Allah is not the God of Abraham

[KumiOri]

Assalamu Alikum goodfriday.

I just arrived at this website and this topic really interested me but frankly I don't have the patience to read thru much of whats been posted here, forgive me.

I like to think I have a rudimentary knowledge of the Tanakh, New Testement, Hadith and the Noble Quran. Unfortunetly my writing skills are worse. May I ask what do you understand of the relationship between Allah and Yahushua Hammashiach? Now I suppose this next question could be answered based on the answer to the first, but is it your belief that Allah of Islam and the God of Israel are the same?

Lets not get into spelling bees or semantics I think this a matter of doctrine and of the heart.

Peace

Kumi Ori

 

[seekandlisten]

Assalamu Alikum goodfriday.

I just arrived at this website and this topic really interested me but frankly I don't have the patience to read thru much of whats been posted here, forgive me.

I like to think I have a rudimentary knowledge of the Tanakh, New Testement, Hadith and the Noble Quran. Unfortunetly my writing skills are worse. May I ask what do you understand of the relationship between Allah and Yahushua Hammashiach? Now I suppose this next question could be answered based on the answer to the first, but is it your belief that Allah of Islam and the God of Israel are the same?

Lets not get into spelling bees or semantics I think this a matter of doctrine and of the heart.

Peace

Kumi Ori

Hi there Kumri and goodfriday,
I am interested in your thoughts on this subject. In regards to your question of the relationship between Allah/God and Yahushua Hammashiach/Jesus Christ I believe Jesus to be the firstborn of the 'Sons of God'. I believe he was 'anointed' to become the Christ. That is just my basic belief so I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Allah of Islam and the God of Israel are the same 'being' it their 'descriptions' in their respective 'religions' that differ. I look forward to your thoughts.

Regards

 

[JudaicChristian]

Hi there Kumri and goodfriday,
I am interested in your thoughts on this subject. In regards to your question of the relationship between Allah/God and Yahushua Hammashiach/Jesus Christ I believe Jesus to be the firstborn of the 'Sons of God'. I believe he was 'anointed' to become the Christ. That is just my basic belief so I am interested in hearing your thoughts on this. Allah of Islam and the God of Israel are the same 'being' it their 'descriptions' in their respective 'religions' that differ. I look forward to your thoughts.

Regards

Everyone knows that Islamist believe that Allah is the God of Abraham. But is that the truth? How can that be the truth when Allah was worshipped as a Pagan god by the Arabs, long before Mohammad was born. The proof is cut into stone. The Moabite Stone, when the Arabs knew the God of Abraham as Yahwah.

 

[seekandlisten]

Everyone knows that Islamist believe that Allah is the God of Abraham. But is that the truth? How can that be the truth when Allah was worshipped as a Pagan god by the Arabs, long before Mohammad was born. The proof is cut into stone. The Moabite Stone, when the Arabs knew the God of Abraham as Yahwah.

Well judging from the various threads you've commented in or started it's plain to see you don't like Islam, but do a little research into your 'facts'. I'm not an expert on Islam but a few searches and a little reading would bring you to the knowledge that Allah of Islam and God of Israel are the same 'deity'. Goodfriday seems to know quite a bit yet you ignore him and anyone else for reasons unknown. You keep talking about 'pagan' worship of Allah which if you did a little research you would find that Muhammed put an end to that and restored the worship of 'One God'. It's like saying the Catholics worship a different 'God' than the Protestants, it just doesn't work. Here is the first paragraph from the most simple search from wikipedia to get you started:

"Allah (Arabic: ?????, All?h, Turkish: Allah, IPA: [?al????h] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God.[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".[1][2][3] The term was also used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia.[4]"

Obviously wikipedia isn't the best source but you can start your search there.

Regards

 

[JudaicChristian]

Well judging from the various threads you've commented in or started it's plain to see you don't like Islam, but do a little research into your 'facts'. I'm not an expert on Islam but a few searches and a little reading would bring you to the knowledge that Allah of Islam and God of Israel are the same 'deity'. Goodfriday seems to know quite a bit yet you ignore him and anyone else for reasons unknown. You keep talking about 'pagan' worship of Allah which if you did a little research you would find that Muhammed put an end to that and restored the worship of 'One God'. It's like saying the Catholics worship a different 'God' than the Protestants, it just doesn't work. Here is the first paragraph from the most simple search from wikipedia to get you started:

"Allah (Arabic: ?????, All?h, Turkish: Allah, IPA: [?al????h] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God.[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".[1][2][3] The term was also used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia.[4]"

Obviously wikipedia isn't the best source but you can start your search there.

Regards

Any such statements do not agree with Archaeology before Mohammad's time. And that is my point, the lie has been made the truth. I would complain to any Christians who would make such an error also. The facts are carved in ancient stone and the cat is out of the bag. Yahwah and Allah are completely two different gods.

 

[seekandlisten]

Any such statements do not agree with Archaeology before Mohammad's time. And that is my point, the lie has been made the truth. I would complain to any Christians who would make such an error also. The facts are carved in ancient stone and the cat is out of the bag. Yahwah and Allah are completely two different gods.

Really?? Or is that the points raised showing they are the same 'God', which you disregard, are from sources not biased on 'proving' that Islam is a 'false religion' and 'Christianity' is the only one? A 'young earth' and 'literal six day creation' looks like the 'truth' too when I only browse the Creationist sources. Using the same line of reasoning you are using I could start going on that the 'God' of 'Christianity' is pagan too but such is not the case as I choose to look to various sources for information in my search for 'truth'.

Regards

 

[JudaicChristian]

Any such statements do not agree with Archaeology before Mohammad's time. And that is my point, the lie has been made the truth. I would complain to any Christians who would make such an error also. The facts are carved in ancient stone and the cat is out of the bag. Yahwah and Allah are completely two different gods.

Really?? Or is that the points raised showing they are the same 'God', which you disregard, are from sources not biased on 'proving' that Islam is a 'false religion' and 'Christianity' is the only one? A 'young earth' and 'literal six day creation' looks like the 'truth' too when I only browse the Creationist sources. Using the same line of reasoning you are using I could start going on that the 'God' of 'Christianity' is pagan too but such is not the case as I choose to look to various sources for information in my search for 'truth'.

Regards

The fact that any error can be found in Christianity is not the subject here. And not all Christians believe in a literal 6 day creation. Some understand those days to be epochs of time. That ancient Moabite Stone is a stone around the necks of Muslims. It is proof beyond any doubt that the Muslim scholars are in error. Error can be found with Christians, but Islam is a complete fabrication.

 

[seekandlisten]

The fact that any error can be found in Christianity is not the subject here. And not all Christians believe in a literal 6 day creation. Some understand those days to be epochs of time. That ancient Moabite Stone is a stone around the necks of Muslims. It is proof beyond any doubt that the Muslim scholars are in error. Error can be found with Christians, but Islam is a complete fabrication.

Do you read anything that anyone has posted in opposition to your stance? I know that the errors in Christianity are not the subject at hand but I used that to try and show you how supposed 'facts' can be used in error. What I mean here is, I can use the same method you are using to 'prove' that 'Christianity' is false and has pagan origins. Would this be 'beyond a doubt' truth? Well, when we weigh in 'evidence' from both sides we can make an educated decision now can't we. Are you a Muslim scholar? Judging from your responses I would assume not so I would have to question how reading a couple of articles 'qualifies' you as the expert over people who study all sorts of sources in understanding the religion? I'm no expert either but know enough to read sources from both sides of the argument and separate the 'fact' from 'fiction' by using some common sense. The 'creation' comments were to prove a point which I guess flew right by you. I did a search on this tie to the Moabite stone that you put forward and I found sources that 'support' your claim yet I also clued in that the 2 I looked at(the first 2 that come up on a search) were 'Christian' biased and out to 'prove' Islam false, the first source made sure to put 9/11 in the first sentence. Do you understand what I mean by biased sources yet? You can't 'prove beyond a doubt' when it's only one side of the story.

We could take it one step further and say that in our 'reality' and 'physical observances' 'God' and 'Allah' are both 'imaginary' as neither can be proved to exist so are we just arguing 'make-belief' here? I'm sure that we can agree we are not so let's start looking at the 'evidence' and we can clearly see by the majority point of view Allah of Islam is none other than the God of Israel and the only difference is the language, Arabic vs Hebrew. Are we moving forward yet or is this a lost cause?

 

[Aero_Hudson]

Well judging from the various threads you've commented in or started it's plain to see you don't like Islam, but do a little research into your 'facts'. I'm not an expert on Islam but a few searches and a little reading would bring you to the knowledge that Allah of Islam and God of Israel are the same 'deity'. Goodfriday seems to know quite a bit yet you ignore him and anyone else for reasons unknown. You keep talking about 'pagan' worship of Allah which if you did a little research you would find that Muhammed put an end to that and restored the worship of 'One God'. It's like saying the Catholics worship a different 'God' than the Protestants, it just doesn't work. Here is the first paragraph from the most simple search from wikipedia to get you started:

"Allah (Arabic: ?????, All?h, Turkish: Allah, IPA: [?al????h] ( listen)) is the standard Arabic word for God.[1] While the term is best known in the West for its use by Muslims as a reference to God, it is used by Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, in reference to "God".[1][2][3] The term was also used by pagan Meccans as a reference to the creator-god, possibly the supreme deity in pre-Islamic Arabia.[4]"

Obviously wikipedia isn't the best source but you can start your search there.

Regards

Any such statements do not agree with Archaeology before Mohammad's time. And that is my point, the lie has been made the truth. I would complain to any Christians who would make such an error also. The facts are carved in ancient stone and the cat is out of the bag. Yahwah and Allah are completely two different gods.

Let's make this simple...

Allah in arabic is nothing more than the formal moniker for "God". It is all semantics.

Now, if you want to argue that the Muslim God dictates a very different doctrine than the Judea-Christian God then you would be correct. However, Allah = God strictly from a translation standpoint.

 

[KumiOri]

Forgive me if I am wrong but if any of you are implying Allah is none other than the God of Yisrael I would have to strongly disagree.

We know according to the Noble Quran the diety of Islam has 99 names, Allah we are told is the greatest of these 99 names. It seems to me then that Allah is one of the names of the God of Islam. This idea seems to be re-enforced as I often hear many say there is no "God but Allah". Or as some here pointed out there is no deity (allah) but Allah. I would also bring to light that out of those 99 names there is not one mention or indication of Him ever making a direct claim to being the God of Yisrael. This is I think very important because proclaiming to be Adoni Elohei Yisrael most likely stop any arguement right here and now.

Who then is this god or deity called, among 98 other names, Allah.

Look to my signature in this post. I typed it in there in order to shine a light on the true nature of Islam and it's god/deity whose name is Allah. Do you understand what this god called Allah is saying to me? I am not frightened of it but I do see it for what it is. This inscription can be found on the underside of the Noble Sanctuary a.k.a. the Dome of the Rock. Similar wording can be found also in the Noble Quran and Hadith literature.

O People of the Book! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning God save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His Word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and His messengers, and say not 'Three' - Cease! (it is) better for you! - God is only One God. Far be it removed from His transcendent majesty that He should have a son. ... Whoso disbelieveth the revelations of God (will find that) lo! God is swift at reckoning!

Let me help you and others understand. The People of the Book refer to Jews and Christians. Pikthal I think translated this as "Oh you children of the Book". This is addressed to you to you who claim to be followers of Christ.

Do not proclaim anything except the truth now you are going to be told what the truth is according to Allah. Jesus was the son of Mary and only a prophet of God. This leads one to believe that Jesus was nothing more than a man a simple prophet. Do not say three commands you to deny the tri-unity of the Godhead, in Islam there is no God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, there is only Allah. Now we come to this Far be it from his glory that he should have a son. This flies directly in the face and foundation of Christianity Allah is commanding me to deny the Sonship and Deity of Christ.

What god then is this that has not begotten a son? He is to me a strange and false god whom I cannot follow. Reading deeper in hadith I find my punishement for such blasphemy can only lead to the removal of my head.

Islam even goes as far as denying the crucifixion

“That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-“ [Sura 4.157]

My God has Begotten a Son. Yahushua is the Only Begotten Son of El Yisrael He brings salvation to those who put their trust in Him. He is the Way the Truth and the Life no man comes to Father but by Him. Yahushua is my Passover Lamb he was crucified before the whole congregation. He died and rose again and now sits at the right hand of God the Father, the God of Yisrael my God, my Father.


Peace

Kumi Ori

 

[seekandlisten]

Hey KumiOri,

I have to admit I'm a little confused by your post. Correct me if I missed something here. You disagree that Allah of Islam is the God of Israel right? Allah is the God of Abraham right? as is the God of Israel.

Now when it comes to doctrine, Islam has their beliefs and Christianity and Judaism have their beliefs and they all vary as to the different aspects of this 'One God'. This doesn't change the fact that it is the same 'God'. Each 'religion' has there own 'interpretation' or 'idea' or 'concept' of 'Who' or 'What' 'God' is but that is all it is our, 'humans', attempt at explaining something we know nothing about other then speculation and observance. There is 'One God' over all, some call 'Him' Brahman, God the Father, Allah, Jesus, God the Son, Holy Spirit, Enlightenment, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva, and the list goes on. The point is they are all reference to the same 'thing', an unattainable 'God' so to speak.

Point being, there are many different 'doctrines' and each religion has their own set of beliefs but when you look into each religion and actually get to the 'heart' of each one you realize everyone is looking for the 'same thing.'

After looking over what I wrote it looks a little confusing but let me know what you think.

 

[KumiOri]

Let me clarify then, I completely disagree with anyone, not in anger mind you, who thinks this god named Allah is the same as the the God of Yisrael. The first and foremost evidence for me is in Allahs own words that he "begetteth not nor is he begotten". He tells me to deny the Sonship and Deity of Christ, he tells me to deny the crucifixtion and resurrection of Christ. All of these things are the very foundation of Christianity and Allah tells me to deny it?

I cannot not follow such a god.

 

[seekandlisten]

Let me clarify then, I completely disagree with anyone, not in anger mind you, who thinks this god named Allah is the same as the the God of Yisrael. The first and foremost evidence for me is in Allahs own words that he "begetteth not nor is he begotten". He tells me to deny the Sonship and Deity of Christ, he tells me to deny the crucifixtion and resurrection of Christ. All of these things are the very foundation of Christianity and Allah tells me to deny it?

I cannot not follow such a god.

Alright, I understand now. Allah didn't write the Qur'an. In fact Muhammed didn't even write the Qur'an, it was assembled after his death. In the 'zeal' of his followers to promote 'One God' rather than many 'gods', Muhammed's followers assemble the Qur'an after his death and that is why you will see differences in the 'teaching's' of Islam and Christianity. The 'God' however is still the same. I do not follow Islam as I don't agree with some of the 'doctrines' but I know that the 'doctrines' come from man not 'God/Allah'. For example, Islam teaches that it is the one true religion yet according to Muhammed's teaching from the Qur'an 2:62:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), - notice here that the part in parentheses was added by the translators

And those who are Jews,

And Christians,and Sabians

Any who believe in Allah and the Last Day,

And work righteousness,

Shall have their reward with their Lord;

On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

It would seem that Muhammed didn't discriminate between religions.

Anyways, I don't 'believe' in Islam, in fact I don't 'believe' in religion so we don't have a disagreement other than if you think one must be a part of at least one religion or that one religion is better than the rest. I believe simply in the 'truth' and that can be found in all religions. Don't take this to mean that I believe all religious beliefs are 'true' but that I can find the 'truth' contained in all sorts of places which include a lot of different religions.

cheers

 

[seekandlisten]

Something else I find interesting:

"...in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, ... and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,...all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD, our God, forever and ever."

(Micah 4:1-5).

I find it kind of odd that both prophets, Muhammed and Micah, seem to promote 'religious' tolerance yet the followers of both religions do not.

 

[KumiOri]

seekandlisten,

I have heard the Truth and I believe it. I do not hate anyone because of their beliefs though. I would only want them to come to the knowledge of Christ and be saved too. I would not pick a fight with anyone over this, nor am I to quarrel or condem. I am commanded to give no offense to neither Gentile, Jew or the Church of God. I have been called to be one thing and that is a witness for Him.

For anyone to call themselves a Christian and follow after strange doctrine ought to really re-consider what they are doing. The word Christian comes from the greek word Christianos that is to say 'follower of Christ'. There is only one Messiah whose Father is in Heaven, and it was not me who said this but Christ did, when He said I am the Way the Truth and the Life no man cometh unto the Father but by me. Their arguement is not with me as I didn't say He did.

There is good and evil in this world seekandlisten men who wish to do you harm and keep you from the truth in the name of tolerance. I pray one day you have desire to know and share the love of Christ with others.

 

[seekandlisten]

KumiOri,

Thank you for taking the time to share your point of view with me. I have no argument with what you believe, it is between the individual and 'God'. I will speak up when certain 'beliefs' are being misrepresented though. I agree with you that the only way to the Father is through Christ. I do not believe it is my position, or anyone's for that matter, to impose their beliefs on another. In the end there will be no denying the 'truth' when we stand before 'God'. In that day how we lived our life will be called into question and that is where my beliefs lie. I will admit my beliefs are complicated when trying to explain but mainly I believe in living in harmony with others as well as our environment and looking 'inward' when we judge not 'outward'. I like the way you post and enjoyed this conversation and maybe we can talk again sometime.

cheers

 

[KumiOri]

seekandlisten,

Using websters 1828 dictionary the word impose is somewhat intimidating.
To impose on, to deceive; to mislead by a trick or false pretense; vulgarly, to put upon. We are liable to be imposed on by others,and sometimes we impose on ourselves.

So seekandlisten I agree with you sir we do not impose the word of Christ on anyone, only share the truth of Messiah with everyone, be a witness for him speak the truth in love. Granted you may find certain people will still hate you for it and wish to do you harm no matter how humble you approach them. But thats ok our reward is in Heaven.

Furthermore ones search for the supreme being must at a minimum lead us to the Father of our Saviour Yahushua. And the tri-unity of the Godhead, God (Elohim), the Spirit of God (Ruach Elohim), and the Word of God (and God said...), are all involved in the creation of the universe. If they cannot make that claim for starters then they are likely false gods and dangerous. Some as we have just read about will try to make you deny that truth.

He was, He is, He will be, The Most High God


Peace

KumiOri

 

[JudaicChristian]

I'am a Non-Trin myself.

• Yahwah reveals His name to Moses

Exodus 3:13-15.
13 And Moses said to Elohiym, “Suppose I go to the siblings of the Israelites and say to them, 'The Elohiym of your forefathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?†(Elohiym means, “God of The Living.â€) It can also be translated as “god-s of the living†or “god-s of life;†for those who have life immortal.
14 And Elohiym said to Moses, “The Living that Lives. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'The Living has sent me to you.†(HaYah) in the ancient Semitic language means: The Living, or The Life.)
15 And Elohiym also said to Moses, “Say to the Israelites, 'Yahwah, the Elohiym of your forefathers; the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac and the Elohiym of Jacob has sent me to you.' That’s my name forever, the name by which I’m to be remembered, from generation to generationâ€

 

[JudaicChristian]

Something else I find interesting:

"...in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains, ... and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,...all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of the LORD, our God, forever and ever."

(Micah 4:1-5).

I find it kind of odd that both prophets, Muhammed and Micah, seem to promote 'religious' tolerance yet the followers of both religions do not.

It's a translation error. Micah 4:5. All the nations may walk
in the name of their [gods/Elohiym] ;
we will walk in the name of [the LORD/Yahwah]
our [God/Elohiym] for ever and ever.

 

[seekandlisten]

It's a translation error. Micah 4:5. All the nations may walk
in the name of their [gods/Elohiym] ;
we will walk in the name of [the LORD/Yahwah]
our [God/Elohiym] for ever and ever.

The way you have it still reads the same to me so what is this 'translation error'? I guess I should of quoted the whole passage. Here it is:

1 In the last days
the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established
as chief among the mountains;
it will be raised above the hills,
and peoples will stream to it.

2 Many nations will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths."
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

3 He will judge between many peoples
and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not take up sword against nation,
nor will they train for war anymore.

4 Every man will sit under his own vine
and under his own fig tree,
and no one will make them afraid,
for the LORD Almighty has spoken.

5 All the nations may walk
in the name of their gods;
we will walk in the name of the LORD
our God for ever and ever.


Translate/interpret it however you want, my argument isn't on 'interpretion of Scripture'.