An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

[Butch5]

Yes, there is no reason to deny this.

After the incarnation Jesus said that the words He spoke were not His but the Father's. I see no reason think He did otherwise before hand. Also, He was called the Angel or messenger of the Lord. This would indicate that the message was not His.

 

[JLB]

When I said Jesus was the Angel of the Lord, I simply meant He was a messenger. I am not referring to what people commonly call an angel. The Greek word anggelos simply means a messenger. Jesus has appeared many times to bring the message of the Father to man. He brought the Gospel to man. As such that made Him an angel or messenger of the Lord.

Well said.


When we break down what an angel is, it becomes clearer.

• An angel is a messenger. A messenger brings a message (word).

Jesus Christ is the Word; God’s message of salvation.

• An angel is a son of God.

The Angel of God would be The Son of God.

• An angel is a spirit. The Angel of the Lord is the Spirit of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17








JLB

 

[JLB]

After the incarnation Jesus said that the words He spoke were not His but the Father's. I see no reason think He did otherwise before hand. Also, He was called the Angel or messenger of the Lord. This would indicate that the message was not His.

Jesus is the Word.


And the Word became flesh.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Well said.


When we break down what an angel is, it becomes clearer.

• An angel is a messenger. A messenger brings a message (word).

Jesus Christ is the Word; God’s message of salvation.

• An angel is a son of God.

The Angel of God would be The Son of God.

• An angel is a spirit. The Angel of the Lord is the Spirit of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17








JLB

I agree. I would submit though that an angel, messenger, could be a man. I believe the apostles could be called angels or messengers of the Lord.

 

[JLB]

I agree. I would submit though that an angel, messenger, could be a man. I believe the apostles could be called angels or messengers of the Lord.

Yes.


However, I believe The Word (Messenger) of God is the Lord God.


Messengers can be men or angels... or maybe a donkey!!!




JLB

 

[Randy]

When I said Jesus was the Angel of the Lord, I simply meant He was a messenger. I am not referring to what people commonly call an angel. The Greek word anggelos simply means a messenger. Jesus has appeared many times to bring the message of the Father to man. He brought the Gospel to man. As such that made Him an angel or messenger of the Lord.

And I meant Jesus wasn't in any form testified to be a angel of the Lord. God's presence in that bush could also have been by His Spirit. The Angel was not identified as Jesus. God's presence was certainly there as its written, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

I am aware of the Son of Man bringing the Fathers message to the world. He stated so. I am not with any degree of certainty aware of other appearances before the Incarnation.

 

[Randy]

John still referred to Jesus, the Son of Man, as the word of Life. Jesus was and is a being.

We declare to you what was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the word of life— 2 this life was revealed, and we have seen it and testify to it, and declare to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us— 3 we declare to you what we have seen and heard so that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 We are writing these things so that our joy may be complete.

Like Father Like Son
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness

The Son who was, His spirit, was in the body God prepared for Him.

"Father into your hands I commit My spirit"

And the Father is living in Him as they are one.
"The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

More than a messenger.

God with us.

Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”

26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”

 

[Butch5]

And I meant Jesus wasn't in any form testified to be a angel of the Lord. God's presence in that bush could also have been by His Spirit. The Angel was not identified as Jesus. God's presence was certainly there as its written, "Take off your sandals, for the place where you are standing is holy ground."

I am aware of the Son of Man bringing the Fathers message to the world. He stated so. I am not with any degree of certainty aware of other appearances before the Incarnation.

Jesus told the Jews it was He that spoke to Moses. That's why they wanted to stone Him. As I said, the word translated angel just means messenger.

 

[Randy]

Jesus told the Jews it was He that spoke to Moses. That's why they wanted to stone Him. As I said, the word translated angel just means messenger.

Jesus was not identified in the limited roll of messenger.(Angel) I know Moses wrote of Jesus. It certainly was within Jesus's authority and skill set for Him to speak Moses while he was in the body but can you share where Jesus stated He spoke to Moses so I can add that with certainty?

 

[Butch5]

Jesus was not identified in the limited roll of messenger.(Angel) I know Moses wrote of Jesus. It certainly was within Jesus's authority and skill set for Him to speak Moses while he was in the body but can you share where Jesus stated He spoke to Moses so I can add that with certainty?

In John when Jesus quoted "I am" He was alluding to the the burning bush. He said before Abraham, I am. That statement was in reply to, have you seen Abraham? He was implying that it was Him in the bush. He also sat and spoke with Abraham. Genesis 18 describes the conversation. He is called the Lord and He eats and converse with Abraham.

 

[Randy]

In John when Jesus quoted "I am" He was alluding to the the burning bush. He said before Abraham, I am. That statement was in reply to, have you seen Abraham? He was implying that it was Him in the bush. He also sat and spoke with Abraham. Genesis 18 describes the conversation. He is called the Lord and He eats and converse with Abraham.

I will state once more the word "before" is overlooked.
Jesus=>Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Jesus's accusers "You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
Jesus's reply, “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

That has nothing to do with Jesus speaking to Moses. Nor the context of the Fathers "I Am"

We both believe Jesus was in the beginning with the Father and therefore was before Abraham was born.

I think the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit was there in that burning bush with one of Gods angels. That is a possible answer. You can not teach with any degree of certainty that Jesus was the angel in the burning bush. Gods presence could very well be there by the Holy Spirit.

 

[theMadJW]

God the messenger for HIMSELF or THEMSELVES? How antichristian!

 

[Butch5]

I will state once more the word "before" is overlooked.
Jesus=>Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
Jesus's accusers "You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
Jesus's reply, “Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!”

That has nothing to do with Jesus speaking to Moses. Nor the context of the Fathers "I Am"

We both believe Jesus was in the beginning with the Father and therefore was before Abraham was born.

I think the Spirit of God or Holy Spirit was there in that burning bush with one of Gods angels. That is a possible answer. You can not teach with any degree of certainty that Jesus was the angel in the burning bush. Gods presence could very well be there by the Holy Spirit.

It's a quote. "I am" is a quote. Proper grammar would be, before Abraham was, I was. This would indicate Jesus saying He existed before Abraham. Saying before Abraham was, "I am" would not be proper grammar. That shows us that He is quoting Exodus. It wouldn't bother the Jews if Jesus claimed to be thousands of years old. They may question his sanity, but it wouldn't mean anything to them. However, claiming to be the "I am" who spoke to Moses would be, in their eyes, blasphemy. That is why they wanted to stone Him.

Is your question related specifically to the bush or are you looking for evidence of Christ working before the incarnation?

 

[theMadJW]

Jesus was quoting EX 3- since the true meaning is "I will prove to be" or something similar.
So, from Churchianity's standpoint, he was speaking e-bonics...

 

[Consecrated Life]

I only pointed to the sitting down at the right hand to show there were two.

Regarding the work, sure, He met with Abraham. All of chapter 18 of Genesis is about the Lord meeting with Abraham. He spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush. In John 8:58 Jesus said He was I am.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (Jn. 8:56-9:1 KJV)

Notice Jesus said, before "Abraham was, I am". He used the present tense. He didn't say before Abraham was, I was. He said I am. That's what the Angel of the Lord said in the Burning Bush. Tell him I am sent you.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exod. 3:14 KJV)

Jesus was claiming that He was the one who spoke to Moses from the Bush

The Rock that followed Israel through the wilderness was Christ.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Cor. 10:1-4 KJV)

There are plenty of examples of Christ moving throughout the Old Testament

That's fine, but if His purpose pre-Bethlehem was what you say what the heck was he doing for the millions, billions of years before the world even existed ?
You think maybe, that just being created Himself, He needed a few millions years of training before the World's creation?
You think maybe that is why He was not allowed to " sit down on the right hand of Majesty " for all those millions, billions of years ?
Just being the young wet behind the ears, upstart son that He was after first being created?
I know that you know just about everything right now , but do you think when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of everything there is to know about the intimate relationship between God and His beloved Son ?


"...glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee
before the world began. " ( John17:5 )

 

[theMadJW]

Heb 12:2- looking unto Jesus the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising shame, and hath sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[Randy]

It's a quote. "I am" is a quote. Proper grammar would be, before Abraham was, I was. This would indicate Jesus saying He existed before Abraham. Saying before Abraham was, "I am" would not be proper grammar. That shows us that He is quoting Exodus. It wouldn't bother the Jews if Jesus claimed to be thousands of years old. They may question his sanity, but it wouldn't mean anything to them. However, claiming to be the "I am" who spoke to Moses would be, in their eyes, blasphemy. That is why they wanted to stone Him.

Is your question related specifically to the bush or are you looking for evidence of Christ working before the incarnation?

Its "before" Abraham was born "I am" That is not I AM that I AM. or just I AM
Jesus stated, (context witness), that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced. That's why they asked with sarcasm and unbelief "you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham?"

Jesus was very thorough on the road to Emmaus with Cleopas and his companion explaining the scripture starting with Moses that spoke of Him. ( And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.) If Jesus was the Angel in the burning bush that would be weight for the testimony. The writer of Hebrews had citations from all over the Holy Scriptures about Jesus. Yet not one made any mention of Jesus being the Angel in that burning bush.

Gods firstborn would be a being not a people or Word or radiance and such a being would make such a statement, "before Abraham was born I am"

​

 

[theMadJW]

We all Three, heh, the I AM?

 

[Butch5]

That's fine, but if His purpose pre-Bethlehem was what you say what the heck was he doing for the millions, billions of years before the world even existed ?
You think maybe, that just being created Himself, He needed a few millions years of training before the World's creation?
You think maybe that is why He was not allowed to " sit down on the right hand of Majesty " for all those millions, billions of years ?
Just being the young wet behind the ears, upstart son that He was after first being created?
I know that you know just about everything right now , but do you think when you get to heaven you will have full knowledge of everything there is to know about the intimate relationship between God and His beloved Son ?


"...glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee
before the world began. " ( John17:5 )

What millions and billions of years are you talking about? Paul said Jesus was the first born of all creation.

Also, I'd submit that people don't go to Heaven. That's not in Scriptures

 

[Butch5]

Its "before" Abraham was born "I am" That is not I AM that I AM. or just I AM
Jesus stated, (context witness), that Abraham saw His day and rejoiced. That's why they asked with sarcasm and unbelief "you are not yet 50 years old and you have seen Abraham?"

Jesus was very thorough on the road to Emmaus with Cleopas and his companion explaining the scripture starting with Moses that spoke of Him. ( And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.) If Jesus was the Angel in the burning bush that would be weight for the testimony. The writer of Hebrews had citations from all over the Holy Scriptures about Jesus. Yet not one made any mention of Jesus being the Angel in that burning bush.

Gods firstborn would be a being not a people or Word or radiance and such a being would make such a statement, "before Abraham was born I am"

​

That Paul didnt say the Angel of the Lord in the Bush was Christ doesnt mean it wasn't Christ. That's an appeal to silence and fallacious.
I pointed out that Jesus quoted, "I am". As I said, it wouldn't be proper grammar. If you don't accept that, that's up to you.