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An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

Consecrated Life said:
So Jesus was lying when He said he existed " before the world began " ?

"...glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee
before the world began. " ( John17:5 )
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Let me turn your argument back on you. Are you saying Paul is lying?

The word first means the one that comes before all others. If He was first then He was before the world was created
 
Butch5 said:
That Paul didnt say the Angel of the Lord in the Bush was Christ doesnt mean it wasn't Christ. That's an appeal to silence and fallacious.
I pointed out that Jesus quoted, "I am". As I said, it wouldn't be proper grammar. If you don't accept that, that's up to you.
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No, I don't find it reasonable in what you tie together as Jesus speaking to Moses. I also have given you the context of Jesus's reply. If you can't accept that as you state I also state, its up to you. I am as in I was or I existed "before" Abraham was born.
"Nobody" witnessed that Jesus was the Angel in the burning bush and that doesn't strengthen your case but weakens it for it would of been weighty testimony.

You can't know who that angel was as it wasn't given. We can reasonably assume Gods presence was there. "Holy Ground". It's also possible that presence was from the Holy Spirit.

So the only thing I know with certainty is that I don't know who that angel was.

So your free to believe it was Jesus but I don't know that to be so with any degree of certainty. I don't know is what I see.
 
Randy said:
No, I don't find it reasonable in what you tie together as Jesus speaking to Moses. I also have given you the context of Jesus's reply. If you can't accept that as you state I also state, its up to you. I am as in I was or I existed "before" Abraham was born.
"Nobody" witnessed that Jesus was the Angel in the burning bush and that doesn't strengthen your case but weakens it for it would of been weighty testimony.

You can't know who that angel was as it wasn't given. We can reasonably assume Gods presence was there. "Holy Ground". It's also possible that presence was from the Holy Spirit.

So the only thing I know with certainty is that I don't know who that angel was.

So your free to believe it was Jesus but I don't know that to be so with any degree of certainty. I don't know is what I see.
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As I've said multiple times. If Jesus was simply claiming to be alive when Abraham was, the correct grammar would be, 'before Abraham was, I was'. Saying 'before Abraham was, I am', would be incorrect grammar. Either it was incorrect grammar or it was a quote. They are the two options.
 
Butch5 said:
As I've said multiple times. If Jesus was simply claiming to be alive when Abraham was, the correct grammar would be, 'before Abraham was, I was'. Saying 'before Abraham was, I am', would be incorrect grammar. Either it was incorrect grammar or it was a quote. They are the two options.
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I don't think its incorrect grammar. And it conveys He was a witness of Abraham. Certainly more than 50 years old.
 
Butch5 said:
Let me turn your argument back on you. Are you saying Paul is lying?

The word first means the one that comes before all others. If He was first then He was before the world was created
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What business does a newly created being like Jesus have in saying he " shared " equal glory with the Father before the world was even created and he had done absolutely nothing ?

"...glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee
before the world began. " ( John17:5 )
 
Consecrated Life said:
What business does a newly created being like Jesus have in saying he " shared " equal glory with the Father before the world was even created and he had done absolutely nothing ?

"...glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee
before the world began. " ( John17:5 )
Click to expand...
He didn't say He was equal.

However, this is where the conversation breaks down. You no longer have argument. But, instead of just saying thank you for the discussion you're reverting to red herrings
 
theMadJW said:
I admire you, BUTCH5, it comes a time when you have to remember Jesus words about casting pearls.....
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Thanks! I've learned from years of discussions that all you can do is put the information out there. People will do with it as they see fit. Some will listen, some won't.
 
Butch5 said:
Ok. A Greek grammar will explain it.
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That doesn't prove Jesus spoke to Moses. As the Father by the Holy Spirit could state I AM.
This is the Father to me, "Then he said, “I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

He stays with God through a angel as is in the text. No mention of God through Jesus and acts 7 has the context of God the Father to me.

Acts 7 35-36
“This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.
 
Randy said:
That doesn't prove Jesus spoke to Moses. As the Father by the Holy Spirit could state I AM.
This is the Father to me, "Then he said, “I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob.” At this, Moses hid his face, because he was afraid to look at God.

He stays with God through a angel as is in the text. No mention of God through Jesus and acts 7 has the context of God the Father to me.

Acts 7 35-36
“This is the same Moses they had rejected with the words, ‘Who made you ruler and judge?’ He was sent to be their ruler and deliverer by God himself, through the angel who appeared to him in the bush. 36 He led them out of Egypt and performed wonders and signs in Egypt, at the Red Sea and for forty years in the wilderness.
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The grammar are the rules by which people communicate. If that doesn't prove it to you, I don't know. It couldn't have been the Father. If Moses was told to hide his face the implication is that there was something that wasn't to be looked upon. If there was something that Moses could see, there'd be no reason to hide his face. Well, no one can see the Father. So, that means the it couldn't have been the Father in the bush. It wasn't the Holy Spirit because a spirit can't be seen. That means it was either Jesus or another angel. Which ever it was they spoke in the first person, as if they were God. The only one I'm aware of that speaks in the first person for God is Jesus.
 
Butch5 said:
The Greek text has everything to do with it. If you research the history of the texts you'll find that the Hewbrew scholars who translated the Hebrew text into Greek approximately 250-300 years before Christ didn't translate it everlasting Father.

Here is a comparison of Isaiah 9:6 between the Masoretic text and the Great Isaiah Scroll from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center.

Examining Isaiah 9:6 from the Great Isaiah Scroll | AHRC

An examination of Isaiah 7:14 from the Masoretic text, Isaiah scroll and the Septuagint.
www.ancient-hebrew.org www.ancient-hebrew.org
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Jeff A Benner is not universally accepted as accurate in his interpretations without bias and when pressed, he is quoted as confessing "After many months of study I found my answer, Jesus truly was and is God in the flesh."
 
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