Butch5
Member
Your argument is a red herring. It has nothing to do with Whether or not Jesus is God.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB
- Thread starter theMadJW
- Start date
You never will; the Catholic Theologians who fabricated it labeled it a, heh "Sacred Mystery"- remember!
It was designed to confuse, for the 'Church' had to have meaning!
!
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Butch5
Member
He probably is. However, that doesn't mean we should understand something in a way that is a logical contradiction, especially when there is a logical answer. The (Modern) concept of the Trinity is from the mind of men. If we take the Scriptures at face value we have the Shema stated right in Scripture.
Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: (Deut. 6:4 KJV)
Do we believe this? If so why do we continue to argue against it? Paul believed it. writing to Christians he said,
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.(1 Cor. 8:6 KJV)
Again, if we believe this, why do we argue against it?
Butch5
Member
Yeah, I'm aware of some of the tactics used early on as the church and state merged. They had to control the masses so there were certain things done that should never have been done.
Consecrated Life
Member
It's not that complicated Butch , no right or wrong answer, just how much of God's glory do you think Jesus is claiming he shared with God before he had even lifted a finger to help ?
Don't be scared, just respect the text .
"...glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee
before the world began. " ( John17:5 )
daninthelionsden
Member
Thomas fell to his knees and said "My Lord AND my God."
Butch5
Member
A lot of Christians believe and will say that unless you believe the Trinity doctrine, of one God in three, coequal, coeternal, persons you can't be a Christian. Why do they say that? It's not in the Bible. Here's why they say it.
Athanasian Creed, approx. 450 AD.
Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.
Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.
For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.
But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.
Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.
The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.
Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.
Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.
Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.
And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.
Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.
It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.
For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son, is both God and man.
He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother — existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.
Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.
He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.
He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.
For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.
He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
It
Those who have done good will enter eternal life, those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith.
One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.
Anyone who reads this will see it's logically contradictory. Three cannot be one. It says the Father, Son, and Holy Sprit are all eternal but they are not three eternal beings, but one. That's a logical contradiction. That's why no one can explain it. So, how could they get people to believe this? Keep the Scriptures from them and tell them if you don't believe this you're going to burn in hell for eternity. It's not hard to see how those uneducated masses came to accept this. It became church dogma in the Catholic church and has been preached ever since. There's nothing in the Bible that say one has to believe in the Trinity to be saved. The Bible says one must believe that Jesus is the Christ to be saved.
What was believed before that? The Nicene Creed.
We believe in one God, the Father, Ruler of All,
Maker of all things visible and invisible;
And we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
Begotten of the Father as only begotten,
That is, from the essence of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
Begotten, not created, of the same essence as the Father,
Through whom all things came into being, both in heaven and in earth;
Who for us and for our salvation came down,
And was incarnate, being made a man.
He suffered and the third day he rose.
And he ascended into the heavens.
And he will come to judge the living and the dead.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit. Amen.
This is the first church creed concerning the relation of the Father and the Son. Notice they believed what Paul believed. They believed in one God, the Father. Notice too that they believed that Jesus was God from God. Literally God out of God. We find Jesus said that same thing.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Jn. 8:42 KJV)
Literally, came out of God.
We can see how their ideas changed over a short period of time. If you look at the 381 AD. revision of the Nicene Creed you can see how they moved a little closer to the Athanasian Creed.
Athanasian Creed, approx. 450 AD.
Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.
Whoever does not guard it whole and inviolable will doubtless perish eternally.
Now this is the catholic faith: We worship one God in trinity and the Trinity in unity, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the divine being.
For the Father is one person, the Son is another, and the Spirit is still another.
But the deity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one, equal in glory, coeternal in majesty.
What the Father is, the Son is, and so is the Holy Spirit.
Uncreated is the Father; uncreated is the Son; uncreated is the Spirit.
The Father is infinite; the Son is infinite; the Holy Spirit is infinite.
Eternal is the Father; eternal is the Son; eternal is the Spirit: And yet there are not three eternal beings, but one who is eternal; as there are not three uncreated and unlimited beings, but one who is uncreated and unlimited.
Almighty is the Father; almighty is the Son; almighty is the Spirit: And yet there are not three almighty beings, but one who is almighty.
Thus the Father is God; the Son is God; the Holy Spirit is God: And yet there are not three gods, but one God.
Thus the Father is Lord; the Son is Lord; the Holy Spirit is Lord: And yet there are not three lords, but one Lord.
As Christian truth compels us to acknowledge each distinct person as God and Lord, so catholic religion forbids us to say that there are three gods or lords.
The Father was neither made nor created nor begotten; the Son was neither made nor created, but was alone begotten of the Father; the Spirit was neither made nor created, but is proceeding from the Father and the Son.
Thus there is one Father, not three fathers; one Son, not three sons; one Holy Spirit, not three spirits.
And in this Trinity, no one is before or after, greater or less than the other; but all three persons are in themselves, coeternal and coequal; and so we must worship the Trinity in unity and the one God in three persons.
Whoever wants to be saved should think thus about the Trinity.
It is necessary for eternal salvation that one also faithfully believe that our Lord Jesus Christ became flesh.
For this is the true faith that we believe and confess: That our Lord Jesus Christ, God’s Son, is both God and man.
He is God, begotten before all worlds from the being of the Father, and he is man, born in the world from the being of his mother — existing fully as God, and fully as man with a rational soul and a human body; equal to the Father in divinity, subordinate to the Father in humanity.
Although he is God and man, he is not divided, but is one Christ.
He is united because God has taken humanity into himself; he does not transform deity into humanity.
He is completely one in the unity of his person, without confusing his natures.
For as the rational soul and body are one person, so the one Christ is God and man.
He suffered death for our salvation. He descended into hell and rose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
It
Those who have done good will enter eternal life, those who have done evil will enter eternal fire.
This is the catholic faith.
One cannot be saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.
Anyone who reads this will see it's logically contradictory. Three cannot be one. It says the Father, Son, and Holy Sprit are all eternal but they are not three eternal beings, but one. That's a logical contradiction. That's why no one can explain it. So, how could they get people to believe this? Keep the Scriptures from them and tell them if you don't believe this you're going to burn in hell for eternity. It's not hard to see how those uneducated masses came to accept this. It became church dogma in the Catholic church and has been preached ever since. There's nothing in the Bible that say one has to believe in the Trinity to be saved. The Bible says one must believe that Jesus is the Christ to be saved.
What was believed before that? The Nicene Creed.
THE NICENE CREED (A.D. 325)
We believe in one God, the Father, Ruler of All,Maker of all things visible and invisible;
And we believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God,
Begotten of the Father as only begotten,
That is, from the essence of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
Begotten, not created, of the same essence as the Father,
Through whom all things came into being, both in heaven and in earth;
Who for us and for our salvation came down,
And was incarnate, being made a man.
He suffered and the third day he rose.
And he ascended into the heavens.
And he will come to judge the living and the dead.
And we believe in the Holy Spirit. Amen.
This is the first church creed concerning the relation of the Father and the Son. Notice they believed what Paul believed. They believed in one God, the Father. Notice too that they believed that Jesus was God from God. Literally God out of God. We find Jesus said that same thing.
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. (Jn. 8:42 KJV)
Literally, came out of God.
We can see how their ideas changed over a short period of time. If you look at the 381 AD. revision of the Nicene Creed you can see how they moved a little closer to the Athanasian Creed.
Butch5
Member
Yes, He did. Jesus was Deity just as the Father is Deity. The Greek word theos means deity.
daninthelionsden
Member
Asking Butch this question. You've already answered this before using JW propaganda.
daninthelionsden
Member
Who exactly are you saying Jesus is then?
Butch5
Member
Dude, there's no point in this line of questioning. If Jesus had wanted to give a number He could have. It's irrelevant to the subject at hand. It's a red herring, a distraction.
Butch5
Member
He is the Son of God, the Father.
daninthelionsden
Member
So you are saying God the Father, but
god the Son?
daninthelionsden
Member
You show yourself to be non-Christian through your total lack of having any manifestations of the fruits of the Spirit.
Butch5
Member
What does that mean?
daninthelionsden
Member
The Son is either God or god. You say He is a deity, so which is He?
Butch5
Member
It's the same word. You've just capitalized it. What is your implication? The word translated God, is theos. It means deity. Jesus is Deity. The Father is Deity. They are two different beings.
"You show yourself to be non-Christian through your total lack of having any manifestations of the fruits of the Spirit"
"I suppose you would be as Judgmental with Elijah~
BTW- Christ was showing the same with the teaching of the Rich man and Lazarus!
"I suppose you would be as Judgmental with Elijah~
BTW- Christ was showing the same with the teaching of the Rich man and Lazarus!
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