Bible Study All Israel Will Be Saved.

[jasoncran]

Wow, I want to compliment you all for the great information, or should I say teachings, on Israel and its people. For some strange reason, I did not receive any alerts on this thread that I started. Sinthesis and Jason, I can't express how delighted I am to read your expert posts. As an Irish gentile, I now so little about Israel's history and people, other than what is exposed to me through the Scriptures. Deb, thank you so much for asking those questions, the answers just blew my mind. Eugene, thank you for your question. I almost forgot why I started this thread. You started with Romans 11:26 "All Israel will be saved". OK you blessed professors of Jewish mysteries, the Scripture says "all Israel will be saved". Does that mean those who are alive at the Christ's second coming? From Eugene's post I know that 144,000 will be saved, it seems to me that so many of Israel's people will die during Jacob's Trouble and what about them? Will any who have died be saved? "All Israel will be saved" does that mean "all" from Abraham forward? or just those alive at Jesus' Coming.

to this I say, read james one, its address to the 12 tribes of isreal. if the early church didn't know whom they were and where why did james write that? and why does he then speak like and old testament writer quoting the torah if it was just the goy?

 

[Sinthesis]

You got me! So am I a Kingtile?

Kingtile? Clever!

 

[jasoncran]

Kingtile? Clever!

lol what about a Klingon.

 

[Sinthesis]

Gentiles are heathens we are children of the King... IMO calling our self's gentiles widens the gap ( in our minds) between the saints of old and His body.... Very clearly God says we are one in Christ

Bodily genetic Gentiles, yet adopted by Jesus into spiritual Israel. Our spiritual heritage is more important than our 'birth' heritage. That is why we are we are 'reborn'.

Jhn 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

 

[Sinthesis]

Thank you! I never got the idea of Jacob wrestling with God. Now it makes sense to me.
Could we say, Israel as being those of OT works (Moses the mediator) and the NT saved by grace/faith Jews (and us), Jesus the mediator?

That is one useful way of contrasting the covenant eras. However Moses the mediator is unable to save us; only Jesus can save. So, when it comes to salvation and Israel, those who comprise Israel have to be defined in relation to Christ. The word 'Israel' means 'God prevails', so I believe we should consider that the only 'True Israel' is the person of Christ, as in 'He who prevails over sin and death as only God ever could'. All Israel would then be the 'household' of Christ. This would include both the servants of God, and the adopted sons of God.

 

[Chopper]

to this I say, read james one, its address to the 12 tribes of isreal. if the early church didn't know whom they were and where why did james write that? and why does he then speak like and old testament writer quoting the torah if it was just the goy?

OK, identify goy. Boy, am I learning Jewish stuff! I love it.

 

[Chopper]

lol what about a Klingon.

Ha, Ha, You also crack me up!!

 

[Eugene]

Eugene? what will the levites do then? a levite has NO land promise. he is wherever what tribe gives him land. ONLY the sons(no women allowed to preach, teach the torah) of zadok can be priests. how can that be after the cross? pre ad 70 the tribes knew each other and all records were kept the bible mentions a women of asher being a prophetess.

Hi Brother Jason. I have no idea and neither does others. In Rev 14:3 I can read what the Lord reveals of the 144,000 and that they are redeemed from the earth (They are in heaven at a time later than the 24 elders and 4 Living ones for they sing a song before them). In Revelation 14:4 they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits (These are firstfruits; what are others?) unto God and to the Lamb. They are in heaven; will they need land deeded to them?

God has named the tribes which have changed the ranking of the tribes from the original ephods in order of birth to them of the breastplate of Judgment, and likely since there is here another ranking further judgment is inferred. E.g., Gen 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

Dan is not included, and notice also that Joseph is returned, but Ephraim is missing in Revelation Chapter Seven. In Rev 7:4 God says Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. It must be that if these other tribes are not mentioned they no longer are a portion with Israel.

 

[jasoncran]

if you believe that all after revalation is in the future of us, then why do not teach jesus has come to reign and isn't born yet? per revalation 12.i believe the tribes mentioned were sealed and are dead and awaiting the body that we will all get. my county has more people in it then 144,000 given a few more years, we are smaller then modern or ancient isreal. if 144k is to occupy the land only it wont be even noticed.

 

[jasoncran]

OK, identify goy. Boy, am I learning Jewish stuff! I love it.

gentiles or nations. those outside the Hebrew nation.

 

[jasoncran]

chopper you remind me of a messianic jew that I know here and has moved back to nj.

 

[Chopper]

chopper you remind me of a messianic jew that I know here and has moved back to nj.

I hope he's a nice guy.

 

[jasoncran]

of course

 

[Chopper]

Bodily genetic Gentiles, yet adopted by Jesus into spiritual Israel. Our spiritual heritage is more important than our 'birth' heritage. That is why we are we are 'reborn'.

Jhn 6:63

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

I like that. I certainly need to think of myself as a child of God instead of who I used to be. So I thank you, Reba and Jason for your instruction. All my Christian life, I have had to battle pride. When I got saved I owned a very successful printing company. The success went to my head. I got saved and left my business to my partner. Bible College studies came easy to me and the churches that I was the pastor grew nicely. Pride? Yep! I had enough for several people and had to rebuke myself on many occasions. Once, one of my deacons told me that I had too much pride. He was the only one who ever said that. Boy, did I spend some time on my knees. God has been good to me, and I have had a hard time with pride. I suppose I still do.

 

[reba]

Pro_16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Some folks are smart enough to fall to their knees little Pentecostal shout there

 

[jasoncran]

I like that. I certainly need to think of myself as a child of God instead of who I used to be. So I thank you, Reba and Jason for your instruction. All my Christian life, I have had to battle pride. When I got saved I owned a very successful printing company. The success went to my head. I got saved and left my business to my partner. Bible College studies came easy to me and the churches that I was the pastor grew nicely. Pride? Yep! I had enough for several people and had to rebuke myself on many occasions. Once, one of my deacons told me that I had too much pride. He was the only one who ever said that. Boy, did I spend some time on my knees. God has been good to me, and I have had a hard time with pride. I suppose I still do.

that is why I don't get the idea of a modern jewish return in prophecy. I even told an elder of this conversation. he said its hard to find answers on that. the twelve tribes and he was a theologian who taught at liberty. he is no chump.

 

[Chopper]

Pro_16:18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Some folks are smart enough to fall to their knees little Pentecostal shout there

GO GIRL, Amen Sister! I have had to learn the lessons of pride, the hard way at times. After the Holy Spirit came on me in 1990, I became a different person. I was success driven, because of my business background, I became love driven. God took away some things in my heart that were hindering His work through me. After that experience, people said that I was different. Praise Jesus. I just did a little Bapticostal shouting myself.

 

[reba]

see, you fell to your knees :amen

 

[Deborah13]

That is one useful way of contrasting the covenant eras. However Moses the mediator is unable to save us; only Jesus can save. So, when it comes to salvation and Israel, those who comprise Israel have to be defined in relation to Christ. The word 'Israel' means 'God prevails', so I believe we should consider that the only 'True Israel' is the person of Christ, as in 'He who prevails over sin and death as only God ever could'. All Israel would then be the 'household' of Christ. This would include both the servants of God, and the adopted sons of God.

Yes, I believe that too. Jesus, is the one Seed of Abraham and all believers are, in Jesus.
I can see how this would be difficult for the Jews to receive. I think on one hand it would be harder for a Jew to receive Christ because of their earlier teachings but at the same time they had/have the OT scriptures which bore witness of Him. I am even referring to the Jews of today that are still faithful to their religion.
I've been watching some debates between two Jews, Dr. Michael Brown who is a Jewish convert to Christ and different rabbis. I'm learning a lot of scripture from the OT and the Jewish perspective.

 

[Dan00]

Hi Brother Jason. I have no idea and neither does others. In Rev 14:3 I can read what the Lord reveals of the 144,000 and that they are redeemed from the earth (They are in heaven at a time later than the 24 elders and 4 Living ones for they sing a song before them). In Revelation 14:4 they follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits (These are firstfruits; what are others?) unto God and to the Lamb. They are in heaven; will they need land deeded to them?
.

Hi, Eugene,

I researched the 144,000, and I came up with the same conclusion as you: that they are in heaven, standing on the heavenly mount Sion, where the heavenly Jerusalem is located, which is the Church.

But who are they? If they were redeemed from among men, and are now in heaven, it would seem they were those from the first resurrection. Let's elaborate.

Paul used the term “firstfruits” in referring to the resurrected Christ:

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.” (1 Cor 15:20)

“But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” (1 Cor 15:23)

Paul makes no mention of anyone else being resurrected with Christ, but there is this event that occurred after the veil of the temple was rent:

"And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matthew 27:52-53)

I never found out what happened to them--whether they ascended into heaven, went back to their graves, nothing. Could they be those of the first resurrection? No, because Jesus promised the first resurrection to the apostles. I'll explain.

Paul used the term firstfruits in reference to being among the first to receive the Holy Spirit, while anticipating the first resurrection and redemption:

“For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.” (Romans 8:22-23)

And James, speaking to the scattered twelve tribes, used the term:

“Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” (James 1:18)


But those were yet to be redeemed. If there were no other resurrections prior to the first resurrection, then the 144,000 on mount Sion are those which were redeemed at the first resurrection, and consisted of at least the apostles and the early Church:

"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)

Note the first clause regarding thrones and judgement. If you recall, Jesus gave future judgement over the twelve tribes to the twelve apostles:

"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28)

Therefore, the apostles were part of the first resurrection. But Paul implied that the saints would judge the world:

"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? . . ." (1 Cor 6:2)

All the earliest Christians were considered to be saints, so there is no contradiction. We also know there were at least 10,000 saints that served the Lord before the days of Christ:

"And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mountParan, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them." (Deuteronomy 33:2)

And I would not rule out the patriarchs, prophets and other men of faith from the Old Testament days that were sleeping:

"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 8:11-12)

Taken together with many of the early Christians, we can now speculate, with some degree of accuracy, who took part in the first resurrection. The following verse explains the significance of being part of the first resurrection:

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)

They become the priests who serve the high priest, Jesus Christ, who serves as high priest from his throne, which is heaven.:

"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven . . ." (Psalms 11:4)

". . . Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." (Zechariah 6:12-13)

David and Zechariah together confirm that Jesus' throne is in heaven, and that Jesus both rules and serves as high priest from his heavenly throne. This is his holy temple:

"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)

The scriptures imply the apostles judge the twelve tribes of Israel, while the other saints judge everyone else. Jesus judges no man (John 8:15.)

It is possible the 144,000 included all the remnant of the children of Israel (the elect or "just" ones) that the Lord, apostles and prophets spoke of, and the apostles were sent to witness to (the "lost sheep".) If that is true, then all Israel was saved:

“And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob” (Rom 11:26)

While keeping in mind these two important explanations:

“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:”

“For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.” (Rom 2:28-29)

Recall that Jesus and John the Baptist both discounted those who claimed lineage from Abraham merely by genealogy or race (Matt 3:9; John 8:39-44.) To be a descendant of Abraham requires the faith of Abraham:

“Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.” (Gal 3:7)

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.” (Romans 4:13)

And that promise went exclusively to Christ:

“Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.” (Gal 3:16)

And to the followers of Christ:

“And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” (Gal 3:29)

" I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24)

That last verse clinched the "remnant" question for me. I do not believe that he would leave hanging those he was specifically sent unto. Therefore, I believe the remnant are part of the 144,000 servants of Christ in the Holy Temple, in the Holy City, on heavenly mount Sion.

Dan