Alcohol and the Christian

[Malachi]

I wonder if maybe we should steer this thread back on topic.

The long and the short of it is that alcohol is essentially a drug which impairs human beings, and in excess destroys certain organs and bodily functions. The puzzling thing is that marijuana is also a drug, but consuming alcohol is not a crime, whereas the possession of marijuana is a crime. There is something seriously wrong about this scenario.

 

[Malachi]

I drink way too much Diet Coke, and I know it. It doesn't impair my mind like alcohol, but anything in excess can be a stumbling block.

This rightly belongs in the Addiction thread. Imagine being addicted to Diet Coke. If it was Coke Classic, that could be excused.2

 

[Jim Parker]

The long and the short of it is that alcohol is essentially a drug which impairs human beings, and in excess destroys certain organs and bodily functions. The puzzling thing is that marijuana is also a drug, but consuming alcohol is not a crime, whereas the possession of marijuana is a crime. There is something seriously wrong about this scenario.

Alcohol also has beneficial effects for the body.
Marijuana is much more toxic and has higher levels of carcinogens than tobacco at it's worst.
But, yeah. There is something wrong there.

 

[Malachi]

Marijuana is much more toxic and has higher levels of carcinogens than tobacco at it's worst.

And yet marijuana has medical uses, whereas whiskey is rarely prescribed. Interestingly enough when you read fiction about the American West, the doctors were generally drunks. There must have been a grain of truth in that.

 

[Mike]

As WIP said, we need to get back to the OP; what scripture has to say about drinking alcohol without getting intoxicated. I include myself with those who've had a part in getting us off track.

Thank you.

 

[smaller]

God apparently didn't have a problem with alcohol. Even accepted it as a tithe/offering of some sort.

Exodus 22:29
Thou shalt not delay to offer the first of thy ripe fruits, and of thy liquors: the firstborn of thy sons shalt thou give unto me.

 

[th1b.taylor]

And yet marijuana has medical uses, whereas whiskey is rarely prescribed. Interestingly enough when you read fiction about the American West, the doctors were generally drunks. There must have been a grain of truth in that.

I suspect that has a lot to do with why combat veterans are so difficult to get off drugs and alcohol. And the practice of medicine was barbaric compared to today and doctors and nurses today have the same problem because of the blood and the gore. I promise you the day we flew the man holding his intestines in aq wet towel and the day we flew the man in and his brain matter and blood coated the inside of the ship and us, we drak healthy, or is that, very unhealthy doses of 150 proof rum whiskey cleaning that up.

It is difficult to learn to9 laugh and if or when you finallky do, people think you exist in La La Land and that you are one sick, sick, puppy.

 

[Jim Parker]

This rightly belongs in the Addiction thread. Imagine being addicted to Diet Coke. If it was Coke Classic, that could be excused.2

It has to be MEXICAN Coca Cola. They still use sugar in stead of High Fructose Corn Syrup and it tastes better.

when you read fiction about the American West, the doctors were generally drunks. There must have been a grain of truth in that.

Why? It's fiction.
In moderation, alcohol has some health benefits. http://www.medicaldaily.com/7-health-benefits-drinking-alcohol-247552
The problem is abuse. Alcohol is the most widely abused drug in the USA. But abuse is what PEOPLE do, not what alcohol does.

Causes of death in USA per year (Approximate)
Cause Annual Deaths
HIV 5686 16/day
Kidney Disease 8564 23/day
Respiratory Disease 8679 24/day
Diabetes 11,934 33/day
Accident 12,215 33/day
Homicide 12,795 35/day
Alcohol 29,000 79/day
Cancer 63,279 173/day
Heart Disease 69,918 192/day
In Hospital Medical Error 195,000 285/day
Abortion 1,060,000 2909/day

 

[jasonc]

The long and the short of it is that alcohol is essentially a drug which impairs human beings, and in excess destroys certain organs and bodily functions. The puzzling thing is that marijuana is also a drug, but consuming alcohol is not a crime, whereas the possession of marijuana is a crime. There is something seriously wrong about this scenario.

Not in all states nor countries. I'm not pro pot nor a drinker .but pot is a lot less dangerous to others then alcohol.

 

[Cygnus]

Psalms 104:15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart

Moderation...in the right place at the right time.
Problems happen when you can't moderate...and gladden turns into sadden.

 

[Radagast]

I was raised in a Baptist denomination that preached against drinking alcohol. However, when I read the Bible carefully in my teens and 20s, I found that the Bible was against drunkenness and not against drinking alcohol.

Indeed

If we assume 3-to-1 dilution of wine, and that wine then was about the same 12% alcohol as now (reasonable, given the way that yeast works), then diluted wine would be about the strength of light beer. My reading of 1 Timothy 5:23 is that Paul is telling Timothy not to drink water (μηκέτι ὑδροπότει) but to drink diluted wine instead, in order to avoid his frequent gastrointestinal problems. Basically, water in many places was simply not safe to drink.

In Greek-style feasts, a "governor of the feast" (probably the person in John 2:9) controlled the wine-water mix, putting more water in the mix if the people were getting too rowdy. Today, the government encourages us to count "standard drinks" for ourselves. One drink a day for women and one or two for men seems to be beneficial for health. More than that starts to be a negative.

 

[Radagast]

.

 

[chessman]

One drink a day for women and one or two for men seems to be beneficial for health. More than that starts to be a negative.

I've been trying to keep up with the eternal security thread. I need three standard drinks per day

 

[OzSpen]

Indeed

If we assume 3-to-1 dilution of wine, and that wine then was about the same 12% alcohol as now (reasonable, given the way that yeast works), then diluted wine would be about the strength of light beer. My reading of 1 Timothy 5:23 is that Paul is telling Timothy not to drink water (μηκέτι ὑδροπότει) but to drink diluted wine instead, in order to avoid his frequent gastrointestinal problems. Basically, water in many places was simply not safe to drink.

In Greek-style feasts, a "governor of the feast" (probably the person in John 2:9) controlled the wine-water mix, putting more water in the mix if the people were getting too rowdy. Today, the government encourages us to count "standard drinks" for ourselves. One drink a day for women and one or two for men seems to be beneficial for health. More than that starts to be a negative.

Rad,

That is excellent reinforcement of what I was saying. It is true that purified and safe water in the first century was an impossibility and that diluted wine was much safer, especially if there were medical bugs that needed attention (stomach ailments).

Since purer water is available to me here in Brisbane, my wife and I choose to drink water and not alcohol. We do not have biblical reasons for rejecting alcohol but do it for practical reasons and as an example in an alcohol-soaked country.

Oz

 

[WIP]

I've been trying to keep up with the eternal security thread. I need three standard drinks per day

Tell me about it!

 

[chessman]

Tell me about it!

I appreciate the effort you and the other mods/admin put into this site. You do a great job.

I actually appreciate the counter interpretaions disagreeing debaters share in their posts too.

 

[Radagast]

That is excellent reinforcement of what I was saying. It is true that purified and safe water in the first century was an impossibility and that diluted wine was much safer, especially if there were medical bugs that needed attention (stomach ailments).

Since purer water is available to me here in Brisbane, my wife and I choose to drink water and not alcohol. We do not have biblical reasons for rejecting alcohol but do it for practical reasons and as an example in an alcohol-soaked country.

From a Biblical point of view, alcohol is neither forbidden nor compulsory, so you can praise God for His precious gift of pure, clean, cool, safe water, and I can praise Him for his gift of wine, taken in very careful moderation.

 

[OzSpen]

From a Biblical point of view, alcohol is neither forbidden nor compulsory, so you can praise God for His precious gift of pure, clean, cool, safe water, and I can praise Him for his gift of wine, taken in very careful moderation.

I don't disagree with you. However, my wife and I have chosen to be teetotalers for practical reasons, not the least being the abuse of alcohol in our Aussie culture.

 

[Obadiah]

Indeed

If we assume 3-to-1 dilution of wine, and that wine then was about the same 12% alcohol as now (reasonable, given the way that yeast works), then diluted wine would be about the strength of light beer. My reading of 1 Timothy 5:23 is that Paul is telling Timothy not to drink water (μηκέτι ὑδροπότει) but to drink diluted wine instead, in order to avoid his frequent gastrointestinal problems. Basically, water in many places was simply not safe to drink.

In Greek-style feasts, a "governor of the feast" (probably the person in John 2:9) controlled the wine-water mix, putting more water in the mix if the people were getting too rowdy. Today, the government encourages us to count "standard drinks" for ourselves. One drink a day for women and one or two for men seems to be beneficial for health. More than that starts to be a negative.

I'm curious where did you find this information on them diluting their wine with water? I haven't read this whole thread (and can't because I'm at work right now), so maybe it was talked about earlier? I don't see anything in 1Tim 5:23 or John 2:9 that says anything about diluting the wine with water. Biblical use of alcohol is a subject that comes up for me a lot, so I'd be interested in knowing where this information can be verified.

 

[OzSpen]

I'm curious where did you find this information on them diluting their wine with water? I haven't read this whole thread (and can't because I'm at work right now), so maybe it was talked about earlier? I don't see anything in 1Tim 5:23 or John 2:9 that says anything about diluting the wine with water. Biblical use of alcohol is a subject that comes up for me a lot, so I'd be interested in knowing where this information can be verified.

Obadiah,

Isa 1:22 (NIV) states, 'Your silver has become dross, your choice wine is diluted with water'.

Daniel Wallace has written a thoughtful, but introductory, article on, 'The Bible and alcohol'.

Dr R A Baker's article, 'Wine in the ancient world', deals with some of the dilution in wine (could be up to 20:1) and some of the misinformation concerning this practice.

Oz