America in Prophecy

[Vic C.]

I think his commentary was exactly that scripture does not get
interpreted correctly, and all points that concern America
are misunderstood with a mission.

The scripture is there and does not change, the deception starts
with its false interpretation and its projection onto someone else.

Something else? Like maybe looking outside the Bible first for answers? ;-)

The longer I study the leaders and some of the main influencers
like for example Billy Graham the more it becomes obvious to me,
that something went fundamentaly wrong. But not by accident,
rather by negligence and accepting many compromised
teachings and half true gospels. Someone has to take them
apart or God will.

No argument from me Geo.

I think the ones that seek the truth owe it to themselves to do the
big evaluation: http://www.dccsa.com/greatjoy/ambabmes.htm
take a piece of paper and note on one one side all the scripture that
might be about America and on the other side the scripture that
can posively be ruled out to be about America.

I will gladly do that. Maybe in the next 24 hours. Will you do this?

The whore. Do a word search of the OT for "Harlot". You will find it 36 times. (KJ) A good portion of the times it is describing Jerusalem or Israel. Take note of the colors and gems they were adorned with....
... They are referred to as "woman" many times throughout the Bible.

Many like to "pin" this on Rome, but they aren't described in such detail in the Bible. But... Israel and Jerusalem are.

 

[guibox]

The whore. Do a word search of the OT for "Harlot". You will find it 36 times. (KJ) A good portion of the times it is describing Jerusalem or Israel. Take note of the colors and gems they were adorned with....
... They are referred to as "woman" many times throughout the Bible.

Many like to "pin" this on Rome, but they aren't described in such detail in the Bible. But... Israel and Jerusalem are.

There are some problems here Vic:

1) A woman is represented by a church and religion, not a race. Judaism was not a religion as much as it was a culture.

2) This woman is 'drunk with the blood of the saints'. The saints are the NT+ Christians. It was Pagan Rome and then Papal Rome, not the Jews that persecuted the saints. More Christian blood was spilled during the first two centuries and the Middle Ages then probably all wars put together.

3) This woman sits on the beast that had all the characteristics of all the beasts in Daniel 7. This beast is pagan Rome.

4) God also calls the Israelites and Jews 'His holy people' as well. Just because they may have been termed 'harlot' for their apostasy on occasion, doesn't mean that this can be read into Revelation 17 of which all of Revelation is a testament for the New Covenant Christians, not a warning about the Jewish faith.

5) Revelation was also necessary for contextual application for the people it was written for, that is the people of the 1st century. Applying this to only the Jews of the 21st century is meaningless (if that is the direction one is heading to explain the harlot as the Jews).

The Jews (other then the use of the term 'harlot') don't jive with the characteristics of the harlot on the beast. Rather we see that the Roman religion later embodied in the RCC fits the bill quite nicely.

 

[Vic C.]

There are some problems here Vic:

1) A woman is represented by a church and religion, not a race. Judaism was not a religion as much as it was a culture.

Where is it said that a woman only refers to a church? Why are we limiting her to a religious system? You are aware of the many times Israel and Jerusalem are referred to as her or she, are you?

Psa 48:2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.
Psa 48:3 God is known in her palaces for a refuge.

Psa 132:13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
Psa 132:14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
Psa 132:15 I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
Psa 132:16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

See also Isaiah 62:4-5

Also, the woman in Ch. 12 is Israel and they aren't the church.

2) This woman is 'drunk with the blood of the saints'. The saints are the NT+ Christians. It was Pagan Rome and then Papal Rome, not the Jews that persecuted the saints. More Christian blood was spilled during the first two centuries and the Middle Ages then probably all wars put together.

Why do you limit saints to only the NT?

Psa 132:16 I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

If we want to talk futuristic, it could very well be that they also have a part in the persecution during the Great Tribulation.

2 Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2 Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

They will be caught in the delusion and most likely will wind up worshipping the beast and doing his will, which among other things, will be aiding and abetting in the persecution of the "saints"... and probably getting off on it too. "drunk with the blood of the saints".

3) This woman sits on the beast that had all the characteristics of all the beasts in Daniel 7. This beast is pagan Rome.

Nice. It is conjecture on your part due to your beliefs that Rome is the Beast. Plus, this has nothing to do with who the woman is. Are you saying both the whore and the beast are the antichrist?

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

What about this verse?

Rev 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. What is the great city?

Compare that to this verse:

Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

Which city is or will have the need to divide into three? Lets see... Jews, Muslims and Christians all claim a part of the Holy City, Jerusalem. It's not Rome, but Jerusalem where antichrist will set up camp.

See Daniel 11:45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

A kind gesture like dividing the land into three parts, one part for each Religious group will go a long way towards gaining people's trust.

4) God also calls the Israelites and Jews 'His holy people' as well. Just because they may have been termed 'harlot' for their apostasy on occasion,...

On occasion? Entire prophetic books have been written concerning the falling away. You do know it's only a remnant, not the whole, that will be redeemed.

... doesn't mean that this can be read into Revelation 17 of which all of Revelation is a testament for the New Covenant Christians, not a warning about the Jewish faith.

When did Revelation become a testament of it's own? No offense but that statement almost makes me want to go back to believing in a PreTrib position again and completely take out any of the "Christian" elements I read in revelations. Some people believe from Ch. 4 to Ch. 19 is ALL about Israel. Some, like myself, believe Ch. 8-11, (part of >)14-19 to be all about Israel.

5) Revelation was also necessary for contextual application for the people it was written for, that is the people of the 1st century. Applying this to only the Jews of the 21st century is meaningless (if that is the direction one is heading to explain the harlot as the Jews).

Believers in the first century were made up primary of which group of people, Jews or Gentiles? I'm not applying this to present days Jews without first considering the historical context of Old Israel.

The Jews (other then the use of the term 'harlot') don't jive with the characteristics of the harlot on the beast. Rather we see that the Roman religion later embodied in the RCC fits the bill quite nicely.

I disagree and have provided plenty of Scripture to support my theory. I have seen little scripture from you and that surprises me. I don't and can't see Rome as being both the whore and beast. Again I quote:

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. Rome hates itself?

Mat 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

Why won't anyone do the word study I suggested? Will it take too long? Is it too time consuming? Or is it that people don't want their beliefs challanged? I used to be adamant about it being Rome too, but circumstances and Scripture changed my mind.

 

[guibox]

Well, I guess it depends on how one interprets Daniel 7 as all three (Daniel 7, Revelation 13 and Revelation 17) are linked.

Anyway, about Babylon. If you want take the 'harlot' seriously and literally in applying to Israel because it is mentioned in the bible as such, then you should also take it for what it is. Babylon then, is Babylon. Hence, this is speaking about an historical event concerning the city of Babylon.

But it doesn't.

I disagree and have provided plenty of Scripture to support my theory. I have seen little scripture from you and that surprises me. I don't and can't see Rome as being both the whore and beast.

It is hard to give scriptures when you are speculating about historical and future events, don't you think?

But here goes...

Why do you limit saints to only the NT?

Verse 6 says that she is drunk with the 'martyrs of Jesus'. Now you can get into the trinity aspect of it and use Jesus saying 'I AM' to show that He was always throughout scriptural history, but in light of the NT and the NC, there is no reason to believe that this is not speaking about NT+ Christians.

Do you honestly believe that the Jews are going to rise up and slaughter millions of Christians in the future?

Obviously this is history unfolding. That's what prophecy does.

Verse 4 ' mentions that the harlot is decked out in gold, scarlet, purple and precious stones. Sounds like the Catholic churches pomp and wealth.

As to the rest of the chapter, we can speculate until the cows come home, but do we honestly know what is going to happen?

All I know is that we let the future take its course. No sense quibbling over apocalyptic literature and future events that we don't have a clue as to what will really transpire. 8-)

Just to let you know, Vic, that I really appreciate your logic and common sense even when approaching things you may not agree with. I wish more people on this forum approached things like doctrine the way you do.

 

[Georges]

You may want to consider that "The Harlot" is the whore who forsakes Torah or corrupts it.

If you use Old Testement standards to define the term "Harlot" in word usage, can anyone think of a major western religion that has played the Harlot to the Torah by being unfaithful to it (ie. by claiming it as abolished)?

 

[Vic C.]

You may want to consider that "The Harlot" is the whore who forsakes Torah or corrupts it.

If you use Old Testement standards to define the term "Harlot" in word usage, can anyone think of a major western religion that has played the Harlot to the Torah by being unfaithful to it (ie. by claiming it as abolished)?

You mean besides Mainstream Christianity? Don't think I haven't entertained that thought before. I posted somewhere else that I thought the people may have more to do with this than the Government.

 

[Vic C.]

All I know is that we let the future take its course. No sense quibbling over apocalyptic literature and future events that we don't have a clue as to what will really transpire.

Just to let you know, Vic, that I really appreciate your logic and common sense even when approaching things you may not agree with. I wish more people on this forum approached things like doctrine the way you do.

I thank you for that and the same goes for you. I agree that future events will take their course as God intends, regardless of what we think or say. I didn't think we were quibbling though, just hashing out ideas that convict us.

I am just working things out as I study the Word. Sometimes I think outside the box but don't like to say, I'm right, you're wrong. As you said in another post, we could both be wrong and I accept that. I am often in the minority when interpreting scripture, especially End Times. Just ask some of the members of my congregation. LOL

With that said, I leave you for the time being with some more scripture...

Ezek 23:17 And the Babylonians came to her into the bed of love, and they defiled her with their whoredom, and she was polluted with them, and her mind was alienated from them.
Ezek 23:18 So she discovered her whoredoms, and discovered her nakedness: then my mind was alienated from her, like as my mind was alienated from her sister.
Ezek 23:19 Yet she multiplied her whoredoms, in calling to remembrance the days of her youth, wherein she had played the harlot in the land of Egypt.

See also:

Jeremiah 3:8-9

Ezekiel 16:28

Ezekiel 16:35-36

 

[Geo]

You may want to consider that "The Harlot" is the whore who forsakes Torah or corrupts it.

Yes, Counterfeit-Christianity a la G.W.B.

One of the basics of the MYSTERYs of Babylon is pretending
to be something, yet by their action (fruit) being actually in
direct opposition to the projected image.

I never saw a spritual blindness as GREAT as that of the
leaders and ministers that follow G.W.B. into this "peace" deal.
That's the darkest point to reach. These are the same people
that think they understand the mystical deception Hitler had on
the church in Germany. He was a declared "christian", too.

They don't understand the similarities because they preach
an "all-poitive" gospel. In the words of the sharp commenter :

"That is what Jeremiah means when he says: "they have turned
them AWAY on the MOUNTAINS; they have gone from MOUNTAIN
TO HILL, they have FORGOTTEN THEIR RESTING PLACE."

"God fights His wars IN THE VALLEY. True salvation lies IN THE
VALLEY. If you refuse the VALLEY EXPERIENCE (THE NEGATIVE
ASPECTS OF THE SALVATION DOCTRINE) you will never FIND
YOUR RESTING PLACE. Jesus said you MUST PICK UP YOUR
CROSS AND FOLLOW HIM. Babylon's gospel of salvation HAS NO
CROSS, NO DEATH OF SELF, AND THEREFORE NO TRUE LIFE"

 

[Vic C.]

Here's a couple of links concerning the "whore" or "Harlot"

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/a92.htm
(Explores Rome and Jerusalem)

http://www.linkjesus.com/rev1718.htm

excerpt-

Proof #1 - Prophecy tells us who will rule many nations. It is a blessing of God to Israel, and it even describes how they will rule over the nations. They rule with money, and by lending money to them. (provides verses)

Proof #2 - The Pharisees of Jerusalem killed Stephen who was the first of "the martyrs of Jesus". Any other interpretation of who the woman is, if it does not include the Jewish religious leaders in the time of Jesus, including the Jewish religious leaders who killed the Old Testament prophets (Rev 18:24), is therefore incorrect. (provides verses)

Proof #3 - The great harlot is the "great city". The "great city" is Jerusalem. (verses)

Proof #4 - As the woman sits on seven mountains, Jerusalem is built on seven mountains: (verses)

Proof #6 - The woman is wearing red and purple, with a cup of gold in hand. The Israelite priests wear red and purple, and used cups of gold in the temple worship. (verses)

There are nine proofs in all for whoever's interested.


http://mikeblume.com/greatwh.htm

http://www.souldevice.org/pret_babylon.html

There is more than I thought. Never saw any of those.
Google Search

 

[Geo]

We all know who rules the nations in the end times, Vic
Who does lend money to the nations? (And who finances
everything with that due to a lack of other or natural resources)

nice Google search. Did you consider to not include
the search results into the query?

Hey, I found another related approach:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19667

 

[Georges]

You may want to consider that "The Harlot" is the whore who forsakes Torah or corrupts it.

If you use Old Testement standards to define the term "Harlot" in word usage, can anyone think of a major western religion that has played the Harlot to the Torah by being unfaithful to it (ie. by claiming it as abolished)?

You mean besides Mainstream Christianity? Don't think I haven't entertained that thought before. I posted somewhere else that I thought the people may have more to do with this than the Government.

The very reason I posted the 7 churches thread....it usually stirs up a hornets nest when I post these types of posts....In regard to the Woman who sits on top of the Beast, the Beast most likely represents government, while the woman must be the dominate (obviously) religion at that time.

Currently, what Religion can be considered apostate Judaism? The spiritual harlot in the OT were those of Israel who turned from the Torah of God. The same standard applies to the NT era....What religion considers the Torah as null and void?

In OT typology, did not Jezebel cause Ahab to forsake Torah? Did not Jezebel instigate the deaths of Torah observant Israelites? Did not Elijah confront Jezebel concerning the religious whoredom being committed?

Is there a church in Revelation chastised for allowing "jezebel" into the church? In the OT what did Jezebel do? Corrupted Judaism. What does the Jezebel of Revelation do? Corrupt Messianic Judaism. Did she succeed? I don't know, does mainstream Christianity still practice Messianic Judaism by observing Torah, or do they consider Torah nailed to a tree?

In the future, what do you think the future Elijah will preach against? As in the OT, he will preach against the Jezebel that is apostate Judaism.



My perosnal opinion is Christianity needs to get back to Torah...as much as possible.

 

[Vic C.]

nice Google search. Did you consider to not include
the search results into the query?

No, I wasn't trying to hide my search at all. I have no hidden agenda. I truncated it because the link was so long.

Hey, I found another related approach:
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=19667

Cool. I wonder if anyone else has a theory or theories they'd like to share?

 

[Geo]

Cool. I wonder if anyone else has a theory or theories they'd like to share?

Yes, this man has a personal theory:

http://www.thegoldenreport.com/asp/jerr ... ?a=992&z=1

although in his case we would need to call it subjective reality,
he is a Jew, a Christian and lives in Israel

can it help us understand what time is it? Nah, I doubt it. It's real for him,
though, and I appreciate his insight. For some of us here Israel is in a book
and we treat its reality as a crossword puzzle. He doesn't, he relates it to life.

 

[Vic C.]

That's a very good read Geo. We all should read it.

Thanks. :D

 

[Geo]

I was watching a few videos today about a vision that go with Ezekiel 38
by Henry Gruver . Can be found at http://www.tvbn.com/HenryGruver/

"The Russian Invasion Tapes" have something that most of us overlook:

Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same
time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:

And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages;
I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling
without walls, and having neither bars nor gates

this we know, and most come to the conclusion that unwalled villages
is not Israel. Ok, what I completely ignored so far is "I will go up"
what means "I don't go down to Israel" - what is already addressed
in previous verses in Ezekiel.

See the video, it's interesting. I think what we should be asking now is
what does "at the same time" mean, same year, same month or what?

P.S. The link of the second part of the 56K version of the video doesn't
work. If you don't know how to watch it anyway, ask me by PM.

 

[Geo]

Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish,
with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee,
Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered
thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver
and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take
a great spoil?

"The Phoenicians sailed "the Ships of Tarshish" out of
nearby Cadiz as far north as England for tin, a metal used in
the making of bronze and other alloys, which they mined in
Cornwall. Some believe that the name Britannia is actually
derived from a Phoenician word meaning "source of tin." If so,
since the ships of Tarshish brought tin to the ancient world,
this reference could be to Great Britain making the "lions"
(KJV) or "villages"(NIV) of Tarshish Great Britain's colonies,
of which the US is the most prominent today. The fact that the
Lion is a symbol of the British Empire lends support to this".


Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof = UK, America, Australia etc.

 

[Geo]

in the meanwhile I went through all Henry Gruver videos and audios

and all I can say is wow, wow, and wow.

I'm also not really a dreams and visions guy, but found
"Six Hours In Heaven" an excellent, wonderful message

understanding that his Russian Tapes is a tough one, but one
that needs to be heard now, I like to hint at his Interview,

where he explains in tape 3 of the Interview audio WHY this all happens,
and how to be safe during that moment.

very humbling

but it's ignorance that kills - better to blow the trumpet - Now

 

[Vic C.]

I have the link and started to watch one of the vids last night, but I will have to try and finish it tonight.

 

[Geo]

At least a few people might be wondering currently if it's Israel
or the US that will -- or will not -- invade Iran. Good question.

Actually, prophecy is very clear about that, read Daniel 8

It's Bush that will do it, and it will be the last major thing he'll ever do,
although there might be a short moment in time where people will give
him praise for it, at least locally, as we know the rest of the globe already
had enough of that, particularily Russia and China gave fair warning.
(--- http://www.americaslastdays.com/russians.htm )

Jim Searcy explains what's the point in Dan 8:

"Whether anyone will hear or forbear, Dan 8 is RIGHT NOW UNFOLDING
prophecy. Sadly, America is that he goat from the West, that has
come across the face of the whole earth, without touching the
ground, to stomp first horn of the ram, Iraq. The second horn of the
ram, Iran, must soon be stomped by America, and the time is NOW.
There is no wiggle room on how EXPLICIT this word of God by Daniel
is, OR that it is for NOW. The angel Gabriel is EXPLICIT that the
time context is for the Last Days at the TIME OF THE END. Gabriel is
EXPLICIT that the nations which the US he goat of the West would
attack are first Iraq, and second Iran. That is EXPLICIT with no
room for varying interpretations in these last days when it is now
possible to come across the face of the whole earth without touching
the ground. "

What I personally find interesting are the motivating reasons why
both Irak and Iran get/got attacked, it's always the economics,
if you understand the fundamentals you'll see why there's no way around it:

The Proposed Iranian Oil Bourse
The Iranian government has finally developed the ultimate "nuclear" weapon that can swiftly
destroy the financial system underpinning the American Empire. That weapon is the Iranian
Oil Bourse slated to open in March 2006. It will be based on a euro-oil-trading mechanism
that naturally implies payment for oil in Euro. In economic terms, this represents a much
greater threat to the hegemony of the dollar than Saddam's, because it will allow anyone
willing either to buy or to sell oil for Euro to transact on the exchange, thus circumventing
the U.S. dollar altogether. If so, then it is likely that almost everyone will eagerly adopt this
euro oil system: FULL STORY at http://www.gold-eagle.com/editorials_05 ... 11606.html

Of course a true reason never makes good propaganda material for another war,
that's why we can expect another major disaster that makes it understandable
to simpletons why there is a necessity to invade Iran. It will be a "bigger bang".
While I'm at it there is another OT prophecy that might see fulfillment
this year and is also a major **lead in** to Ezekiel 38 scenario: Book of Obadiah / OT

In the light of Hamas running in the Palistin. elections read about the
House of Esau extinction: http://www.cuttingedge.org/news/n1422.cfm

While above page was written a few years back, it fits actually more 2006
in light of Hamas getting a share of power in this coming Wednesday's elections.
Of course the exact timing and order of sequence is not clear, but they all seem
to be part of of a sequence that is ready to start: Obadiah - Daniel 8 - Ezekiel 38

 

[Raphe]

I think it is America and Great Britain that are the second beast that looks like a lamb but speaks like a devil. The two horns are Great Britain and the United States. They call themselves by the name of Christ as Christian, looking like the symbolic lamb of Jesus, yet spew filth into the world with pornography and idolatry, constantly bombarding the air waves with things to stimulate lust and envy when the envious will not enter the kingdom of God (Gal.5:21). America and great Britain also gave power to the first beast which is Islam. The Jihad that was nearly swept the world back in the 700s at Tours France and the gates of Vienna has been supplied with enough American and English oil dollars to resurrect the old Islam from the dead and support the third and final Jihad that will lead the world to fight over Jerusalem like Zechariah says in chapter 14. We love our country, but it is not our home. Our home is the land that goes from the Nile to the Eurphrates in Iraq. (Gen.15:18)

Eze 37:12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

The great whore or harlot is the false Christianity that exists in the end times. What was once true has sold herself off to the world and prostituted the truth of God for easy believism's. They go farther than teaching others to break the commandments of God that would make them least in the kingdom by teaching doctrine of demons through false prophets that the Lord warns us will come. Rather than enduring sound doctrine, people turn to fables and lies of Peace, peace, when there is none without repentence.