Bible Study All Israel Will Be Saved.

[Deborah13]

that has been done. they failed to see that at the cross. the cross is the new way of doing the torah. they look for a human/king to restore the land. actually two moshiacs. ben david and ben joseph.

Jason, please correct me if I am wrong in this statement, please.

And both ben david (son of David) and ben joseph (son of Joseph), would be natural men, not someone who can saying He was the Son of God.

 

[jasoncran]

yes, that is correct, the moshiac to them need not do miracles and will NOT claim any diety.

 

[jasoncran]

the futurist teaches and tells the jews that moshiac ben david is coming but they forget to deal with ben joseph. really the later is what we should teach and also the former wil come not to save isreal but to judge all.

 

[Deborah13]

the futurist teaches and tells the jews that moshiac ben david is coming but they forget to deal with ben joseph. really the later is what we should teach and also the former wil come not to save isreal but to judge all.

Sorry Jason, I don't understand. What should one teach?

 

[jasoncran]

jesus died on the cross as the suffering messiah(ben joseph) then will return as ben david. it is doable if you take their verses that support those two and combine them into the Lord we know.

for instance Isaiah 53 is where they get the idea of ben joseph. and ben david i think is found in zechariah.

 

[Deborah13]

jesus died on the cross as the suffering messiah(ben joseph) then will return as ben david. it is doable if you take their verses that support those two and combine them into the Lord we know.

for instance Isaiah 53 is where they get the idea of ben joseph. and ben david i think is found in zechariah.

Ok, I understand David as the King. I'll have to read Isaiah 53 to grasp Joseph. Not that I will ever be witnessing to a Jew but it all so interesting. And I do pray for them to know the Messiah.

 

[Sinthesis]

Thanks for this post.
I'd really like you to explain them, Esau/Jacob and Jacob/Israel.
I don't do a very good job explaining either one.

There is so much symbolism in the lives of OT characters that it is easy to get lost on tangents. Basically every generation arrives at a metaphorical fork in the road, with each character taking one of the paths. While each path may seem reasonable on some level, there is only one worthy of being associated with Christ's lineage. So Abram/Abraham had two sons(posterity pathways); one(Ishmael) representing his own efforts with Hagar, the other one(Isaac) an unearned gift from God through Sarah. The gift from God had two sons; one(Esau) believed his birthright had the worldly practical value of a meal, the other one(Jacob) desired the birthright for its spiritual significance. One(Esau) was swindled of his rightful blessing, while the swindler was forced to leave the promised land. Before the swindler could return to the promised land he had to wrestle with God. Jacob chose not to submit to God and thus returned to the promised land blessed, crippled, and with a new name. How would he have crossed over to the promised land had he submitted to God? My guess is blessed, healthy or healed, and still with the new name of Israel. So here we have two types of Israel; defiant and crippled vs submissive and vigorous, today representing Judaism and Christianity respectively.

 

[Deborah13]

There is so much symbolism in the lives of OT characters that it is easy to get lost on tangents. Basically every generation arrives at a metaphorical fork in the road, with each character taking one of the paths. While each path may seem reasonable on some level, there is only one worthy of being associated with Christ's lineage. So Abram/Abraham had two sons(posterity pathways); one(Ishmael) representing his own efforts with Hagar, the other one(Isaac) an unearned gift from God through Sarah. The gift from God had two sons; one(Esau) believed his birthright had the worldly practical value of a meal, the other one(Jacob) desired the birthright for its spiritual significance. One(Esau) was swindled of his rightful blessing, while the swindler was forced to leave the promised land. Before the swindler could return to the promised land he had to wrestle with God. Jacob chose not to submit to God and thus returned to the promised land blessed, crippled, and with a new name. How would he have crossed over to the promised land had he submitted to God? My guess is blessed, healthy or healed, and still with the new name of Israel. So here we have two types of Israel; defiant and crippled vs submissive and vigorous, today representing Judaism and Christianity respectively.

Thank you! I never got the idea of Jacob wrestling with God. Now it makes sense to me.
Could we say, Israel as being those of OT works (Moses the mediator) and the NT saved by grace/faith Jews (and us), Jesus the mediator?

 

[Eugene]

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Who is Israel? Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. In the dispersion were Jacob and Israel.

There are certain ones are sealed in Revelation 7:4. “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” Could we at least consider these to be of Israel and be saved?

 

[jasoncran]

Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Who is Israel? Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. In the dispersion were Jacob and Israel.

There are certain ones are sealed in Revelation 7:4. “And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.” Could we at least consider these to be of Israel and be saved?

the jews today don't know what tribe they are. if they did , I would be the first to hear. there is no genetics test for what tribe as we have no base to test from. is there graves of Benjamin and Judah to exume to compare? or the other ten? the jews today are compared to the jews who never left. believe it or not the jews weren't removed from the entire land of isreal. there were jews in Nazareth who remained and never left the land. it is their descendents who laid claim to the nation of isreal. not the Ashkenazim or Sephardic or any other jews.

 

[Chopper]

Wow, I want to compliment you all for the great information, or should I say teachings, on Israel and its people. For some strange reason, I did not receive any alerts on this thread that I started. Sinthesis and Jason, I can't express how delighted I am to read your expert posts. As an Irish gentile, I now so little about Israel's history and people, other than what is exposed to me through the Scriptures. Deb, thank you so much for asking those questions, the answers just blew my mind. Eugene, thank you for your question. I almost forgot why I started this thread. You started with Romans 11:26 "All Israel will be saved". OK you blessed professors of Jewish mysteries, the Scripture says "all Israel will be saved". Does that mean those who are alive at the Christ's second coming? From Eugene's post I know that 144,000 will be saved, it seems to me that so many of Israel's people will die during Jacob's Trouble and what about them? Will any who have died be saved? "All Israel will be saved" does that mean "all" from Abraham forward? or just those alive at Jesus' Coming.

 

[Eugene]

the jews today don't know what tribe they are. if they did , I would be the first to hear.

Thankfully God is not dependent upon man to know His own, and I have no need to identify those 144,000. Abraham believed God and it was imputed unto him for righteousness. Who are the Abraham's of today or tomorrow that do the will of God for it will be God giving them a heart to believe. It is them that will be Israel saved, and during the millennium leading multitudes into practical fellowship with our Savior.

Jer 24:6 For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.
Jer 24:7 And I will give them an heart to know me, that I am the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.

 

[reba]

How can you Chopper be a Child of the King and a gentile at the same time?

 

[Chopper]

How can you Chopper be a Child of the King and a gentile at the same time?

You got me! So am I a Kingtile?

 

[reba]

Gentiles are heathens we are children of the King... IMO calling our self's gentiles widens the gap ( in our minds) between the saints of old and His body.... Very clearly God says we are one in Christ

 

[Chopper]

Gentiles are heathens we are children of the King... IMO calling our self's gentiles widens the gap ( in our minds) between the saints of old and His body.... Very clearly God says we are one in Christ

OK Mom, I deserved that spanking! I'll remember that.

 

[reba]

you are older then me sheesh

sorry Chopper .... Guess i have 2 pet peeves :

one
folks putting words in the Scriptures to fit mans theology .... like the word antichrist is not found in Dan or in The Revelation
another is calling the people of God heathen /gentiles

For me this was a big step out of scofield/despinsationalism

 

[Chopper]

you are older then me sheesh

sorry Chopper .... Guess i have 2 pet peeves :

one
folks putting words in the Scriptures to fit mans theology .... like the word antichrist is not found in Dan or in The Revelation
another is calling the people of God heathen /gentiles

For me this was a big step out of scofield/despinsationalism

Ha, Ha, you crack me up! You know, I have never really thought about that side of being a child of the King. When I went to Bible College, my bible was the "New Scofield Reference Edition", it fit right in with the theology of the College. It is so marked up that It's hard to read it now. I hadn't thought of breaking out of its influence, but you are right, it does leave an impression....Thank you.

 

[Sandy Zalecki]

I think I will wait until someone who is Jewish comments on this thread. There are so many different classes of Jewish people, Orthodox, and so on. Perhaps Jasoncran could shed some light on this. Your quote of Gal. 3:28, in context is, in Salvation there is no classification, we are all one in Christ. The classification comes before Salvation.

There is only one Gospel! Salvation in no other than Christ Jesus!

Paul says, about my text, is a mystery. There is a "remnant" of Jewish believers today. Gal. 3:28 says we are all one. The remaining people of Israel are not saved and that is where my thread has its importance.

I have to be careful when I talk about this scripture because so many people think about it in a different way than I do. First, who is a true Israelite? All the records of the 10 Northern tribes were destroyed when they were taken over in 721 B.C. Only the records of the tribe of Judah survived and they were destroyed in 70 A.D. when Rome destroyed the Temple. There has been centuries of intermarriage, destruction, and conversion. Some people are converted Jews. Do they count? I am a grafted in Jew. Obviously, I believe, Paul isn't talking about every Jew on the planet being saved all at once. That would not be fair to the Jewish people that are already dead. And is the Lord going to stop dealing with the Gentiles when "the fullness of the Gentiles has come in." I think this passage is saying they have the same chance as we do of being saved. They have been partially blinded to give the Gentiles and chance to receive the Gospel. If the Jews were all saved the Gospel would never have gone to the Gentile nations.

 

[jasoncran]

Eugene? what will the levites do then? a levite has NO land promise. he is wherever what tribe gives him land. ONLY the sons(no women allowed to preach, teach the torah) of zadok can be priests. how can that be after the cross? pre ad 70 the tribes knew each other and all records were kept the bible mentions a women of asher being a prophetess.