Allah is not the God of Abraham

[Pard]

Now I actually addressed this plurality used in the OT earlier in another thread, maybe you dismissed it as non sence, but in semetic languages, the plural of word is used to conotate nobility, Kings of semetic lands have refered to themselves in this manner. So to the hebrews, God was the Ultimate King, so He too would speak as a nobleman would. Jewish scholars of the OT (which, in refernce to the torah, I turn to them and not christians) view this plural references to that.

I know you commented on it. I read it, never got a chance to respond. The problem with that argument is that it neglects to consider that Moses wrote these books long before such traditions were ever introduced, in fact most scholars (of non-Jewish faith) agree that the creation of plurality to show power was created by the Jews to answer the problem they faced in the Bible. Furthermore, if we look at the break down of Elohim. Furthermore, the use of Elohim and accompanying words does not match the proper usage of this verbal tradition because it implies god in the singular and then immediately switches to plural, and this is not in keeping with such a tradition.

This argument you pose doesn't even begin to answer the other two parts of God that we see in the first lines of Genesis!

This hinting at the Trinity in Genesis only strengthens the New Testament and shows that even in the littlest of detail God never changes His mind in anything that He does.

By saying there is more than one God, you violate the comandment "thou shall not take any Idols before me", why would God affirm his unity, but all the while, ask you to worship other gods along with him? (maybe that comandment should have read "thou shall not worship any gods, except the ones approved by me")

You evidently have no clue as to the Trinity, huh? The Trinity is a single God, there is only one God, after all. God is all powerful, the Lord works in ways we cannot understand, we are human, He is God. To you and I it may sound odd that one Being can be three, but it's not hard at all, for God. Maybe you should pray for God to enlighten you, maybe ask for the Holy Spirit, He'll tell you. ;)

Your opinion on christian arabs referencing Allah. I find that much more intellectually honest then mdo trying to negate it through linguistics, which is obsurd.

Well, it is the truth we are after, no need muddying the water to reach the truth.

I am not sure if you understood the arabic definitions of Naskh, because in no circumstance does Allah change his mind, but rather gives new direction to his followers, an ongoing revelation. This change in direction is recorded and noted as an abrogation and is done with Allahs most infinite wisdom.

I will talk about this later, it's late and I don't want to stay up to late! (Church in the morning and all)

One big change of standard operting procedure in the NT is that it was not given to us by a Prophet. The entirety of the bible is a recollection and collection of the sayings and oppinions of the Apostles.

I couldn't disagree with you more on this point. The Old Testament and the New Testament are both inspired by the Lord. It doesn't matter who took down what the Lord said, it only matters that the Lord said it. Yes, there are opinions at some points, but these are noted as opinion (1 Corinthians comes to mind) and are meant to apply Christianity to various cultures.

Furthermore, you forget that John was a prophet, or did you get bored and forget to read the last book int he NT ;)

What other instance in biblical history did God negate the law, or have the companions of a Prophet comment on the Prophets teachings, and consider that the word of god? Now has God then changed his ways? or has Yahweh Changed?

By Prophet I assume you are speaking of our Lord Jesus Christ? He is part of the Godhead, don't you know. In truth it's much more like God's followers writing about God... oh, wait, didn't Moses do that too?

 

[Bronzesnake]

Lying. Al-Hassan Al-Basri said: "Nifaaq is the difference between the inner and the appearance, between statement and action and between entering and leaving and it used to be said that the foundation of nifaaq upon which it is built is lying."

What about the peace of Saladin?
It is ok to lie against an infadel right?

Bronzesnake

 

[Pard]

Lying. Al-Hassan Al-Basri said: "Nifaaq is the difference between the inner and the appearance, between statement and action and between entering and leaving and it used to be said that the foundation of nifaaq upon which it is built is lying."

What about the peace of Saladin?
It is ok to lie against an infadel right?

Bronzesnake

as a strategrm of war, lying is permisable. But lying is not permitted outside of a war context.

Wouldn't peace mean an end of war? Seems to me if you sign to a peace treaty and then break it you break it not in times of war, but in peace times.

 

[Pard]

its war, do you think the CIA or the American Military go around always tell the truth when fighting an enemy?

Just pointing out, the US military and the CIA and the FBI and such are not part of Christian doctrine, they are part of American law. And my liberal friend (using that loosely!) Barb has informed me (with no evidence int he least) that we are not a Christian nation or even made by Christians... so I am gonna go on a wing (and against what I actually know and have documents to prove) and say that the USA can lie because it is not bound with Christianity.

Now this is layed out in Islamic law because Islam is a complete religion. Every aspect of human life has been addresed by Islam. christianity is more spiritual and personal, the conduct of sex, or bussiness, or clipping ones nails are ambigous or unadressed, so you guys do not have such rulings in your religion, but you still partake in all these acts including war.

Have to disagree completely. Christianity is very much tied into every aspect of a Christians life and though not directly addressed in scripture (or at least all of it, though much is) Christianity still addresses all aspects of life because the scripture has been written so that I can apply it to all aspects of life. Furthermore, Christians hold within them the Holy Spirit, and He guides you in all matters, we have the Living Word within each of us.

:amen

 

[jasoncran]

I agree, the US is not christian in nature, but many christians serve the Government, like for instance jasoncran. So, if a christian and soldier, like jasoncran partake in deceptive war tactic, is jason sinful?define the deception, misinformation to start a war? no that is immoral. does this happen yes. sometimes we have grey areas that are hard to into great lenghts, such as dealing with the likes of hussien to keep iran at bay.
my point is war is not the same as everday life, in war murder is technichly ok, stealing, lieing. all of this is justified, not just by Muslims, but by humans all over the world. Islam also puts limits on war though, which at the advent of Islam, were revolutionary.

Are you against war, are you a pacifist? im just curious as to to your thinking, because war is talked about in the OT.

I hope jason could share his oppinion on this subject.war is moral justifiable if the defense of another is the idea or the threat against lives, not for the conquest ie, the mexican-american war , the indian wars. and others. btw most of the wars we fought havent been all that imperialistic.

I agree, christian teachings trickle down to every aspect of your life, but many aspects are not specificly addressed, which is ok. my point is, Islam specificly addresses every aspect of life. i can not think of any aspect which is not addressed.

 

[Pard]

So, if a christian and soldier, like jasoncran partake in deceptive war tactic, is jason sinful?

Well, I wouldn't say so, because Romans 13 kind of covers that...

Me, a pacifist? Hardly. I believe that (as an American) it is our job to defend republics the world around, and fight tyrants and dictators. As an American I very much believe in American Exceptional-ism, and we have a duty to spread this to the world. We are master servants. I also believe that is the duty of the military leaders and the commander in chief to keep Americans safe (civilians and soldiers alike) and which ever way saves the most Americans is the right way to go.

I don't disagree with you on lying in war at all, I was just rolling with it. Though I must say, there is a difference between military deception that the US deploys and the treaty breaking Mohammad employed.

 

[jasoncran]

what about in defence of either a homeland or a an idea.

like in a crusade-like scenario, where thr majority of people being invaded by crusaders, were against their invasion and presence.
the crusades were wrong, i was wondering when you would bring that up , if gabe was here, he would debate that one with you
Also, what is your opinion on christians in the current wars being fought. If a christian soldier is ordered to shoot a pashtun man, in defense of American policies, or the afghani people (which ever way you want to look at it) is that christian soldier sinful? what if a christian comander lies to the enemy in order to deceive them, is he sinful?

no, as the pashtun must be a threat, not just walking by waving like this . please educate your self on the laws of war. contrary to the left propraganda we do follow them unlike the enemy. i have watched the videos of beheadings.

name on example that we have commanders decieving the enemy, when they surrender we aprehend them and feed them, we give them the right to mail home and when haji gets to see his family from afghanistan while at gitmo, know that this is part of the geneva conventions. has there been violations yes. but that isnt that common.

my job is the operations of a prison in country or stateside. we dont pay for our citizens to see the inmates relatives , now do we.

 

[Ahuli]

Regurgitate? Really now? I have fully studied the Qur'an (well, not as much as a muslim, but I read it.)

Don't forget, most muslims don't read Arabic and many, many of them don't read at all.

and the Hadeeth and other Islamic texts. I find it rather insulting that you don't think I can think for myself.

[quote:x5ym60n6]They'll quickly tell you that you can't think at all. :biglaugh

The fact is abrogation (kitman) (nashk (sp?) in Islam) is a reality in Islam and no matter how you want to spin (or in your case avoid) the topic.

That spin, which changes direction at will, is the most practiced part of takeyya. To lie to and take advantage of the dhimmi is rewarded by allah.

Actually, the sole fact that the Quran uses abrogation (Surah 2:106: None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?) is enough to speak on how Abraham's God is not allah.

An ayat is contradictory to the God of the Bible, the same God that Abraham knew. The Lord doesn't change His mind. The Lord never contradicts Himself in His Word (the Bible). Yet, we turn to the quran and what we see is the changing of mind (not simply from Bible to quran, but also withint he quran itself) and we see contradiction. This is enough to know that the God of Abraham is not allah.[/quote:x5ym60n6]
Is allah not the greatest deceiver of them all?

Then he reminds the apostle of His favour towards him when the people plotted against him 'to kill him, or to wound him, or to drive him out; and they plotted and God plotted, and is the best of plotters.' i.e. I DECEIVED them with My firm GUILE so that I delivered you from them. (The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ibn Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth impression 1995], p. 323; capital emphasis ours)

But they (the Jews) were deceptive, and Allah was deceptive, for Allah is the best of deceivers (Wamakaroo wamakara Allahu  waAllahu khayru al-makireena)! S. 3:54; cf. 8:30

Great link:
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ ... ceiver.htm

Ayoub also sources one Muslim who actually boasted of Allah being the best conniver/deceiver/schemer etc.,

    "Qurtubi observes that some scholars have considered the words ‘best of schemers’ to be one of God’s beautiful names. Thus one would pray, ‘O Best of Schemers, scheme for me!’ Qurtubi also reports that the Prophet used to pray, ‘O God, scheme for me, and do not scheme against me!’ (Qurtubi, IV, pp. 98-99; cf. Zamakhshari, I, p. 366)." (Ibid., p. 166)

It gets worse. Satan accused Allah of misleading or deceiving him:

He said: Now, because Thou hast sent me astray (aghwaytanee), verily I shall lurk in ambush for them on Thy Right Path. S. 7:16 Pickthall

[Iblis (Satan)] said: "O my Lord! Because you misled me (aghwaytanee), I shall indeed adorn the path of error for them (mankind) on the earth, and I shall mislead (walaoghwiyannahum) them all. S. 15:39 Hilali-Khan

What makes this last reference rather interesting is that Satan promises to do to mankind what Allah did to him, namely, pervert/deceive/mislead people from the path!

Lest a Muslim say that these are the lies of Satan, that the enemy was merely slandering Allah, here is a text where the Quran acknowledges that the Devil was right since Allah does pervert/deceive/mislead people from the way:

And my sincere counsel will not profit you, if I desire to counsel you sincerely, if God desires to pervert you (yughwiyakum); He is your Lord, and unto Him you shall be returned.' S. 11:34 Arberry

To say that this is amazing would be a wild understatement.

The link is a great expositor of allah as liar. So, muslims, don't get so uptight about takeyya/kitman/hudna. We know you do it from our own experience and I include my own, personal experience as well.

 

[Ahuli]

Ok forget pashtuns, would you consider it a sin for a christian soldier to kill another human being, if the war being fought was injust?

Im not trying to start a discussion on the justifiability of the two current wars, I just am curious as to your oppinion

I call that muslim slyness. Tell me, which one of you muslims considers non-military, non-muslims to be civilians? Would you answer that question? Thank you.

 

[jasoncran]

mujaheed first when i use the word haji, i dont mean that as insult just a habit as that what we called the enemy just the germans were called gerrys in ww2, the japs gooks and so on.

if that offends you i will adjust fire.

defenine the unjust killing via known military laws.

these are the parameters
laws of war
roe set forth by commander


google the laws of war as that will be another op which you may start.

 

[jasoncran]

ok then, hmm

james 4 applies to that openly and note defending the economic interests is a grey one.

james 4:1" from whenceforth cometh all wars, ye lust and ye kill ye but have not.. ye ask and and recieve not, ye ask amiss..

this can and has been done to wit i mentioned these unjust american wars

the american indian wars, where we simply killed them for land. the seminoles, wars of 1836.
we had the legal right to florida but the indians driven here werent privy to that. and they thought they had a right to the land.
i believe this one war to be both wrong and right, as i can see how and why jackson killed and hunted the indians here like he did, they killed the children of whites(billy bow legs).

but we did legally by treaty purchase florida so in a sense we had a right to the land.

that is they grey area.



now then to answer your question: if its for more wealth then no it aint right. and christians have protested these wars.

 

[JudaicChristian]

You are correct, the trinity concept is well beyond my mind to comprehend, but I have not met a christian yet who admits to adequetly understanding it. This is actually one reason I left christianity, I understand god is well beyond our comprehension, but I refuse to beleive that a core tennet of religion would be inconceivable to man.

This interpretation of your, which is also held by most of christianity, is just that, an interpretation. The jews read that book, which is ultimately thier book, and see something else. I tend to side with the Jews on the OT or the torah. The reason: its theirs, any errors or mistranslations are all their responsibity, and interpretations, even when Islam disagrees, make more sence thatn christian interpretations.

It seems we will have to disagree on these points, as we are both looking at them through diffeent prisms. Tell you what, you pray for guidance from the father for both of us, and I will make dua for guidance for both of us.

Not all Christians are Trinitarian.

 

[Non-Excluvistic]

There is only one God, one Ultimate Reality, called different name by cultures, who reveals himself through different sages. Yahweh is the Hebrew name for God, and Allah is the Arabic name for God. He is called Brahma in in Hinduism. I think often Christians confuse Jewish history with God, with world history with God, but that is a misunderstanding. Even in Arabic Jewish parts of the world they call God Allah in the Torah. In Arabic Christian bibles, God is called Allah and often Allah al aba (God the father)

[youtube:1our684i]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_l3wmMSJcU&playnext_from=TL&videos=c3yTe6fvemY[/youtube:1our684i]

 

[Ahuli]

@ AHLUI

This is what happens when you get your understanding of Islam from an Anti Islamic site. (although it does satisfy your own desire to discredit the religion, by beleiving this material, you only deceive yourselff...but feels good)

c.

Why don't you tell us who in islam is considered innocent and not subject to your sword. Children? Women? Please answer correctly. I get my understanding from studying the muslim and the source of his education.

Answer my question directly and avoid the usual muslim double-speak. Also, consider that I already know the answer and would like to know if YOU DO.

I don't mind giving you a hand:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362038/posts

 

[jasoncran]

Those kind of wars in Islam are also unjust.
if a Muslimgoes to war with a country under unjust circumstances, than the Mujahideen are forbidden to fight.

This actually happed when the Ottamans fell and the saud family took power. In Jordan, the Hashimi fighting force were ordered to kill Muslims so the saud family could gain power. the Mujahideen actually revolted and turned on the Saud family.

the northern alliance to the afghanis were known as the mujahadeen.

 

[Pard]

There is only one God, one Ultimate Reality, called different name by cultures, who reveals himself through different sages. Yahweh is the Hebrew name for God, and Allah is the Arabic name for God. He is called Brahma in in Hinduism. I think often Christians confuse Jewish history with God, with world history with God, but that is a misunderstanding. Even in Arabic Jewish parts of the world they call God Allah in the Torah. In Arabic Christian bibles, God is called Allah and often Allah al aba (God the father)

[youtube:a1c69a26]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_l3wmMSJcU&playnext_from=TL&videos=c3yTe6fvemY[/youtube:a1c69a26]

You are aware that the moment you click play a big old thing pops up saying he is not a Muslim at all, right? Wasn't sure what you are trying to say here, sounds like you are saying all Gods are the same... all he is saying is that allah is arabic for God and Jews, Christians, and Muslims use the name... and this fact has already be stated a few times. Also, Christians and Jews who speak arabic use allah the way english speakers use God. It is not the LORD's name, it is just who He is.

 

[jasoncran]

i can see that.

just was thought that was only the name for the northern alliance only till now.

 

[Ahuli]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362038/posts[/url]

I already elaborated on combatants and noncombatants according to Sharia law. (see page 10 of this thread)

I also elaborated on the permissibility of the use of Taqqiyah according to Sunni scholars, the majority forbid its use, but shia scholars allow it and invented it. (See page 9 of this thread)

I have no doubt you already know all of this since you study Islam by using Muslim sources.

BTW, what specific books and scholars do you consult when gaining your vast knowledge of our beutiful religion?

Muslim, I know your tricks!

My knowledge is limited when it comes to Islam, and I would like to know where I can go to be as knowledgeable as you.[/quote:2lblo1pw]
Here is how it works:

Mansur Escudero, head of the Federation of Islamic Religious Entities, called on clerics to formally condemn terrorism and pray for all terror victims. He went on to state, ''The terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization ... which result in the death of civilians, such as women and children ... are totally prohibited and are the object of strong condemnation within Islam.''

Sounds good so far.

But let's examine what this man did not say, as well as the timing of his little media-sensation fatwa.

This fatwa was timed to coincide with the 1-year anniversary of the bombing in Madrid. Sure, several hundred people died, but this is not the first time that hundreds, nay, thousands of people have died at the hands of Muslims merely because they weren't Muslim.

Therefore, one must ask why was there no such fatwa issued in the aftermath of 9-11? And why has no fatwa about the "...death of civilians, such as women and children'' ever been issued regarding the thousands upon thousands of Jewish/Israeli victims of genocidal terror ever been issued?

I will tell you why. This is al-Takeyya/Taqiyya at its most devious and deceptive. And the key word here is 'civilians.'

In radical Islam (Islamism), any Jew living in Israel is not considered either 'innocent' or a 'civilian.' Nor were the people living and working in America on 9-11. Islamists consider the 'Great Satan -- America,' and the 'Little Satan -- Israel,' to be enemy combatants.And this includes every man, woman or child, even babes in arms, even sleeping or in school or playing in playgrounds.[/color] This includes any and all who are not Islamists and who oppose being forced to kneel down and pay homage to Allah or his followers. In particular, Christians (whom they call 'Crusaders'), and Jews.[/color]

This also includes those of us who refuse to allow the Islamists to insidiously inject their politico-religious dogma into our way of life. And this especially includes Israel, whom the Islamists view as a polluting force in their quest for 'Arab unity' and a Judenrein Middle East.

So the fatwa issued by this Muslim cleric living in Spain was meant to put the free and civilized world into yet another coma. He was hoping we would see this supposedly 'peaceful and tolerant' religious edict and sing the praises of Islam and remind each other how it is a 'peaceful' religion, even though the word 'Islam' also means 'to submit,' and our utter and complete submission is what they are working towards.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362038/posts

Are you getting it yet?

 

[JudaicChristian]

There is only one God, one Ultimate Reality, called different name by cultures, who reveals himself through different sages. Yahweh is the Hebrew name for God, and Allah is the Arabic name for God. He is called Brahma in in Hinduism. I think often Christians confuse Jewish history with God, with world history with God, but that is a misunderstanding. Even in Arabic Jewish parts of the world they call God Allah in the Torah. In Arabic Christian bibles, God is called Allah and often Allah al aba (God the father)

The truth about the name "Allah" is not normally made known. People are more concerned about being politically correct then the truth. Did you jump into the middle of this thread, if so then you may want to read some of the first post.

 

[JudaicChristian]

This Muslim Scholar in spain, Ive never heard of him, so I cant comment on him.

As far as that doctrine you so eloquently explained, and attributed entirety of Islam, well thats simply not true. This view that since all Israelis are required to fight for the IDF, they are all to be counted as combatants, is held by Hizbollah (shia) and HAMAS(salafi), but there are many more palestinian scholars as well as scholars from else where who refute it.

Here are some links to Orthodox, qualified, and well known Muslim Scholars who contradict what you say we beleive. and since it is our belief, I think our words hold more weight than your claims of what we believe.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm - This link is written by Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller, he is an American born convert to Islam, He is an expert in both hanafi fiqh, as well as shafi fiqh. He is also the Muqadam of Sheikh Abdur Rahman Ash-Shuguri (RA). This man is a major expert in Islam.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp? ... 9&CATE=124 - this article is written by another big name scholar and foremost expert on our religion. Farraz Rabbani.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28220562/Fatwa-on-Terrorism - here is 600 page fatwa by Tahir ul Qadri, utterly dissmantling the Al Qaeda view of Jihad, and showing the traditional view taken by Muslim scholars throughout history.

Here are just 3 examples of Muslims claiming the exact opposite of what you claim. Now if you step back and look at things from balanced view point. There are several doctrinal issues that christians can use to refute Islam, and keep their christian kids from becoming "islamics", so why do so many christians reort to bold face lies when discussing what we believe? Lies are ussually used in last resort cases, but people like ahlui usae them right off the bat. Do these kind of people feel that the doctrinal Issues are far to weak to refute Islam, that they have to make stuff up and say we secretly belive it?

@Ahlui - you see the first two links I posted, study Islam from links Masud.com, marifah.net, and sunnipath.com. It will give you a much clearer understanding about what we actually believe than going to the websites which make you feel good when they defame and distort what we truly belive,

Perhaps you or your Muslim friends think and feel that way, but other Muslims do not.