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An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

theMadJW

 
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Still pretending I see
Pretending that you did not see the last words of the verse, " from everlasting " ?

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Small 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Exactly how long is " everlasting " do you think ?
Or would you prefer to continue pretending you never saw the word ?
From - https://biblehub.com/micah/5-2.htm#lexicon

1620084075043.png

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Conveys at time beyond man!
"Origin" and "Going Forth" mean the same.
 

Butch5

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I define God (Elohim) as Creator.


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 1:26



JLB
I'm not asking who. I'm asking what? You said God begets God like human begets human. That's substance, it's a what not a who. In this above post you said God is a who. This is where I find that the confusion comes in. When we go back and forth between God who, and God what, indiscriminately, we wind up going in circles. If God begets God as substance (I agree) then whatever the Father is the Son is. The act of begetting produces another of the same kind. So, now we have two samples of whatever God is.

The Greek word for god is theos, it means deity. We can't define it as Elohim because the Bible calls Baal and Molech god or theos If we define god or theos as Elohim then that would present a problem because Baal and Molech are not Elohim
 
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Only God Himself is "everlasting" .
Let me ask you a question, when you get to heaven do you believe you will be conscious of every intimate detail of the relationship between Jesus Christ and the Father ?
That is a Yes or a No ?

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Jhn 14:9
Jesus saith unto him,... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
 

Butch5

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Still pretending I see
Pretending that you did not see the last words of the verse, " from everlasting " ?

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Small 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Exactly how long is " everlasting " do you think ?
Or would you prefer to continue pretending you never saw the word ?
Hi Consecrated,

The word doesn't mean everlasting. The Hebrew means long duration and the Greek means an age. This is a case of translator bias. Translators tend to let their beliefs influence their translation.
 
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Hi Consecrated,

The word doesn't mean everlasting. The Hebrew means long duration and the Greek means an age. This is a case of translator bias. Translators tend to let their beliefs influence their translation.
I see , much like this biased statement that Jesus supposedly made ?:


Jhn 14:9
"Jesus saith unto him,... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father "

Since you seem to have in depth knowledge of proper biblical translations could you give me the real unbiased meaning of Jhn 14:9 ?
Thank You .
 

Butch5

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I see , much like this biased statement that Jesus supposedly made ?:


Jhn 14:9
"Jesus saith unto him,... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father "

Since you seem to have in depth knowledge of proper biblical translations could you give me the real unbiased meaning of Jhn 14:9 ?
Thank You .
Sure! Jesus said He had come to do the Father's will. They were one in purpose. The things He did were the expression of the Father. Paul said that Jesus was the express image of the Father. An image of something isn't the thing itself.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Heb. 1:1-3 KJV)


That He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high shows He is not the Father.
 
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3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Heb. 1:1-3 KJV)


That He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high shows He is not the Father.
Well lets not just nibble around the edges of this sitting down issue Butch, this is a key point,
Lets unpack this all the way, shall we?
Where do suppose Jesus " sat down " before He came in the flesh as a baby?
And if He was not sitting down next to the Majesty before He came in flesh as a baby, what does that make Him in relation to the Father during those few millions of years ?
After all if He existed before the creation of the universe that would add up to many moons before he ever put on any baby flesh , right ?
Do you think He was standing up all that time ?
You think maybe He was sitting on the left side of Majesty during that time ?
 

Butch5

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Well lets not just nibble around the edges of this sitting issue Butch, this is a key point,
Lets unpack this all the way, shall we?
Where do suppose Jesus " sat down " before He came in the flesh as a baby?
And if He was not sitting down next to the Majesty before He came in flesh as a baby, what does that make Him in relation to the Father during those few millions of years ?
After all if He existed before the creation of the universe that would add up to many moons before he ever put on any baby flesh , right ?
Do you think He was standing up all that time ?
You think maybe He was sitting on the left side of Majesty during that time ?
Well, Paul said Jesus was the first born of all creation. That statement would seem to indicate that He was begotten of the Father at the beginning of creation. We're not told exactly when though.

That makes Him God's Son.

What He was doing was creating all things and interacting with the creation as God's messenger. In many cases the Angel of the Lord was Jesus
 
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Well, Paul said Jesus was the first born of all creation. That statement would seem to indicate that He was begotten of the Father at the beginning of creation. We're not told exactly when though.

That makes Him God's Son.

What He was doing was creating all things and interacting with the creation as God's messenger. In many cases the Angel of the Lord was Jesus
It's your understanding that " first born of all creation " means He was busy as a bee running around " creating " things ?
lol !
Really ?
Your kidding me right ?
Boy I'll bet He got tired of that after about 17 million years give or take .

Seriously where did you think He sat down immediately after he was begotten of the Father ?
Left hand ? Right hand ?
After all a heck of a lot more time went by between the time He was begotten until He was crucified, than from the time
He was crucified until now .
That was just a blink of an eye 2000 years ago.
He must have sat down somewhere, even if only for a few thousand years, correct ?
Or do you think He stood up all that time ?
 

Butch5

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It's your understanding that " first born of all creation " means He was busy as a bee running around " creating " things ?
lol !
Really ?
Your kidding me right ?
Boy I'll bet He got tired of that after about 17 million years give or take .

Seriously where did you think He sat down immediately after he was begotten of the Father ?
Left hand ? Right hand ?
After all a heck of a lot more time went by between the time He was begotten until He was crucified, than from the time
He was crucified until now .
That was just a blink of an eye 2000 years ago.
He must have sat down somewhere, even if only for a few thousand years, correct ?
Or do you think He stood up all that time ?
No, my understanding of "first born of all creation" doesn't mean He was doing things. Paul said Jesus was the first born of all creation. That would indicate that He wasn't there for millions of years prior to the creation. However, from creation to the incarnation He created creation and was in it doing the work of God. I think you're being facetious as to whether He was sitting or standing.
 
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No, my understanding of "first born of all creation" doesn't mean He was doing things. Paul said Jesus was the first born of all creation. That would indicate that He wasn't there for millions of years prior to the creation. However, from creation to the incarnation He created creation and was in it doing the work of God. I think you're being facetious as to whether He was sitting or standing.
You are the one who cited to me His post Calvary " sitting down " as proof of His estate .
Seems to me then that examining His heavenly posture pre-Bethlehem could prove very informative as well, don't you think ?
Can you give a biblical example of Him " doing the work of God " you are referring to in between creation and incarnation ?
 

Butch5

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You are the one who cited to me His post Calvary " sitting down " as proof of His estate .
Seems to me then that examining His heavenly posture pre-Bethlehem could prove very informative as well, don't you think ?
Can you give a biblical example of Him " doing the work of God " you are referring to in between creation and incarnation ?
I only pointed to the sitting down at the right hand to show there were two.

Regarding the work, sure, He met with Abraham. All of chapter 18 of Genesis is about the Lord meeting with Abraham. He spoke to Moses in the Burning Bush. In John 8:58 Jesus said He was I am.

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. (Jn. 8:56-9:1 KJV)


Notice Jesus said, before "Abraham was, I am". He used the present tense. He didn't say before Abraham was, I was. He said I am. That's what the Angel of the Lord said in the Burning Bush. Tell him I am sent you.

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. (Exod. 3:14 KJV)

Jesus was claiming that He was the one who spoke to Moses from the Bush

The Rock that followed Israel through the wilderness was Christ.

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Cor. 10:1-4 KJV)


There are plenty of examples of Christ moving throughout the Old Testament
 
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Actually, there is. There is a lot to understand. One just has to have an open mind. If one cannot reconcile the Scriptures they have something wrong. If you look at the Hebrew and Greek texts, you'll find that they don't say 'everlasting Father'
Greek has nothing to do with the Old Testament. The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Great Isaiah Scroll in particular, refers to Christ in names including (as in Isaiah 9:6) as elgibor - meaning Godwarrior and again as aviyad meaning Fatherforever.
 

JLB

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If God begets God as substance (I agree) then whatever the Father is the Son is.

I agree.


Do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord; the Lord God?


Not God the Father, but the Lord God of the Old Testament who spoke through the prophets and became flesh?



JLB
 

Randy

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No, my understanding of "first born of all creation" doesn't mean He was doing things. Paul said Jesus was the first born of all creation. That would indicate that He wasn't there for millions of years prior to the creation. However, from creation to the incarnation He created creation and was in it doing the work of God. I think you're being facetious as to whether He was sitting or standing.
The Firstborn of all creation is the firstborn of all things created or the first of Gods works. Before all other things except His God the Father. His spirit was formed. The fullness was not formed but gifted. As in the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. Jesus is not nor ever has been a angel. Hebrews goes into great detail to state this, "about the Son".

In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

The name Jesus inherited from the Father is Mighty God.

You have overlooked the Spirit of God. I think the Spirit of God was there with one of Gods Angels in that burning bush.

This is cohesive with Hebrews 1

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

ONENESS
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them
 

Butch5

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Greek has nothing to do with the Old Testament. The Dead Sea Scrolls, The Great Isaiah Scroll in particular, refers to Christ in names including (as in Isaiah 9:6) as elgibor - meaning Godwarrior and again as aviyad meaning Fatherforever.
The Greek text has everything to do with it. If you research the history of the texts you'll find that the Hewbrew scholars who translated the Hebrew text into Greek approximately 250-300 years before Christ didn't translate it everlasting Father.

Here is a comparison of Isaiah 9:6 between the Masoretic text and the Great Isaiah Scroll from the Ancient Hebrew Research Center.

 

Butch5

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I agree.


Do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord; the Lord God?


Not God the Father, but the Lord God of the Old Testament who spoke through the prophets and became flesh?



JLB
Yes, I beleive Jesus is the Lord who spoke through the Old Testamenr Prophets. However, I believe what He spoke were the words of the Father. I don't beleive He was speaking of His own initiative.
 

Butch5

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The Firstborn of all creation is the firstborn of all things created or the first of Gods works. Before all other things except His God the Father. His spirit was formed. The fullness was not formed but gifted. As in the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. Jesus is not nor ever has been a angel. Hebrews goes into great detail to state this, "about the Son".

In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

The name Jesus inherited from the Father is Mighty God.

You have overlooked the Spirit of God. I think the Spirit of God was there with one of Gods Angels in that burning bush.

This is cohesive with Hebrews 1

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. 19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

ONENESS
Jesus replied, "Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them
When I said Jesus was the Angel of the Lord, I simply meant He was a messenger. I am not referring to what people commonly call an angel. The Greek word anggelos simply means a messenger. Jesus has appeared many times to bring the message of the Father to man. He brought the Gospel to man. As such that made Him an angel or messenger of the Lord.
 
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JLB

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I believe what He spoke were the words of the Father. I don't beleive He was speaking of His own initiative.


Yes, there is no reason to deny this.
 
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