An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

[Consecrated Life]

The Bible tells us He has a beginning.

What does it tell you about the beginning of the " Word " ?

 

[Butch5]

What does it tell you about the beginning of the " Word " ?

He was born

 

[daninthelionsden]

But that's you opinion. The Bible shows us otherwise. As we see in Gen 19 there is Jehovah on earth and Jehovah in Heaven. No matter how you do the math, that's two.

I do have a question though. With the overwhelming amount of evidence presented in this thread, why would you still hold to an idea that is found no where in Scripture? At the very least why wouldn't you at least question it?

I have. I joined a cult in my early adult years named The Way International. I had to renounce my belief in the Holy Trinity. They made sure each member did that at some point in front of the other members. I had avoided it for months, but was left with no wriggle room and had to do it. As soon as I could, I excused myself because I felt physically sick down to my soul. I walked out to a park and sat on the ground and begged God for forgiveness. After a few more months I realized I could not continue in this contradiction and left that cult. I had to get law enforcement to help me escape after telling the cult I believed Christ was God and would never renounce my Lord ever again. I fully realize I could die one day for Christ.

 

[JLB]

I believe that if Jesus Christ did not come forth from the grave there would be no hope for me or you .

I agree.


Do you believe Jesus Christ is Lord; the Lord God?


I do. I can provide scripture if you would like to discuss them?





JLB

 

[Butch5]

I have. I joined a cult in my early adult years named The Way International. I had to renounce my belief in the Holy Trinity. They made sure each member did that at some point in front of the other members. I had avoided it for months, but was left with no wriggle room and had to do it. As soon as I could, I excused myself because I felt physically sick down to my soul. I walked out to a park and sat on the ground and begged God for forgiveness. After a few more months I realized I could not continue in this contradiction and left that cult. I had to get law enforcement to help me escape after telling the cult I believed Christ was God and would never renounce my Lord ever again. I fully realize I could die one day for Christ.

When someone tells you you must believe this or else, that's a clue to head out the door. However, this 3 in 1 idea is found nowhere in Scripture. To disagree with it isn't renouncing Christ. The Bible doesn't even mention a Trjnity let alone make it a requirement for salvation. The Bible requires that one beleive that Jesus is the Christ. But the Bible clearly tells us that the Father and Son are two different beings.

What's ironic is, you said the cult required you to beleive certain things like no Trinity. Yet, the guys who put forth this 3 in 1 God idea did the very say thing. Here's how it starts.

"Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally"

and this is how it ends.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully

They did the same thing. They said unless you believe what we say you can't be saved. So, they took some new idea that previous Christians didn't believe, wrote a creed, and said if you don't beleive what we say you can't be saved. I wonder if they were considered a cult back then.

 

[JLB]

The Bible doesn't even mention a Trjnity let alone make it a requirement for salvation.

Amen. That’s the reason I don’t refer to the Trinity, but rather I use the word Godhead.


The emphasis is on Jesus and confessing Him as Lord to be saved. I believe we can all agree on this.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So the only question that remains is;

Do we believe and confess Jesus as Lord; the Lord the Bible refers to?


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13


Contextually this verse is a quote from Joel, and is referring to YHWH, the Lord God.


Clearly we see Paul teaching us that confessing Jesus as Lord, the Lord God of the scriptures is how we become saved.

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Some sects believe Jesus is lord, as referring to a man in position of authority, such as Abraham’s wife referred to him as lord. They however deny that Jesus is Lord; the Lord God of the scriptures.




JLB

 

[JLB]

So, they took some new idea that previous Christians didn't believe, wrote a creed, and said if you don't beleive what we say you can't be saved. I wonder if they were considered a cult back then.

I agree. We don’t follow creeds or cult beliefs.


We do however follow what the scriptures teach.





JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

The religious authorities of His day where made enraged and thirsty for His blood for His doing what scripture, which cannot lie, says only God Himself can do :

Mar 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Who can forgive sins but God Alone ?

 

[Randy]

I agree. We don’t follow creeds or cult beliefs.


We do however follow what the scriptures teach.





JLB

Yes, I believe that I follow and state that I know the Jesus of the NT.
I have loved Jesus and prayed to Jesus as far back as my memory goes
Jude
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen

One God the Father from whom all things come and for whom we live
One Lord Jesus Christ who is before all things and in whom the fullness of the Fathers Deity dwells -the radiance of Gods glory and the exact representation of Gods being-the image of the invisible God through whom and for whom all things were made

Jesus - you believe in God believe also in me

 

[Butch5]

The religious authorities of His day where made enraged and thirsty for His blood for His doing what scripture, which cannot lie, says only God Himself can do :

Mar 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Who can forgive sins but God Alone ?

Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins.

 

[Butch5]

Amen. That’s the reason I don’t refer to the Trinity, but rather I use the word Godhead.


The emphasis is on Jesus and confessing Him as Lord to be saved. I believe we can all agree on this.


that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Romans 10:9-10

• if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So the only question that remains is;

Do we believe and confess Jesus as Lord; the Lord the Bible refers to?


For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”
Romans 10:13


Contextually this verse is a quote from Joel, and is referring to YHWH, the Lord God.


Clearly we see Paul teaching us that confessing Jesus as Lord, the Lord God of the scriptures is how we become saved.

• For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

Some sects believe Jesus is lord, as referring to a man in position of authority, such as Abraham’s wife referred to him as lord. They however deny that Jesus is Lord; the Lord God of the scriptures.




JLB

The majority of times the Bible speaks of God, it is the Father. There are a few times where Jesus is referred to as God.
The way I understand it is that there is one being called the Father, who is God, Deity, and also Lord. There is one being called the Son, who is God, Deity, who is also called Lord. These are two separate beings, with the Son, being subordinate to the Father. While Jesus is Lord, the Father is the ultimate Lord and the Lord if Jesus. Likewise, the Son is God or Deity, but the Father is the ultimate God or Deity. The Father is the God or Deity of Jesus. So, while the Bible acknowledges the Father as God, Deity, and the Son as God, Deity, The Father is the ultimate God or Deity. So, when the Bible says there is one God, it is referring to the Father. He is the ultimate authority.

 

[Consecrated Life]

Jesus gave the apostles the authority to forgive sins.

And in whose name & by whose power did they call upon when they did so ?

Why are you afraid to post their words ?

 

[Butch5]

And in whose name & by whose power did they call upon when they did so ?

Why are you afraid to post their words ?

They did it with Jesus' authority, which was given to Him by the Father. However, that's not what you said. You said the Scriptures tell us that only God can forgive sins. However, the passage you posted is a question not a statement. Apart from that, however, Ignoring all of the evidence that has been presented and posting what you think supports your position is a fallacy called Cherry Picking. It's an error in reasoning.

 

[Consecrated Life]

They did it with Jesus' authority

Exactly, they were authorized to call upon the name of Jesus Christ to perform what even Christ's bloodthirsty enemies knew the scriptures declared only God Himself could do alone .
Glad you finally tuned in .

Mar 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

 

[daninthelionsden]

When someone tells you you must believe this or else, that's a clue to head out the door. However, this 3 in 1 idea is found nowhere in Scripture. To disagree with it isn't renouncing Christ. The Bible doesn't even mention a Trjnity let alone make it a requirement for salvation. The Bible requires that one beleive that Jesus is the Christ. But the Bible clearly tells us that the Father and Son are two different beings.

What's ironic is, you said the cult required you to beleive certain things like no Trinity. Yet, the guys who put forth this 3 in 1 God idea did the very say thing. Here's how it starts.

"Whoever desires to be saved should above all hold to the catholic faith.
Anyone who does not keep it whole and unbroken will doubtless perish eternally"

and this is how it ends.

This is the catholic faith:
one cannot be saved without believing it firmly and faithfully

They did the same thing. They said unless you believe what we say you can't be saved. So, they took some new idea that previous Christians didn't believe, wrote a creed, and said if you don't beleive what we say you can't be saved. I wonder if they were considered a cult back then.

The difference is, I could've been killed by the cult for believing Christ is God Himself and may very well face death again for believing so.

 

[JLB]

The majority of times the Bible speaks of God, it is the Father.

Yes this seems to be the case in the New Testament.


You would be surprised when reading the Old Testament the times it is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.



Example;


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


This is Christ speaking through the prophet Zechariah.


Everywhere we see the LORD, YHWH, speaking through a prophet it is the Lord Jesus Christ by His Spirit, speaking.



JLB

 

[Butch5]

Yes this seems to be the case in the New Testament.


You would be surprised when reading the Old Testament the times it is referring to the Lord Jesus Christ.



Example;


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


This is Christ speaking through the prophet Zechariah.


Everywhere we see the LORD, YHWH, speaking through a prophet it is the Lord Jesus Christ by His Spirit, speaking.



JLB

I believe what we see there is Jesus speaking God's word to the prophet. When Jesus says, thus saith the Lord, He is speaking for God.

 

[Butch5]

Exactly, they were authorized to call upon the name of Jesus Christ to perform what even Christ's bloodthirsty enemies knew the scriptures declared only God Himself could do alone .
Glad you finally tuned in .

Mar 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Again, you try to prove your point with a question. You can't prove something with a question. That requires a fact. A question is not a fact. However, that authority to forgive sins was given to Christ by the Father. Jesus said all authority had been given to Him. If He is the ultimate God, who gave Him that authority? One can only be given authority from one who is higher in authority.

 

[JLB]

I believe what we see there is Jesus speaking God's word to the prophet. When Jesus says, thus saith the Lord, He is speaking for God.

Indeed Jesus is the Word.

But my statement remains.

Whenever we see the phrase thus says the LORD, we know it is Christ speaking, for He is YHWH.

Zechariah was speaking by the the Spirit of Christ.

Jesus is God, the Son; the Son of God, not God the Father.


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1


It was the Son who became flesh.


“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10



Peter says it this way —


Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:10




JLB

 

[Consecrated Life]

Again, you try to prove your point with a question. You can't prove something with a question. That requires a fact. A question is not a fact. However, that authority to forgive sins was given to Christ by the Father. Jesus said all authority had been given to Him. If He is the ultimate God, who gave Him that authority? One can only be given authority from one who is higher in authority.

If Jesus had called upon the Father when forgave sins the religious leaders would have been much less enraged & thirsty for His blood .
This was the difference .
His apostles were required to call upon God, Jesus, to forgive sins , Jesus, being God, never called upon another, but forgave sins of His own power .
For this blasphemy they sought to kill Him.
The details still remain illusive for you I see but you are getting closer .
Keep up the effort .

Mar 2:7
Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?