy. I don't think that fits very well. It is more like God saying "You have the ability to choose or not to choose to drive this car. But I warn you that if you choose to drive the car you will be punished for it."

It is good you recognize that. That was my point in saying what I said. That is exactly what God did tell them about turning away from him and sinning.

And we can clearly see that is not a choice at all but it is a warning, 'Don't do it.'

Now, the other thing here is do we really have a choice now. The bible tells us that we are "condemned already." And that "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." I really think free will only pertains to one thing really. That is the free-will to choose or not to choose Christ. To believe or not to believe is really what free will is about.

Excellent point. What is that choice really then? It is just the choice between accepting salvation or rejecting it, life in Christ or death, isn't it.

How much freedom do we have left once God puts us to death for refusing him? None!!! So if we want true freedom and a freedom that we can be sure will never hurt us, how do we have to get it? By obeying whose will?

I think I may agree with you that free will does not apply to the unbeliever when it comes to whether to sin or not. The unbeliever has no ability to choose to live for God outside of Christ. Once we believe and enter the kingdom of God as a child of God, that is when we really start to be able to excersize free will in doing or not doing the will of God.

That is when we have a will that is completely in sync with and regulated (kept in check) by God's will. God's will is not that we be puppet prisoners within his will but that we have freedom to exercise his love. Not our own brand of love. His genuine love.

You are now understanding. Praise God!!! And that understanding will keep growing.

 

[jasoncran]

but he can misuse it?! hmm lets see. there are christian scientist that are biologist and or physicists. so they cant improve upon or design a wmd?

 

[Who Says]

but he can misuse it?! hmm lets see. there are christian scientist that are biologist and or physicists. so they cant improve upon or design a wmd?

If they actually do improve it then that must be God's will and therefore they would be exercising within the limits of God's will.

But how often do we see them make changes to things that end up backfiring on us and hurting us after they have touted those things to be safe?

Do you think that is what God gave them the ability to will and make choices for, so they could do that, hurting themselves and others? Surely you can see how claiming such a thing would falsely defame our loving God in the eyes of the world.

You are smarter than that.

 

[jasoncran]

If they actually do improve it then that must be God's will and therefore they would be exercising within the limits of God's will.

But how often do we see them make changes to things that end up backfiring on us and hurting us after they have touted those things to be safe?

Do you think that is what God gave them the ability to will and make choices for, so they could do that, hurting themselves and others? Surely you can see how claiming such a thing would falsely defame our loving God in the eyes of the world.

You are smarter than that.

God limits is but still did he not allow hiroshoma and nagaski? if we were to launch a nuke now would he stop it? his perogative he could but he lets evil be for a reason.

and i could walk you through the japenese mind on why they wouldnt surrender to the u.s. without an face saving reason the a-bomb gave them that reason. serious!

i have been to war btw and i know christians that have killed. i think its better to say that we have a free will and at times God in his soveriengity intervenes and stops us.

does he stop men from murder? war? rape? and drug use. surely you arent going to argue that christian men dont do these.

 

[Elijah674]

If they actually do improve it then that must be God's will and therefore they would be exercising within the limits of God's will.

But how often do we see them make changes to things that end up backfiring on us and hurting us after they have touted those things to be safe?

Do you think that is what God gave them the ability to will and make choices for, so they could do that, hurting themselves and others? Surely you can see how claiming such a thing would falsely defame our loving God in the eyes of the world.


You are smarter than that.

How do you know that anyone is smarter than that?? 'me' thinks that, that might backfire on all of 'us' ones postings, regardless of thread topics?:wink3

Something like reading another's mind or motives. What actually (in bottomline) makes a Rev. 2:5 candelstick removal necessary. Wrong thread? Wrong 'counsel'? whatever? If that is not the real FINAL fact! You know (with a question mark!) that we need a New Coverant theology inproved on because the OT GRACE BY FAITH was flawed some say & teach? Or surely the Gen. creation week cannot be taken as literal, as some of the so called educated 'teach.'

My beef? The evolution teaching's per/say are satanic false, yet the individual mind for doing so cannot be read by me, as such!

[You say} 'You are smarter than that.' ????

--Elijah