Allah is not the God of Abraham

[JudaicChristian]

The majority of Muslims follow these scholars, the minority who disagree are called salafi/wahabi - so, if posting these false beliefs, you accredit those belifs to salaf/wahabis, I will support your claims, and may add to them to discredit them. But when attribute those beliefs to ALL Muslims, I will vehemently deny
them.

The goal of these people who post this garbage is to discredit Islam AS A WHOLE, so they invent lies, and/or stretch the truth or omit crucial facts.

This was the tactic of nazis used to attack Judaism, thus gaining mass support of the german masses to round them up and slaughter them.

Did you find any errors in what I wrote or the scholars quotes? Im talking about the first pages of this thread.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I would not want you to defile yourself by reading the articles.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Honestly, I read very little of it. But what I read and the citation you used were not contemporary Muslim scholars, from what I read you used Jewish Historians as citations.

Maybe you could briefly list the names of the Muslim Scholars you used and the books in which you derived your info.

I have yet to find ANY Muslim scholar who says we worship a sun or moon god.

I really dont feel like going round and round about this subject with you, because I see it as symantics,
You say I dont worship the God of Abraham, I say I do. its a vicious cycle.[/quote]
Do you think everyone is a liar if they are not a Muslim. Do you realize that if those scholars were found to be dishonest, that it would ruin their career as scholars. You say that I used a bunch of Jewish Historians. How did you establish that as a fact? I do not recognize any Jewish names among those scholars, but even so, that does not make them a liar.

 

[JudaicChristian]

We have two eyes, two ears, and two halves of a brain. In learning anything it would be best if we use all of what we have.

 

[Ahuli]

Here is how it works:

Mansur Escudero, head of the Federation of Islamic Religious Entities, called on clerics to formally condemn terrorism and pray for all terror victims. He went on to state, ''The terrorist acts of Osama bin Laden and his al Qaeda organization ... which result in the death of civilians, such as women and children ... are totally prohibited and are the object of strong condemnation within Islam.''

Sounds good so far.

But let's examine what this man did not say, as well as the timing of his little media-sensation fatwa.

This fatwa was timed to coincide with the 1-year anniversary of the bombing in Madrid. Sure, several hundred people died, but this is not the first time that hundreds, nay, thousands of people have died at the hands of Muslims merely because they weren't Muslim.

Therefore, one must ask why was there no such fatwa issued in the aftermath of 9-11? And why has no fatwa about the "...death of civilians, such as women and children'' ever been issued regarding the thousands upon thousands of Jewish/Israeli victims of genocidal terror ever been issued?

I will tell you why. This is al-Takeyya/Taqiyya at its most devious and deceptive. And the key word here is 'civilians.'

In radical Islam (Islamism), any Jew living in Israel is not considered either 'innocent' or a 'civilian.' Nor were the people living and working in America on 9-11. Islamists consider the 'Great Satan -- America,' and the 'Little Satan -- Israel,' to be enemy combatants.And this includes every man, woman or child, even babes in arms, even sleeping or in school or playing in playgrounds.[/color] This includes any and all who are not Islamists and who oppose being forced to kneel down and pay homage to Allah or his followers. In particular, Christians (whom they call 'Crusaders'), and Jews.[/color]

This also includes those of us who refuse to allow the Islamists to insidiously inject their politico-religious dogma into our way of life. And this especially includes Israel, whom the Islamists view as a polluting force in their quest for 'Arab unity' and a Judenrein Middle East.

So the fatwa issued by this Muslim cleric living in Spain was meant to put the free and civilized world into yet another coma. He was hoping we would see this supposedly 'peaceful and tolerant' religious edict and sing the praises of Islam and remind each other how it is a 'peaceful' religion, even though the word 'Islam' also means 'to submit,' and our utter and complete submission is what they are working towards.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1362038/posts

Are you getting it yet?

This Muslim Scholar in spain, Ive never heard of him, so I cant comment on him.

As far as that doctrine you so eloquently explained, and attributed entirety of Islam, well thats simply not true. This view that since all Israelis are required to fight for the IDF, they are all to be counted as combatants, is held by Hizbollah (shia) and HAMAS(salafi), but there are many more palestinian scholars as well as scholars from else where who refute it.

Here are some links to Orthodox, qualified, and well known Muslim Scholars who contradict what you say we beleive. and since it is our belief, I think our words hold more weight than your claims of what we believe.
http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/terrorism.htm - This link is written by Sheikh Nuh Ha Mim Keller, he is an American born convert to Islam, He is an expert in both hanafi fiqh, as well as shafi fiqh. He is also the Muqadam of Sheikh Abdur Rahman Ash-Shuguri (RA). This man is a major expert in Islam.

http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp? ... 9&CATE=124 - this article is written by another big name scholar and foremost expert on our religion. Farraz Rabbani.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/28220562/Fatwa-on-Terrorism - here is 600 page fatwa by Tahir ul Qadri, utterly dissmantling the Al Qaeda view of Jihad, and showing the traditional view taken by Muslim scholars throughout history.

Here are just 3 examples of Muslims claiming the exact opposite of what you claim. Now if you step back and look at things from balanced view point. There are several doctrinal issues that christians can use to refute Islam, and keep their christian kids from becoming "islamics", so why do so many christians reort to bold face lies when discussing what we believe? Lies are ussually used in last resort cases, but people like ahlui usae them right off the bat. Do these kind of people feel that the doctrinal Issues are far to weak to refute Islam, that they have to make stuff up and say we secretly belive it?

@Ahlui - you see the first two links I posted, study Islam from links Masud.com, marifah.net, and sunnipath.com. It will give you a much clearer understanding about what we actually believe than going to the websites which make you feel good when they defame and distort what we truly belive,

Your comment "That's simply not true" was expected. Thank you for meeting my expectations.

 

[JudaicChristian]

Mine also.

 

[Ahuli]

I would not want you to defile yourself by reading the articles.

LOL! So far, he has demonstrated the muslim way with grandeur and supreme eloquence. I have in the past, quoted their most renowned scholars only to be told that in this instance (my quote) that scholar was wrong. Even when you don't get tired of the lies and shenanigans they pull and show them how they are absolutely and positively wrong, they will walk away proclaiming their victory in the discussion as loudly as they can. That is takeyya in action. Liars they are and proud of it.

 

[Ahuli]

We have two eyes, two ears, and two halves of a brain. In learning anything it would be best if we use all of what we have.

many times what we have, i.e our own intellect and understanding is insufficient. The only true source of guidance for human beings is God, all of our faculties are wothless to us without His assistance.

And what does YOUR god use to guide YOU? Your feet? Your bottom? Your nose? Your hair?

 

[JudaicChristian]

We have two eyes, two ears, and two halves of a brain. In learning anything it would be best if we use all of what we have.

many times what we have, i.e our own intellect and understanding is insufficient. The only true source of guidance for human beings is God, all of our faculties are wothless to us without His assistance.

And what does YOUR god use to guide YOU? Your feet? Your bottom? Your nose? Your hair?

Mujahid was not listening, reading, or thinking. That is why I wrote that.

 

[JudaicChristian]

I would not want you to defile yourself by reading the articles.

LOL! So far, he has demonstrated the muslim way with grandeur and supreme eloquence. I have in the past, quoted their most renowned scholars only to be told that in this instance (my quote) that scholar was wrong. Even when you don't get tired of the lies and shenanigans they pull and show them how they are absolutely and positively wrong, they will walk away proclaiming their victory in the discussion as loudly as they can. That is takeyya in action. Liars they are and proud of it.

I believe you. I presume they do not believe anyone would tell them the truth out of the goodness of their heart.

 

[jasoncran]

guys, if what we claim to be true, and islam is false then lets use the proper sources to counter them. not slanderous ones. if the shoe fits wear it.
i do believe islam is a false relgion but lets be intellectually honest when we debate, not all muslims are terrorist,stop attacking islam from that angle use that holy bible and go from there on the basic doctrines.

 

[jasoncran]

guys, if what we claim to be true, and islam is false then lets use the proper sources to counter them. not slanderous ones. if the shoe fits wear it.
i do believe islam is a false relgion but lets be intellectually honest when we debate, not all muslims are terrorist,stop attacking islam from that angle use that holy bible and go from there on the basic doctrines.

I agree, you got plenty of ammo right there, why make stuff up.

unless your scaredd....whoohahaha :o

me, no, i just see that its pointless to post here as when i do the others will blast me for saying that the aramic word for god is el or allah.
now if you wish to debate a former muslim then i suggest when gabe posts again, which i hope gabe will, enjoy.

 

[JudaicChristian]

guys, if what we claim to be true, and islam is false then lets use the proper sources to counter them. not slanderous ones. if the shoe fits wear it.
i do believe islam is a false relgion but lets be intellectually honest when we debate, not all muslims are terrorist,stop attacking islam from that angle use that holy bible and go from there on the basic doctrines.

Muslims believe that our bibles are full of lies. That is why I was using Archaeological findings and scholars.

 

[Pard]

Muslims believe that our bibles are full of lies. That is why I was using Archaeological findings and scholars.

One thing I have never been able to grasp. Why is it we are expected to accept someone else's doctrine, while at the same time we are supposed to avoid our own?

I mean, I can prove to you, with one passage, that Allah is not Abraham, but if I was to quote the Bible I'd be told it doesn't count, however I can quote the Quran all I want?

 

[Pard]

We can both leave the debate knowing the other side is honest and truthfully belives what the argue.With mdo and ahlui, all I get is lies about Islam, and then when I rebut those lies with what Islam actually teaches, I am called a liar, and Im using taqqiyah.

Because I like you, I will speak in truth here.

I honestly see where they are coming from, and under normal circumstances I'd whole-heartedly agree with them. However, two conflicts arise here.

1) I would like to think that I can trust you, and so I will, knowing full well that if my trust in you is false then it is not my fault, but your own. This is how I approach everyone.

2) I do not find that it is my place to argue that line, as if it is true it is a pointless route, since you will never tell the truth, and if I was to be wrong, it is a pointless route because I would never know if you were telling the truth. These arguments are an interesting kind of circular, in that one or the other side is using circular logic in their argument.

I would much rather approach you on a more reasonable grounds, such as the use of Biblical texts, and refrain from arguments that may or may not be true, and will always be a waste of energy.

 

[JudaicChristian]

WHAT SCHOALRS, just list the names for me.

Olmstead, Albert Ten Eyck
Dates
1880 - 1945
Specialization
Assyriology
Major works
Western Asia in the days of Sargon of Assyria, 722-705 B.C., New York 1908 Assyrian Historiography, Columbia, Mo. 1916 History of Assyria, New York/London 1923 History of the Persian Empire, Chicago 1948, edited by G. Cameron
Remarks
Professor, University of Chicago


Scholar: Dr. C.I. Scofield

F. V. Winnett, "The Daughters Of Allah", The Moslem World, 1940, Volume 30
Links: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls= ... =&gs_rfai=

Tisdall, W StClair, The Sources of Islam, Amarko Book Agency, New Delhi, 1901 , 5-6 , , Islamic Propagation Center Int. Durban, S. Africa

Ahmed Deedat. Links:
http://www.google.com/search?q=Ahmed+De ... 1I7GGLL_en

List of sources: Moabite Stone, Babylonian cuneiform tablets, King James Bible, Quran, Safatic inscriptions of Hauran, Dedanite inscription, Ugaritic texts, Encyclopedia Judiaca Vol. 5, Col. 390., and Satanic Verses.

 

[Ahuli]

Muslims believe that our bibles are full of lies. That is why I was using Archaeological findings and scholars.

One thing I have never been able to grasp. Why is it we are expected to accept someone else's doctrine, while at the same time we are supposed to avoid our own?

I mean, I can prove to you, with one passage, that Allah is not Abraham, but if I was to quote the Bible I'd be told it doesn't count, however I can quote the Quran all I want?

That is the way of the muslim and that is why I no longer bother with naming "scholars". As I said, the "scholar" can have the highest reputation and believability to the muslim, as soon as I use something he says to prove islam idiosyncracies, that scholar was/is wrong. That is like playing a game where the rules change as soon as the opponent loses. The muslims talents in that game are inherent and he is a practiced liar. :crazy

 

[Ahuli]

Muslims believe that our bibles are full of lies. That is why I was using Archaeological findings and scholars.

One thing I have never been able to grasp. Why is it we are expected to accept someone else's doctrine, while at the same time we are supposed to avoid our own?

I mean, I can prove to you, with one passage, that Allah is not Abraham, but if I was to quote the Bible I'd be told it doesn't count, however I can quote the Quran all I want?

the difference is Pard, your theory of why our God is not your God makes sence, its not based on lies, its based on your interpretation of both our Book and your own book

While I disagree with you on this point, I can respect you for your opinion being truthful.

We can both leave the debate knowing the other side is honest and truthfully belives what the argue.
With mdo and ahlui, all I get is lies about Islam, and then when I rebut those lies with what Islam actually teaches, I am called a liar, and Im using taqqiyah.

Muhajid, you have yet to show that islam is anything other than how it portrays itself throughout time including the present time. And don't bother to give it another try, Adullbad, the hole you're in is already too deep.

 

[Ahuli]

We can both leave the debate knowing the other side is honest and truthfully belives what the argue.With mdo and ahlui, all I get is lies about Islam, and then when I rebut those lies with what Islam actually teaches, I am called a liar, and Im using taqqiyah.

Because I like you, I will speak in truth here.

I honestly see where they are coming from, and under normal circumstances I'd whole-heartedly agree with them. However, two conflicts arise here.

1) I would like to think that I can trust you, and so I will, knowing full well that if my trust in you is false then it is not my fault, but your own. This is how I approach everyone.

2) I do not find that it is my place to argue that line, as if it is true it is a pointless route, since you will never tell the truth, and if I was to be wrong, it is a pointless route because I would never know if you were telling the truth. These arguments are an interesting kind of circular, in that one or the other side is using circular logic in their argument.

I would much rather approach you on a more reasonable grounds, such as the use of Biblical texts, and refrain from arguments that may or may not be true, and will always be a waste of energy.

For me, a good way to approach the muslim is to decide from the first moment that the lies he tells are truth to him. He tells them to honor allah, by putting one over on the infidel, which he is drected to do.


and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers"

Sura 3:54

 

[JudaicChristian]

For me, a good way to approach the Muslim is to decide from the first moment that the lies he tells are truth to him. He tells them to honor Allah, by putting one over on the infidel, which he is directed to do.
and [they] deceived and Allah deceived and Allah is the best of deceivers" Sura 3:54
That is the way of the Muslim and that is why I no longer bother with naming "scholars". As I said, the "scholar" can have the highest reputation and believability to the Muslim, as soon as I use something he says to prove Islam idiosyncrasies, that scholar was/is wrong. That is like playing a game where the rules change as soon as the opponent loses. The Muslims talents in that game are inherent and he is a practiced liar.

So then, lies and deception is part of the Muslim religion! That would mean that they are beyond reason, and beyond redemption; totally lacking in any redeeming qualities. That would make them of a very low moral grade.