Morning Dan. I've got to ask that if this has all occurred why they were not sealed until until chapter seven of Revelation all of Israel, and then they're not caught up until a great multitude come out of great tribulation of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne. And then in Rev 14:1 the 144,000 have already been caught up, the firstfruits (And yes I'll say it; all of Israel) unto God and to the Lamb, but they here again do not precede the four beasts, and the elders again out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation already with Jesus prior to the tribulation.
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Bible Study All Israel Will Be Saved.
- Thread starter Chopper
- Start date
Hi, Eugene,
I have thought about the "great multitude," as well. Notice they came "out of great tribulation" and "serve him day and night in his temple." Those in the first resurrection have these characteristics:
1) they included the apostles (recall the "thrones and judgement")
2) they included those who had been beheaded for the word of God and had not "worshipped the beast," etc. (which, by the way, included every righteous person who had died prior to the "beast's arrival")
3) they serve as priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
That sounds like it could be the "great multitude." The 144,000 had these characteristics:
1) the servants of our God who were sealed.
2) they sang a new song before the throne.
3) they were not defiled with "women," whatever that means since marriage is honorable in all.
4) they were the firstfruits redeemed from among men.
After they were sealed, John saw a great multitude stand before the throne, etc..
I have concluded the "great multitude" is the "144,000." Assume you were at a Michigan-Ohio State football game or the Daytona 500. You would see a "great multitude" of over 100,000 people, as John saw, and you would have no clue how many were in attendance until you read it in the papers.
Another thing: the great multitude came out of "great tribulation" which I believe occurred in 66-70 A.D., and were most likely the "elect" Jesus had sent his angels to gather together (Matt 24:31) They had the same characteristics:
1) they were from all nations (or, as in Matthew, from "the four winds",) which in those days would have meant the Roman Empire (see Luke 2:1.)
2) they were from all "kindreds," which is another word for "tribes," so they would be from the scattered tribes.
Recall from my previous post that Jesus was only sent for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
These verses are similar:
" . . . then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt 24:30-31)
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.." (Luke 21:27-28)
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:26-27)
Notice "gathering the elect" and "redemption" coincide. Also notice his elect was gathered from the earth and the heaven (which I assume to mean those "sleeping" were included.)
All three passages were followed by a statement like this:
" Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled."
Which means it occurred during the generation of the apostles, who Jesus was speaking to at the time.
His "Coming" in the gospels is similar to this:
"Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds [tribes] of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen." (Revelation 1:7)
Note the Roman soldiers that pierced him also saw him.
For the record, both Josephus and Tacitus wrote about a strange phenomena during the war of an "army" moving around in the clouds over Jerusalem. There were other very strange phenomena, as well. I really don't know what to think about that, except that Jesus wrote there would be some strange visual clues.
My interpretation of the date, timing and occupants of the first resurrection explains the following oddity:
Moses prophesied in some detail in Deuteronomy 28 about the destruction of Jerusalem; and his prophesy occurred approximately 1500 years prior to the event. Additionally, nearly all, if not all the other prophets foretold the destruction of Jerusalem in one manner or another.
Yet, outside the references to the destruction of Jerusalem by Christ in the Gospels, there is hardly a whisper about it after Christ's resurrection, either before the destruction or for many years after. This was the most significant, "man-caused" event in the history of the world up until that time--even until this time--and there was nothing written about it by the apostles or followers of Christ? Not even a, "See, I told you so!"? Not even by St. John? Nothing? What happened to the early Christians--those who had received the Holy Ghost on the Day of Pentecost?
Now, let's assume that John did NOT write the Revelation in A.D. 90-95 (as one person, Irenaeus, and a "bandwagon" implied;) but that John wrote the book earlier during the reign of Nero (as other historians have implied) which was prior to the destruction of Jerusalem.
Now, everything makes sense! Instead of a book that can and does mean anything and everything, depending solely on the imagination of the reader or interpreter; we have a book that provided both general and specific warnings to some of the early Christian Churches in the Roman Empire just prior to the destruction of Jerusalem, which would comply with the angel's instructions to John:
"What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea." (Revelation 1:11)
Therefore, it is reasonable to believe that John was prophesying the destruction of Jerusalem when writing about Babylon the Great. If that be the case, the 144,000 were standing on the heavenly mount Sion in, or just prior to, 70 A.D., shortly after their redemption, which was the first resurrection (or, if you prefer, the Rapture.)
That is not so far fetched if we take the words of Jesus literally:
"And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other . . . Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matthew 24:30-31, 34)
Dan
Dear Brother Dan, to me your account seems to be laced with so much supposition to fit Preterist theology, everything including the order of events, and the separate coharts seen by John arriving before the throne must be combined; e.g., the great multitude and the 144,000.
Christ, the firstfruits of God’s labor is the feast of the harvest which Jesus brought into the house of the LORD. 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. When were these presented to God? Eph 4:8 When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive.
Then Jesus presents us according to James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues.
Lastly out of the tribulation we see the 144,000, the firstfruits (Rev 14:4) of Israel redeemed from among men (Mankind - human beings), being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. We just cannot mix the context and come out right; hopefully I haven’t.
My thoughts.
Sorry dear sister, but I was logged in, taken to this post of yours, wrote a reply, and found I had to log in again only to then find you post was four pages deep. After my effort I am determined to go ahead with this post to your question above.
Oranges and apples. Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Notice the “In part” of that scripture. The church, the body of Christ is not subject to division being made of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues. With the removal of the church a new work begins with Israel. Not only is the fullness of the Gentiles complete, but the times of them also.
I personally believe the 144,000 will be the great evangelists testifying to them at that time. All Israel will be saved means exactly that. What all is involved in consequence and judgment of a Christ rejecting people remains to be seen, but God is not going to be denied or defeated in His quest for their return to Him. The criterion? Belief!
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Eugene,
I see you like to throw around the Preterist label, as if that is bad thing. Personally, I sorta like the Preterist label you have assigned me, and I think I will claim it as my own. I will vehemently object if you try to label me a "futurist" or, worse, a "dispensationalist."
You questions are not clear. Will you please expound on the following from your questions so I can figure out where you are coming from. Please cite lines directly from my previous reply when explaining these (now, and in the future,) and it will help me to understand what you are writing and to form an appropriate response. Expound these, please:
"the separate coharts seen by John" (Are you referring to the Heavenly Host that are there before Christ arrives?)
"Eph 4:8 When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive." (How do you interpret "captivity captive", and what does that have to do with the firstfruits?)
"We just cannot mix the context and come out right" (?)
Two things you asked were clear, so I will answer:
>>>"Then Jesus presents us according to James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues."<<<
Your supposition, that "Jesus presents us," is invalid. If you read the all of James, and stay within context, it perfect makes sense. James was writing to the scattered twelve tribes of his day, not to "us." The entire book of James is like a single chapter in that it has the same target audience and context:
"James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting." (James 1:1)
James is warning the twelve tribes against the temptation of lust, of wavering faith, on treatment of the poor, to bridle the tongue, and to follow the commandments generally, among other things. In verse 18, he was talking about the firstfruits of the Holy Spirit, not the resurrection. This is the context:
"Do not err, my beloved brethren. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:" (James 1:16-19)
James does refer to what appears to be the sins of the leadership of Jerusalem. and their destiny:
"Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you." (James 5:5-6)
And of the soon-to-come resurrection (in context and with supporting scripture: )
"Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh." (James 5:7)
". . .Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Matthew 10:23)
For the record, In chapter 1, James made one of my all-time favorite quotes:
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." (James 1:27)
Now to the next question:
>>> 1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. When were these presented to God?<<<
I believe your supposition here is invalid, as well. There were no "these" that I am aware of. Christ, who was the "firstfruits," was presented to God in Revelation 5:6, and no one else. Recall the 144,000 were not the firstfruits "to God," but to "God and the Lamb."
". . . These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb." (Rev 14:4)
Therefore, the Lamb was already on His throne when the 144,000 were redeemed. The others came out of great tribulation, so we can rule them out. Therefore, I don't know who "these" are, nor where "these" are even mentioned in the scripture, except for a brief mention of some unknown saints that came out of their graves in Matthew 27:52-53 when the veil of the temple was rent; and I don't know what happened to them. I suspect they became part of the first resurrection, and then sat in judgement:
"Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? . . ." (1 Cor 6:2)
Thanks,
Dan
I believe both.I see you like to throw around the Preterist label
I will vehemently object if you try to label me a "futurist" or, worse, a "dispensationalist."
Sorry Dan; it's the best I could come up with and I say uncle or give up. I reckon I fit the cliché; a person convinced against their will is of the same opinion still. Thanks anyway.
Josephus' Account - http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/c/chariots-in-clouds.html
"I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable. A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary."
I agree with you Josephus; I dismiss it as your imagination.[/quote]
Hi, Eugene. You wrote:
"All Israel will be saved means exactly that."
I agree 100%. What does this mean?
". . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
And please explain this passage in the context of "all Israel."
"Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth." (Romans 9:27-28)
And what about those who refused Christ before death?
"For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people." (Acts 3:22-23)
Is there a time limit on that, that is, can they hear the prophet (Jesus) from the grave and be saved?
"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." (John 5:28-29)
Thanks,
Dan
Brother Chopper, I’ll just paste an excerpt from the study of Roman presented by Grace & Glory at www.gracegod.com
http://www.gracegod.com/Study Books/Romans1.pdf
As to your question as to whether that covers any of Israel who have already perished? Especially because of the mention of banishment of ungodliness from Jacob, I do not believe so because even those during the time of the antichrist, taking the number of the beast; Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God
Then the Apostle lets us into a secret, "that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in" - 11:25. This verse is very little understood, though it appears so simple. The meaning is that there is a remnant from Jews and Gentiles gathered in this age - the Body of Christ, or the Church, as they are called. When that determined number is made up, then Israel's blindness as a nation will begin to be lifted. The veil over their eyes will be taken away. All nations will share in their blessings. Only a few, comparatively speaking, are taken out from among them for the Name of Christ; but when the nation, Israel, will be the light of the world, then as the prophet assures them, "The Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising" - Isaiah 60:3. The nation is still "beloved for the fathers' sakes" - 11:28.
"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob" - 11:26 - because God made a covenant to this effect with Abraham, and confirmed it to Isaac and Jacob. "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" - 11:29. "Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? Yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee - Isaiah 49:15
Blessings in Christ Jesus.
Sorry Dan, I have no idea the what you are asking concerning a seemingly second chance for those having not received Christ; I've heard something like that in Armstrongism. (Herbert Armstrong and The Worldwide Church of God)
[/quote]
Brother Eugene:
I am disappointed you did not answer any of my questions, from any of my posts. I answered a lot of yours. I truly would like to find out what you believe. Currently I have no clue.
Above, you misquoted Josephus, and then you discredited him based on the context of your misquote. I would expect that from the mainstream media, Tommy Ice, or Hal Lindsey; but from a Christian forum moderator? I assume it was just carelessness on your part.
This is what Josephus actually wrote, as translated by William Whiston, 1737:
"Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day
of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities." [Wars of the Jews, VI.5.3]
I have a two volume set by Josephus by a different translator, Robert Traill, 1851:
“What I am about to relate would, I conceive, be deemed a mere fable, had it not been related by eye-witnesses, and attended by calamities commensurate with such portents. Before sunset were seen around the whole country chariots poised in the air, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and investing the cities.” (Volume II, Chapter VI, p.197.)
Different translator, same eyewitness indicators.
Josephus is also found online in many, many places, including the Preterist web page you provided the link to. The quote on that website nearest in content to your quote is:
"A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.”
The only two quotes containing the word "imaginary" have a different first sentence that your quote. The only two quotes that use the word "fable" also contain an eyewitness clause (all contain eyewitness clauses.)
Surprisingly, the only way I could recreate your quote was to use pieces from different quotes and patch them together.
I am certain it is just an oversight on your part and you would never deliberately try to smear one of the greatest Jewish historians of all time.
While we are at it, this is what Tacitus (a Roman Historian) stated about the same event:
"There had happened omens and prodigies, things which that nation so addicted to superstition, but so averse to the Gods, hold it unlawful to expiate either by vows or victims. Hosts were seen to encounter in the air, refulgent arms appeared; and, by a blaze of lightning shooting suddenly from the clouds, all the Temple was illuminated. The great gates of the Temple were of themselves in an instant thrown open, and a voice more than human heard to declare, that “the Gods were going to depart.”
Dan
Actually I was quoting Jesus, seeking some discussion on the many last-day quotes in John, and how easily they can be combined. Do you have any comment on the Words I quoted?
Wasn't Armstrong some sort of Dispensationalist? I really do not know much about him, except that he is on my long list of False Prophets.
Dan
Eugene,
I mistakenly typed an incorrect response to your first sentence, assuming I was responding to another thread. What I meant to say was:
Recall your declaration was, "All Israel will be saved means exactly that."
Please explain this passage in the context of "all Israel."
". . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:"
Thanks,
Dan
I hope, for the sake of our brethren, they preach the Cross.
Rom 9:6 . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. Some are raised before the last day.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
What is the work of God? John 6:29 . . This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
turnorburn
Member
That's right Eugene:
Rom 9:6 . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
We were grafted in.. and have become heirs..
tob
Rom 9:6 . . they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
We were grafted in.. and have become heirs..
tob
In REV the children are described as those who obey Gods commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
The worshipers Gods seeks are those who worship in Spirit and in truth.
John 4
19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain,but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”
26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”
jasoncran
Member
if they do then they are no jews, but Christians, all those chapters about isreal in the nt allude to a bunch of saved Hebrews in the church. paul was of Benjamin and where is he now? with the church, yet he knew his lineage and I be he could recite his entire line from dad to back to Jacob. no Hebrew can do that today.
Chopper
Member
Thank you very much for the explanation. I receive it from you as truth. When I get a chance, I'll look at those sites you suggested.
How does this fit in:
"Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ." (Galatians 3:16)
Thanks,
Dan