The Jews that were about to stone Jesus to death for taking the name I AM, thought He was committing blasphemy.
JLB
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
-
Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB
- Thread starter theMadJW
- Start date
The Jews that were about to stone Jesus to death for taking the name I AM, thought He was committing blasphemy.
JLB
John 8:54- Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, he of whom you say, ‘He is our God,’ 55-though you do not know him. But I know him; if I would say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you. But I do know him and I keep his word. 56- Your ancestor Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day; he saw it and was glad.” 57- Then the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58- Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, before Abraham was, I am.” [ Realy "I existed"] 59-So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.
I said that contrary to your normal translations, God told Moses his SYMBOLIC Name He only used once- and it is something like "I will prove to prove to be", and then he told us what His REAL name was, and that it will forever be- JEHOVAH, not Jesus.
The original Hebrew name of God re-discovered in 1,000 Bible manuscripts
On January 21, 2018, Bible Scholar Nehemia Gordon and his team of researchers discovered the 1,000th Hebrew Bible manuscript containing the original name of God in Hebrew with vowels.religionnews.com
Judas and others said "ego eimi"- and NOT ONE VERSE pretends to read as John 8:58 in your Bibles.
He ANSWERED the question- before Abraham's time he EXISTED. Your standard translations have him speaking in e-bonics!
Where is your answer? It’s not in post 28.
I don’t see where you answered my question in this post, which was —
Who was speaking to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15 ?
The Father or the Son?
Your answer is not found in post 28.
Just answer the question if you know, if you don’t know that’s ok just say I don’t know.
Was it the Father; God the Father
or His Son Jesus Christ, before He became flesh?
Here is my answer:
It was the Son of God, Jesus Christ before He became flesh speaking to Moses in Exodus 3:14-15, from the burning bush.
JLB
Wow you added [ Realy "I existed"] to the verse and claim I added words to the Bible.
I must insist that you clarify which version of the Bible you are using please.
JLB
tigger 2
Member
As for the charge that the Jews were going to stone him because he claimed to be God, we should be aware that the Jews stoned people for many offenses. For example, a person pretending to be a “wizard” was to be stoned to death according to the Law (Lev. 20:27 - KJV, RSV, ASV, LB). Today’s Dictionary of the Bible, 1982 ed., tells us
“Wizard, a pretender to supernatural knowledge and power .... such a one was forbidden on pain of death to practice his deceptions ... Lev. 20:26, 27.” - p. 654.
We also know that some of the Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy because he admitted to being the Messiah (Christ) - see Matt 26:59-68 and footnotes for Matt 26:65 and Luke 22:71 in The NIV Study Bible, Zondervan Publ., 1985.
“But powerful forces in the Jewish congregation, jealous of his popularity, incensed by his denunciation of some of them, and bitterly critical of his disregard for formalism, his willingness to violate some of the minor laws of the Jews, and his heretical claim that he was the Son of God, repudiated him, conspired to kill him, saw him crucified, and after his death, persecuted his followers.” - The Portable World Bible, Viking Press, p. 230.
It was even forbidden for others to say that Jesus was the Messiah - John 9:22. And, in fact, that was obviously why Stephen was stoned to death.
At Acts 7:55-58, Stephen looked up into heaven “and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God, and he said, ‘Behold, I see the heavens opened and the Son of man [synonymous with the Messiah, not God] standing at the right hand of God.’ But they [the Jews] ... cast him out of the city, and stoned him.” - RSV.
Stephen was stoned, not because he claimed to be God, nor because he claimed Jesus was God (quite the contrary, in fact, as his quoted statement clearly shows: Jesus “standing at the right hand of God”) but because he was proclaiming Jesus to be the Messiah (Christ)! See The NIV Study Bible footnotes for Acts 7:56 and Mk 8:31.
The New American Bible, St. Joseph edition, tells us in a footnote for Acts 7:55 -
“Stephen affirms to the Sanhedrin that the prophecy Jesus made before them has been fulfilled (Mk 14:62).”
And Mk 14:61-64 shows Jesus declaring he is the Christ and that the Jews will see him (the son of man) at the right hand of God. This “blasphemy” of claiming to be the Messiah (whom the Jews never considered to be God) caused the Jews to condemn Jesus to death - see footnotes for Mk 14:61, 63 in The NIV Study Bible.
The trinitarian The Interpreter’s Dictionary of the Bible also tells us about the Messiah expected by the Jews at this time:
“The figure of the ‘Son of Man’ ... was, moreover, in accord with ... that of a pre-existent, heavenly angelic being who, at the end time, will appear at the side of God as judge of the world.” - p. 364, Vol. 3, Abingdon Press, 1962.
Therefore, when Jesus claimed, at John 8:58, to have lived long before his first century human existence, the Jews could have perceived him as a false prophet, or a self-proclaimed “wizard,” or, more likely, as one claiming to be the Christ or Messiah (the Son of Man) and tried to stone him because of that.
Finally, if Jesus' saying ego eimi were truly equivalent to claiming to be God, why was he not killed at John 8:28? (compare John 8:24.)
:28 "So Jesus said [to the Jews], 'When you have lifted up the son of man, then you will realize that I am'" (literally ego eimi). So did the Jews try to kill Jesus for saying this? No. In fact, :30 "As he was saying these things, many believed in him." Like all Jews at that time, these were expecting the Messiah. They never expected God to visit them in person!
I use www.biblegateway.com , which has no NWT.
tigger 2
Member
Capitalization ("I AM")
Even many trinitarian Bible translations deny any connection between God’s statement at Exodus 3:14 and Jesus’ reply to the Jews at John 8:58. They do this through the modern English usage of capitalizing personal names and exclusive titles. For example, “Word” at Jn 1:14; “Lamb” at Jn 1:36 and Rev 5:8; and “Son” at Jn 8:36.
Most of the trinitarian Bible translations that I have checked (24) have capitalized the words in question at Ex. 3:14 (“I AM;” or “I Will Be;” or “I Will Become;” etc.) to show their interpretation that this is a title or name of God. However, most of those same translations do not capitalize the words in question at John 8:58 (“I am;” “I was;” or “I have existed;” etc.): KJV; Douay Version; RSV; NRSV; ASV; NIV; NEB; REB; MLB; LB; NLV; The New Testament in the Language of the People (CBW); Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible; Rotherham; Beck; and Byington.
Therefore, the vast majority of trinitarian-translated Bibles obviously show Ex. 3:14 as giving a title or name for God (as properly indicated by the use of capitalization in English), but they do not show the same understanding for John 8:58 (nor Isaiah’s uses of “I am” by God)! All those trinitarian scholars above, therefore, are saying (by not capitalizing “am”) at Jn 8:58 that Jesus did not claim the same name or exclusive title that God used at Ex. 3:14.
Even though Bible text compilers add the punctuation and capitalization that they personally prefer, the basic Greek texts as compiled by trinitarians Westcott and Hort, and the trinitarian United Bible Societies, the Nestle text, and even the Received Text by the Trinitarian Bible Society (1976) do not capitalize ego eimi at John 8:58 ! (As compared to the capitalized “Alpha and Omega” title at Rev. 1:8, for example.)
Cross-References in Trinitarian Reference Bibles
Some trinitarian editors and publishers of trinitarian Bibles have added cross-references to the original translations. That is, they have superscripts and notes which refer one scripture to one or more other scriptures. The reference may indicate an actual quote from the OT found in the NT. Or it can indicate a similar meaning, event, or even just similar wording found in other scriptures. For example, in the New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, Foundation Press, 1975, the trinitarian NT editors chose John 1:1; 17:5, 24 as all the references for John 8:58. Not one reference to Ex. 3:14 or Isaiah or any other OT scripture where God says “I am”! Obviously these trinitarian scholars did not accept the extremely poor “I AM” evidence! (The trinitarian OT editors, however, did choose this approach at Ex. 3:14.) And the very trinitarian Revised Standard Version, American Bible Society, 1971 ed. also has only Jn 1:1; 17:5, 24 as references for John 8:58! (In this case the trinitarian OT editors also did not refer Ex. 3:14 or verses in Isaiah, etc. to Jn 8:58!) These trinitarian scholars, therefore, apparently did not accept the “I AM” argument as valid!
Other Translations
Some of those trinitarian translators go even further than merely not capitalizing at John 8:58 and further clarify the probable meaning in English and thereby refute the deceptive “I AM” interpretation of a few trinitarians.
These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:
(1)“I HAVE BEEN” - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB
(2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes
(3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis
(4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN” - The Unvarnished New Testament
(5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt
(6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck
(7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed
(8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams
(9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible
(10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible
(11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible
(12)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise
Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).
(13) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson
(14) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament
(15) "I already was" - Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
(16) "I existed" - New Living Translation (NLT)
(17) "I WAS" - Holy Bible - From the Ancient eastern Text (Lamsa)
It’s interesting to see that even the paraphrase Bible, the Living Bible (also published as The Word and The Book), which often takes great liberties with the literal text in order to better bring out trinitarian interpretations, denies an “‘I AM’ = God” interpretation for John 8:58. It brings out, instead, the obvious intended meaning of John 8:58 as: “the absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!” not “I was God before Abraham....”
Even many trinitarian Bible translations deny any connection between God’s statement at Exodus 3:14 and Jesus’ reply to the Jews at John 8:58. They do this through the modern English usage of capitalizing personal names and exclusive titles. For example, “Word” at Jn 1:14; “Lamb” at Jn 1:36 and Rev 5:8; and “Son” at Jn 8:36.
Most of the trinitarian Bible translations that I have checked (24) have capitalized the words in question at Ex. 3:14 (“I AM;” or “I Will Be;” or “I Will Become;” etc.) to show their interpretation that this is a title or name of God. However, most of those same translations do not capitalize the words in question at John 8:58 (“I am;” “I was;” or “I have existed;” etc.): KJV; Douay Version; RSV; NRSV; ASV; NIV; NEB; REB; MLB; LB; NLV; The New Testament in the Language of the People (CBW); Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible; Rotherham; Beck; and Byington.
Therefore, the vast majority of trinitarian-translated Bibles obviously show Ex. 3:14 as giving a title or name for God (as properly indicated by the use of capitalization in English), but they do not show the same understanding for John 8:58 (nor Isaiah’s uses of “I am” by God)! All those trinitarian scholars above, therefore, are saying (by not capitalizing “am”) at Jn 8:58 that Jesus did not claim the same name or exclusive title that God used at Ex. 3:14.
Even though Bible text compilers add the punctuation and capitalization that they personally prefer, the basic Greek texts as compiled by trinitarians Westcott and Hort, and the trinitarian United Bible Societies, the Nestle text, and even the Received Text by the Trinitarian Bible Society (1976) do not capitalize ego eimi at John 8:58 ! (As compared to the capitalized “Alpha and Omega” title at Rev. 1:8, for example.)
Cross-References in Trinitarian Reference Bibles
Some trinitarian editors and publishers of trinitarian Bibles have added cross-references to the original translations. That is, they have superscripts and notes which refer one scripture to one or more other scriptures. The reference may indicate an actual quote from the OT found in the NT. Or it can indicate a similar meaning, event, or even just similar wording found in other scriptures. For example, in the New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, Foundation Press, 1975, the trinitarian NT editors chose John 1:1; 17:5, 24 as all the references for John 8:58. Not one reference to Ex. 3:14 or Isaiah or any other OT scripture where God says “I am”! Obviously these trinitarian scholars did not accept the extremely poor “I AM” evidence! (The trinitarian OT editors, however, did choose this approach at Ex. 3:14.) And the very trinitarian Revised Standard Version, American Bible Society, 1971 ed. also has only Jn 1:1; 17:5, 24 as references for John 8:58! (In this case the trinitarian OT editors also did not refer Ex. 3:14 or verses in Isaiah, etc. to Jn 8:58!) These trinitarian scholars, therefore, apparently did not accept the “I AM” argument as valid!
Other Translations
Some of those trinitarian translators go even further than merely not capitalizing at John 8:58 and further clarify the probable meaning in English and thereby refute the deceptive “I AM” interpretation of a few trinitarians.
These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:
(1)“I HAVE BEEN” - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB
(2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes
(3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis
(4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN” - The Unvarnished New Testament
(5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt
(6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck
(7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed
(8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams
(9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible
(10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible
(11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible
(12)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise
Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).
(13) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson
(14) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament
(15) "I already was" - Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
(16) "I existed" - New Living Translation (NLT)
(17) "I WAS" - Holy Bible - From the Ancient eastern Text (Lamsa)
It’s interesting to see that even the paraphrase Bible, the Living Bible (also published as The Word and The Book), which often takes great liberties with the literal text in order to better bring out trinitarian interpretations, denies an “‘I AM’ = God” interpretation for John 8:58. It brings out, instead, the obvious intended meaning of John 8:58 as: “the absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!” not “I was God before Abraham....”
Actually we see the context is clear.
Jesus said these words...
Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him;
Because Jesus said these words, not some other claim, but these words written in the Bible that recorded the actual account and the actual reaction from the Jews.
You can refer to commentary or even other verses all you like, it won’t change what Jesus said and the reaction to His words from the Jews who heard Him say it.
JLB
Sure is clear the Jews immediately pick up stones to stone Him when He made this statement...
Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”
Then they took up stones to throw at Him;
JLB
So you believe almighty God is an Angel?
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look,
God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.” Exodus 3:1-4
The Bible plainly says the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of the bush.
The scripture goes on to say... God called to him from the midst of the bush
Other places in the Old Testament that refer to the Angel of the Lord as God.
The encounter with Hagar —
And the Angel of the LORD said to her:
“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the LORD has heard your affliction.
He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
Then she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13
again
The encounter with Samson’s parents —
And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD.” (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)
Then Manoah said to the Angel of the LORD, “What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?”
And the Angel of the LORD said to him, “Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?” (see Isaiah 9:6)
So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the LORD. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on— it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar—the Angel of the LORD ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. When the Angel of the LORD appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the LORD.
And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!” Judges 13:16-22
again
In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the LORD before them. Zechariah 12:8
JLB
Is Jesus God?
Like Trinity debates He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.
The qualifier in Jesus's reply is the word "before" and it was a reply to His accusers who stated,
You are not yet fifty years old," they said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"
The context is not the same as the Fathers I AM.
The firstborn was with the Father before all other things and those other things were made through Him and FOR HIM which speaks of another. For just as in the Son of Man the Father was living in Jesus creating. They are one in that manner.
Gifted and from the will of another at a point in history before the world began. "The fullness was pleased to dwell Him"
The fullness of the deity that dwells or lives in Jesus is the Father His God. They are one.
The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. If Jesus is not the Fathers Son whose son is He?
The Jesus in heaven holds to His testimony.
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
I hold to this
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.
And that Christ the Lord is all that the Father is and has a place on His Fathers throne. (given a name above all others except the one who gave Him that authority) It is the Father who glorifies His Firstborn.
And they are one.
Do you recognize the scriptures from the Old Testament that show us Jesus Christ the Son before He became flesh?
Exodus 3:1-15 is one of them.
Every place in the Old Testament where the Lord appeared to people is Jesus, our Lord; the Lord God, YHWH.
That is the supreme revelation of the New Covenant;
Jesus Christ is Lord.
Here are some examples:
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. And I will make My covenant between Me and you, and will multiply you exceedingly.”
Genesis 17:1-2
Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.
Exodus 3:1-6
JLB
Consecrated Life
Member
Even His fiercest enemies. who were themselves steeped in the knowledge of the scriptures, clearly understood the spiritual power that only God Himself has authority of, and that He claimed for Himself .
" And the scribes and the Phaisees began to reason , saying, who is this which speaketh blasphemies
. WHO can forgive sins , but GOD alone ?
( Luke 5:21 )
Who can forgive sins but God alone ?
" And the scribes and the Phaisees began to reason , saying, who is this which speaketh blasphemies
. WHO can forgive sins , but GOD alone ?
( Luke 5:21 )
Who can forgive sins but God alone ?
I have no way of knowing if the angel at the burning bush was Jesus. Since Jesus was before the world began and all the fullness dwells in Him its not really relevant to me. Jesus stated the Father was His God and our God. I have shown how Jesus is God without another God being formed. "The fullness was pleased to dwell in Him"
I know the Father spoke through the prophets in the past as Hebrews states so. The same God who spoke through the Son. And Jesus states the Father in Him was doing His work.
I know of some cases where Jesus spoke
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
And we have the Father. As Jesus stated the "Fathers promise" and the gift His Father spoke of
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
They are one.
The trinity doesn't state the Father is the only true God and the God of Jesus. The head of the body of Christ does. I follow Him. I believe Him. I know Him. I believe Jesus is all that the Father is. I believe Jesus has always been the Son. One God the Father and one Lord Jesus Christ. I don't believe Jesus is a angel rather the name He inherited is Mighty God which is superior to the angels of God.
And I agree in part.
Begotten of the Father before all worlds but not made.
So, you've banned me from most posts, and leave me this one, were all post are scriptures according to your "authorized" version, by the Church of England, rest upon Jesus speaking e-bonics, and a reference to charges of the Pharisees. How churchy.
I suggest reading the Bible all the way thru (even you plastic one), and letting it speak for itself.
I tire of your confirmation bias.
I suggest reading the Bible all the way thru (even you plastic one), and letting it speak for itself.
I tire of your confirmation bias.
Last edited by a moderator: