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Allah is not the God of Abraham

Mujahid Abdullah said:
Where did you study Arabic Sahrf mdo757? in Arabic "the god ascends" al 'ala ilah spelled completly different with a gutteral 'ain, but Im sure you know Arabic lexicography so I dont need to explain what an 'ain is to you.

Allah means "The' = Al "God" = "ilah" meaning the only God or the singular God. you are correct that the pagan Arabs worshipped Allah in their pantheon, but this does not negate wheather he was the God of Abraham, because the pagan Arabs considered Him the God of their fore-fathers (i.e Ismael (AS))

Now as far as your argument that Yahweh is the true name of God, well I cant argue with you on that because as Muslims we simply dont beleive that. We refer to Allah subhana wa ta 'ala as Allah out of respect for Allah, the name Allah has nno plural form, no masculine form and no femine form. It is also never used in any other context, except refering to the Supreme creator. To call Him God, or Yahweh is acceptable, the Muslims dont do this, because this was not the was y that Rasoolullah (SAW) refered to Him.

I also find the story of chemosh interesting, it seems as if Chemosh was not an Arab or an Arabic speaker because the sound "Ch" is not in the Arabic language.

Now I can understand when you guys denie the prophethood of our beloved Rasoolullah (SAW), and I can understand when you have valid beefs with the beleifs and comparative practices of our 2 religions, and Im not here to debate you on that. but when you state facts which are clearly either fabricated or un-researched, It makes me upset because there are so many other points to attack Islam on dont just make ones up.

One more thing, you insult your christian Arab brothers who worship the same as you and believe the same as you yet call their Gods Allah and 'iesa (AS) (theres that 'ain again)
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3000 years ago the Arabs knew God's name as Yahwah, as the God of Abraham. The name Allah/Alilah comes from the Babylonians, it is not a Arabic word. In Aramaic the word [ il ] means god. Example: Israil. You need to re-read what I wrote.
 
If there are any Arab Christians who are my brother in Christ, then they should pay close attention to what I have said. It is for their edification that I wrote this.
 
Here is a list of variant names for Chemosh: Chemosh, Chemesh, Shemesh, Shemosh, Shamosh, Kemosh, Kemesh, Kemowsh, Shamash, SHMH. I have no Idea why there are so many variants to the spelling of that name.
:crazy
 
You must not have re-read what I wrote: Now here is a link and proof, that the name Yahwah was used by the Arabs 3000 years ago: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesha_Stele "and I slew all of them: seven thousand men and boys, and women and gi-
17.and maidens because I had dedicated it to Ashtar Kemosh I took [the ves-]
18.-sels of YHWH, and I dragged them before Kemosh."
 
Again I say: The spelling of "Yahwah" is based upon the fact that the ancient Proto Semitic did not use the letter "E" for a vowel. Yahwah was THE ONLY GOD known by the Arabs as the God of Abraham 3000 years ago. The Arabs cursed the God of Abraham because He would not curse the Hebrews for them.

Numbers 24:10 Then Balak's anger burned against Balaam. He struck his hands together and said to him, "I summoned you to curse my enemies, but you have blessed them these three times. 11 Now leave at once and go home! I said I would reward you handsomely, but the LORD / Yahwah has kept you from being rewarded."

12 Balaam answered Balak, "Did I not tell the messengers you sent me, 13 'Even if Balak gave me his palace filled with silver and gold, I could not do anything of my own accord, good or bad, to go beyond the command of the LORD/ Yahwah -and I must say only what the LORD / Yahwah says'? 14 Now I am going back to my people, but come, let me warn you of what this people will do to your people in days to come."
 Link: http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword/?se ... spanend=73
 
Allah, Chemosh, and Nergel were phases of the sun, and Pagan gods. Allah was the morning sun god. Allah / Alilah : The / god / ascends. Al-il-ah

Numbers 21:29
Woe to you, O Moab! You are destroyed, O people of Chemosh! He has given up his sons as fugitives and his daughters as captives to Sihon king of the Amorites.

Judges 11:24
Will you not take what your god Chemosh gives you? Likewise, whatever the LORD our God has given us, we will possess.

1 Kings 11:7
On a hill east of Jerusalem, Solomon built a high place for Chemosh the detestable god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the Ammonites.

1 Kings 11:33
I will do this because they have forsaken me and worshiped Ashtoreth the goddess of the Sidonians, Chemosh the god of the Moabites, and Molech the god of the Ammonites, and have not walked in my ways, nor done what is right in my eyes, nor kept my statutes and laws as David, Solomon's father, did.

2 Kings 23:13
The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption—the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon.

Jeremiah 48:7
Since you trust in your deeds and riches, you too will be taken captive, and Chemosh will go into exile, together with his priests and officials.

Jeremiah 48:13
Then Moab will be ashamed of Chemosh, as the house of Israel was ashamed when they trusted in Bethel.

Jeremiah 48:46
Woe to you, O Moab! The people of Chemosh are destroyed; your sons are taken into exile and your daughters into captivity.
 
The Babylonian Talmud says: "Five things did Canaan charge his sons: love one another, love robbery, love lewdness, hate your masters, and do not speak the truth" The Last Will of Canaan, Babylonian Talmud, Peshachim. 113b These five points have been the modus operadi of the Canaanites for three thousand years. "the Will of Canaan today remains the operating instructions of the Canaanite heirs, who presently control the World Order. At the same time, it remains unknown to the peoples whom the Canaanites continue to rob, enslave, and massacre." The instructions are a command to commit genocide against the people of Shem. (Genesis 27:39-41).


Genesis 27:36 Esau said, "Isn't he rightly named Jacob? He has deceived me these two times: He took my birthright, and now he's taken my blessing!" Then he asked, "Haven't you reserved any blessing for me?"

37 Isaac answered Esau, "I have made him lord over you and have made all his relatives his servants, and I have sustained him with grain and new wine. So what can I possibly do for you, my son?"

38 Esau said to his father, "Do you have only one blessing, my father? Bless me too, my father!" Then Esau wept aloud.

39 His father Isaac answered him,
"Your dwelling will be
away from the earth's richness,
away from the dew of heaven above.

40 You will live by the sword
and you will serve your brother.
But when you grow restless,
you will throw his yoke
from off your neck."

Jacob Flees to Laban
41 Esau held a grudge against Jacob because of the blessing his father had given him. He said to himself, "The days of mourning for my father are near; then I will kill my brother Jacob."
 
I am confused. Yawah is the name of our Lord, God of Abraham. I kind of figured everyone knew that. The Jews decided (long long time ago) that The word Yawah, and saying the word Yawah was to sacred for mortals, or something like that. That is why the Old Testament is filled with all upper case LORD, where ever you see that it means Yawah.

As for Allah, I don't know about sun-gods, since there is only one God and all, but I know he isn't the same God as the Jewish or Christian God (which are the same God). How do I know this? It's really simple, actually. God never changes, what He said 2000 years ago is the same today. He doesn't contradict Himself, ever. He never "out-dates" or "overrides" a previous command, He has fulfilled commands (which is why Christians are held to different rules than Jews), but that's it. The Islamic god, and yes I have read the quran (sorry, I sounded it out, there is a ' somewhere in it) goes against what God truly said in the Bible. Thus Allah cannot be Lord.

Also, Mohammad was no prophet because his "prophesies" reflected the words of a god that doesn't even exist!
 
Pard said:
I am confused. Yawah is the name of our Lord, God of Abraham. I kind of figured everyone knew that. The Jews decided (long long time ago) that The word Yawah, and saying the word Yawah was to sacred for mortals, or something like that. That is why the Old Testament is filled with all upper case LORD, where ever you see that it means Yawah.

As for Allah, I don't know about sun-gods, since there is only one God and all, but I know he isn't the same God as the Jewish or Christian God (which are the same God). How do I know this? It's really simple, actually. God never changes, what He said 2000 years ago is the same today. He doesn't contradict Himself, ever. He never "out-dates" or "overrides" a previous command, He has fulfilled commands (which is why Christians are held to different rules than Jews), but that's it. The Islamic god, and yes I have read the quran (sorry, I sounded it out, there is a ' somewhere in it) goes against what God truly said in the Bible. Thus Allah cannot be Lord.

Also, Mohammad was no prophet because his "prophesies" reflected the words of a god that doesn't even exist!
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Not saying or writing the name of God is an Eastern superstition.
 
Hi all,

Now with Abraham descendants were all important -- his wife wanted children but couldn't have any - so she devised a surrogate slave woman Hagar to bear Abraham a son Ishmael. Later a son was promised to Abraham and Sarah gave birth to Isaac. Paul takes up the discourse in talking about the slave woman and the free woman. This is the critcal point in understanding the two branches of the descendants of Abraham. Both would be great nations - but only the descendants through Isaac were to inherit all the promises God made to Abraham.

Thus we speak of the God of Abraham, and we speak of the God of Isaac -- but we do not read about the God of Ishmael in the OT.
 
Mujahid Abdullah said:
mdo757 said:
Here is a list of variant names for Chemosh: Chemosh, Chemesh, Shemesh, Shemosh, Shamosh, Kemosh, Kemesh, Kemowsh, Shamash, SHMH. I have no Idea why there are so many variants to the spelling of that name.
:crazy
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You have no idea because you dont know what your talking about.
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.
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This is the universal claim of the muslim. LOL Only the muslim knows what he is talking about, regardless of the subject. It is part of the practice of takeyya, which entitles him to say anything he likes so long as it promotes islam. :biglol
 
Pard said:
I am confused. Yawah is the name of our Lord, God of Abraham. I kind of figured everyone knew that. The Jews decided (long long time ago) that The word Yawah, and saying the word Yawah was to sacred for mortals, or something like that. That is why the Old Testament is filled with all upper case LORD, where ever you see that it means Yawah.

As for Allah, I don't know about sun-gods, since there is only one God and all, but I know he isn't the same God as the Jewish or Christian God (which are the same God). How do I know this? It's really simple, actually. God never changes, what He said 2000 years ago is the same today. He doesn't contradict Himself, ever. He never "out-dates" or "overrides" a previous command, He has fulfilled commands (which is why Christians are held to different rules than Jews), but that's it. The Islamic god, and yes I have read the quran (sorry, I sounded it out, there is a ' somewhere in it) goes against what God truly said in the Bible. Thus Allah cannot be Lord.

Also, Mohammad was no prophet because his "prophesies" reflected the words of a god that doesn't even exist!
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Very, very well-said. :clap

Have a look at allah the moon god. For more information, all you have to do is google "allah the moon god".

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm

Muslims are permitted to lie to promote islam, etc. Therefore, they lie about when, where, and how their god came about ... to promote islam, of course.
 
Mujahid Abdullah said:
You guys sound so educated.

Taqqiya is a a Shia practice, but is forbidden in Sunni Islam, which makes up the majority of the Islamic world.

..but you guys wouldnt know this because you never actually research the claims you make on your own, you simply reproduce what others have told you is fact.
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What do you swat around as fact?

According to William P. Welty, Ph.D., al-Takeyya/Taqiyya is:

"The Islamic principle of lying for the sake of Allah. Falsehoods told to prevent denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned by the Qur'an, including lying under penalty of perjury in testimony before the United States Congress, lying or making distorted statements to the media such as claiming that Islam is a religion of peace and deceiving fellow Muslims when the one lying has deemed them to be apostates."

Why don't you find the tidbit in the koran that says you may lie. :study
 
Mujahid Abdullah said:
See..

William t welty? does that sound like a Muslim to you?
.
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If I want to know something about liars, I will ask those who have no interest in lying. Understand that?
 
Mujahid Abdullah said:
You guys sound so educated.

Taqqiya is a a Shia practice, but is forbidden in Sunni Islam, which makes up the majority of the Islamic world.

..but you guys wouldnt know this because you never actually research the claims you make on your own, you simply reproduce what others have told you is fact.
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And what of Kitman? The act of distorting scripture to promote Islam? I think 5:32 is often a scripture that Islamics lie about, just an example of Kitman.

Is it not interesting though that the Qur'an speaks little of lying at all? Mostly all the passages that talk of lying speak about lies against allah from non-muslims. In fact, the only form of lying that I have ever seen the Qur'an speak against are lies against allah and lies against Mohammad. (Yes, I have broken Islamic law, and I have read the Qur'an and an assortment of other Islamic things)

In the Sura, passage 6.093 we read about lies against allah:

"Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what Allah hath revealed"? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying), "Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against Allah, and scornfully to reject of His signs!"

In the Sahih (2.378) we read about lies against Mohammad:

"I heard the Prophet saying, "Ascribing false things to me is not like ascribing false things to anyone else. Whosoever tells a lie against me intentionally then surely let him occupy his seat in Hell-Fire."

And of course by tradition it is a sin to lie to another Muslim.

Lies are permitted "in battle, for bringing reconciliation amongst persons and the narration of the words of the husband to his wife, and the narration of the words of a wife to her husband"

It's also not considered a lie when "He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar." (Sahih 3.857)

Not sure what this whole lying thing has to do with this, unless to prove that the Biblical God (Abraham's God) says lies are always sinful (then show how God never changes His mind) and then finally compare this to the Qur'an where lies are permitted (in some instances).

On the topic of Taqqiya, though Mohammad didn't call it that, he employed the same idea many times, so I find it hard that the "majority of the Islamic world" would disagree with the actions (see: teachings) of Mohammad.
 
Regurgitate? Really now? I have fully studied the Qur'an (well, not as much as a muslim, but I read it.) and the Hadeeth and other Islamic texts. I find it rather insulting that you don't think I can think for myself.

The fact is abrogation (kitman) (nashk (sp?) in Islam) is a reality in Islam and no matter how you want to spin (or in your case avoid) the topic.

Actually, the sole fact that the Quran uses abrogation (Surah 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?) is enough to speak on how Abraham's God is not allah.

An ayat is contradictory to the God of the Bible, the same God that Abraham knew. The Lord doesn't change His mind. The Lord never contradicts Himself in His Word (the Bible). Yet, we turn to the quran and what we see is the changing of mind (not simply from Bible to quran, but also withint he quran itself) and we see contradiction. This is enough to know that the God of Abraham is not allah.
 
Mujahid Abdullah said:
Oh nashkh, I am sorry if you were offended, but I can spot your arguments a mile away, and you get them from anti islamic sources. If you want to better understan a subject go to a Muslim one, as I am doing here. I do not receive my knowledge of Christianity from Muslims, this would be like learning the electrical trade from a plumber.
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I'll answer your other question in a moment, but first (and lets not argue this, since its a moot point and neither of us will budge on it, I imagine) I would normally agree with you. The problem is, if my own readings and "anti islamic sources" (actually I was using a study book written by a Muslim, not sure his name, I can go find it int he school library maybe) tell me that there is some deception that Muslims cast upon non-Muslims (see: ME) then I would be dumb to only use these sources that would allegedly deceive me into believing all is funky dory. On the other hand (your point of view) this "anti islamic sources" may very well be trying to deceive me for one of many reasons (the one that comes to mind is the fear of the "religion of peace" and Sharia Law [would it be wrong of me to say that those two things contradict?]) Anyways, I don't want to talk about this here, it is best that we honor the OP's intent by sticking to topic. (Please not that "quotations" are not meant to be read as being rude, it is just how I write.)

Secondly, apology accepted. I know you didn't mean it, and I totally understand, we can write it off as human nature!

Thirdly:

Could you please, for my own perusal, site a text of Quran which depicts the God of the Quran as diferent from the God of the OT. (please do not site NT scripture)
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I'd like to start by acknowledge that Arabic speaking Christians use Allah though they are referring to the Biblical God, and when I say Allah I am referring to the god spoken of in Islamic texts. I'd also like the continue that train of thought by stating that despite the use of Allah in by Arabic speaking Christians, they acknowledge it is not the Lord's true name. For the remainder of my posts I shall use the word Allah to refer to the god in Islamic texts and I shall use God or Lord (depending on the context) to refer to the Judaic/Christian God of the Bible. (Please don't be insulted when I make god lower case in reference to the god of Islamic texts", but I believe in one God and I believe He is not the god spoken of in the Quran and to use the uppercase G would be against my faith)

First, I shall give relevant quotes from Islamic texts that show that Allah does indeed change his mind.

Surah 2.106 -- "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?"

Surah 16.101 -- "When We substitute one revelation for another- and Allah knowest best what He reveals - They say, "Thou art but a forger"; But most of them understand not."

Now, to prove Allah is not the Lord I shall quote two passages from the Old Testament (and if you'd like I can follow up with New Testament scripture) that shows God doesn't change His mind. This is not only applied to changes in the Quran but also changes from the Bible to the Quran (because if Allah is the same god as the Lord than the Bible and the Quran should be identical, after all the OT and the NT are in God's character)

"God is not a man that He should lie, nor a son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?" Numbers 23:19

"For I, Yahweh, do not change." Malachi 3:6

This should be enough, however I do have more (and for a discussion on whether or not the Lord changes, go to the Apologetic forum, or just dust off the Bible!).

Now, the remaining evidence is going to contain NT scripture (though I don't see a problem with that at all, since God didn't change from OT to NT).

Yahweh Elohim is triune, Allah is not.

Islamic text reads, sorry I don't have the reference for this one, I have it in my notes, : "He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, The Eternal, Absolute-, He begetteth not, Nor is He Begotten; And there is none like unto Him."

However, we know that the Lord is part of three (Father, Son, Spirit). I can, in fact prove this with the OT alone:

Gen. 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."'

(We also see this in Gen. 2:22 and 11:7)

Isiah 6:8 "Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?"

And I said, "Here am I. Send me!"'

(We also see this in Isiah 48:16 and 61:1)

The very first line of the Bible reads: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Now, the translation confusion is rather simple. The word God is singular in our English translation, but if we go to the Hebrew translation we see it is actually the plural word for God, i.e. Gods (Actually, the word is "Elohim" in Hebrew and it refers to more than two Gods).

How do we know that there are not just multiple gods? (This is just for the sake of making it known, we all know their is only one God!) We turn to Deuteronomy 6:4 and it explicitly tells us that the Lord of Israel is the ONE God.

It would appear that there is a contradiction in the Tanakh and until Christ came along and the NT clarified this that contradiction remained, but this is not so! Genesis 1:2 reads: "The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters. "It says "Spirit of God", we as Christians know this as the Holy Spirit, our gift from God for accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior. So there we have it, God the Father was at least accompanied by one other form, God the Spirit (And we know from the Hebrew word "Elohim" that there has to be MORE than 2 so...).

Next we go to the very next line, again! Genesis 1:3 reads: "Then God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. " You see, the line that says "God said", that means Jesus. How do we know this? Because Jesus is the Word of God (John 1:1-3). Whenever we see the Lord speaking int he Old Testament, we as Christians know that it is Christ who is speaking, because He is the Word. But, how would the Jews know? We turn again to Isiah for that,

Isiah 48:1 "'Come near me and listen to this:
"From the first announcement I have not spoken in secret;
at the time it happens, I am there."
And now the Sovereign Lord has sent me,
with his Spirit.'"

We now see there is three forms of God (and all from the OT alone!).
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That is from another topic of mine.

Now, for more evidence, from the NT:

"All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 “Go therefore and make disciples of call the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.†Matthew 28: 18-20
 
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