I don't think I would align myself with an old spike that attempts to deny the scriptures while claiming to be mates with the powerful and holy spirit that inspired them to come into being.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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An old question- Was Jesus God?
- Thread starter Poor Old Spike
- Start date
Jesus is and was God. Are we not to expose false doctrine with the truth of God's word? Has that been accomplished in this discussion using God's inspired words? Those who know , know. We can never change the mind that is in darkness. Only God can.
It is not possible to read scripture and make a claim that it proves Jesus was not the Father.
Let it be so. Those who know, know. Those in darkness may seek truth of the light. But they should never be permitted to lead one thought into the ebony abyss with themselves.
Please demonstrate that to me from Scripture.
R
Runner
Guest
I'm not Spike's personal apologist, but I don't believe he is asking you to "align" yourself with him. He is merely pointing out multiple verses that are difficult to reconcile with a "Jesus is God" perspective and stating that he finds them persuasive. Ditto for me. On the basis of my own study, I reached a conclusion essentially identical to that of the Jehovah's Witnesses before I had any understanding of what the JW believe. (I am not a JW. I just happen to agree with them on this issue, while believing that the "Christian essential" is what I have described in post #132.)
I am not selling or promoting my view. I don't care what you believe. I would simply urge someone like you to examine why you believe what you believe. Have you given the issue any thought at all, or have you simply adopted the doctrine of the Trinity as part of the creed of some church you have joined? Do you accept the doctrine of the Trinity on the basis of the teachings of some authority figure - and if so, why? Do you believe that an acceptance of the doctrine of the Trinity is essential to being a Christian - and if so, why? Do you understand the history of the doctrine of the Trinity, how it came to be formulated? What do you do with the verses that Spike has cited? Why do you care what Spike believes?
You may have very good answers to all of the above questions and very good reasons for rejecting Spike's interpretation. But that is the real question: Do you?
JohnDB
Member
Yes... we do
R
Runner
Guest
Is that the "royal" we? I don't believe anyone can speak for anyone else on this matter. I was addressing Selah. If you can answer, "Yes, I do" - good for you!
JohnDB
Member
Many people have given great answers explaining how the Prophets said that the Messiah was God; those who knew Him best said that He was God; Jesus said He was God and science has said that Jesus was God.
So...not so much a royal "we"... pretty much a very literal one.
I don't speak for Spike. Nor do I think it productive to speak to Spike through a mediator who presumes to know his mind.
I can read what he has stated here. And he was corrected in his errant assumptions and poor understanding of scripture by someone entrusted to moderate such discourse.
That speaks for itself I do believe.
My opinions using the scriptures to support them are also visible.
Luke 4:1
Then Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan River. He was led by the Spirit in the wilderness,
" "Our Lord Jesus Christ, who of God is God, and as man was born of the Holy Ghost and of the Virgin Mary, having both natures, the divine and the human, is the only Son of God the Father Almighty, from whom proceedeth the Holy Spirit." "St.Augustine http://biblehub.com/library/augustine/the_enchiridion/chapter_38_jesus_christ_according_to.htm#1
The Divinity of the Holy Spirit
For this is what the high and lofty One says - he who lives forever, whose name is holy (Isaiah 57:15)
Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed (Revelation 15:4)
Only God Is Holy
1 Samuel 2:2 “There is none holy like the Lord; there is none besides you; there is no rock like our God.
1 Corinthians 10:4 And all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank from the spiritual Rock that followed them, and the Rock was Christ.
Jesus Is The Rock
Jesus is God
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LovethroughDove
Member
I can read it and claim this. I am not in darkness either. He is in submission to the Father and yet God. He is seated at the right hand of the Father and we ALL know this.
I think that this discussion has pretty much run its course. The arguments have been presented and at this point the trend is heading into too much debate for this forum. For this reason and before it this discussion goes south, I am going to close this thread for further replies. I do want to express appreciation for everyone's patience and respect while discussing this topic. It can often bring out the worst but in keeping with the direction this site is trying to go, you have all done a great job of keeping your cool. Thank you!
Consecrated Life
Member
The Pharisees did not get it wrong all the time.
When they spoke of Jesus to accuse Him they were absolutely right in saying :
" who can forgive sins but God ? "
When they spoke of Jesus to accuse Him they were absolutely right in saying :
" who can forgive sins but God ? "
Consecrated Life,
Welcome to the forum. I trust you'll have an enjoyable and growth-producing time here.
Are you agreeing with Jesus' answer to the Pharisees that He, who was the God-man, was God who could forgive sins?
Oz
Serving Zion
Member
They were blind though, unaware of the implications of their speech.
Jesus' word was so sharp, it would reveal the intentions of the heart. So what they thought they were saying is "Jesus is blaspheming because only God can forgive sin" and implying that they did not see Jesus as God ("being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself").
That's why they wanted to eliminate Him, because simply they were on the wrong side, having been bound by a religious spell, and Jesus' words had the effect of revealing their error which would have broken the spell if they had repented .. but they chose to become greater sinners instead, because they were already rich in their position as religious clerics and they would not have gained anything by conceding to Jesus except a new reputation that they had been wrong all along. In fact the temptation upon them required that they let go of their entire status (hence those who want to keep their life will lose it, and it is easier for a camel to go through an eye of a needle than for those who are rich to enter into the kingdom of God).
The one who another time challenged Jesus "what is the greatest law?", he was rich too (an expert in the law). He judged Jesus' answer from that high place: "you are right" he said. "To love God is greatest, and to love your fellow man is next". Jesus' response? "You are not far from the kingdom", and why? Because although he had thought himself something when he was nothing, he had something of nobility that permitted him to give honour to the one who deserved it, even at the expense of his own pride. It is written that Jesus saw he had answered with wisdom, so in that way he had neither lost his respectable position nor had set himself against the one who had humbled him.
One could argue the pharisees where why Jesus came to Israel when He did. They represented the full meaning of following the law, to the last point they could define. Unfortunately they also added to the law, and rather than love God, they spent their time in greed and self indulgence.
Jesus was very balanced. He said we should follow their teachings but not their hypocritical example. His criticism was not their general approach but the compromise, teaching how one should live, while actually breaking the law, and then covering it up. He called this hypocrisy yeast, that worked its way through everything and destroyed the very truth and reality which God had given.
When Jesus came a taught, healed, forgave sins, as the Messiah would, they did not acknowledge who He was, but rather immediately called Him fake, a blasphemer, of the devil. The recognised their authority through Moses, so sought to find a failing in Jesus to legitimise their approach to Jesus, though not admitting Jesus could be who He showed He was. Some like Nicodemus clearly came to realise Jesus was the Christ.
In church today similar realities hold true, some taking the shell of faith and preaching greed and self indulgence as a right of the sons of God.
As far as Jesus being the Christ, he finally declares it as His trial.
63 Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."
64 "Yes, it is as you say,"
Matt 26
61 "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?"
62 "I am," said Jesus.
Mark 14
Are you the king of the Jews? Yes, it is as you say
Luke 23:3
Jesus is not God the Father.
Jesus is God; the Lord God Almighty, YHWH.
But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10
JLB
Lucian Hodoboc
Member
Yes.
However, here are some scriptures, that show us that Jesus Christ is Lord, YHWH.
Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.
Zechariah 14:1-5
Key Verse:
- Thus the LORD my God will come, and all the saints with You.
again
The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:... “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:1,10
The Spirit of Christ was speaking through Zechariah, and all the Old Testament prophets, proclaiming His word, as YHWH, the Lord God.
Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.
1 Peter 1:10-11
Key Verse:
- the Spirit of Christ who was in them
The New Testament reveals that Jesus Christ is Lord, YHWH.
JLB