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An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

theMadJW said:
Thanks for asking!

Heb 1:1- God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2- has in these last days spoken to us by His son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3- who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4- having become so much better than the angels, as he has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

He was separate from God as His son- and EVERY JEW understood what a son is; contrary to Churchianity!
Click to expand...
This only says that God has a son.
We've been there and done that .
One more time , When & How , short of maternal birthing process, did this Son come into existence was my question ?
Come to my point ,please ?
 
Butch5 said:
Hi wondering

If that's what people must believe to be saved, then no one was saved until around 450 AD. That's the first time we see the idea of one God in three persons in church history. Read the Athanasian Creed and then read the Nicene Creed. They are very different in what they say about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that the Nicene Creed came first.
Click to expand...
Yes,,,I know this. I've studied the ECFs a little.
However, the idea did not happen overnight.

This is from Polycarp ( 69-155AD) A student of John the Apostle
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

From The Didache (the teachings) about 90AD
...mentions the triune formula (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in regards to what should be spoken over a person when they are baptized.

source: https://edenstree.weebly.com/the-story-of-christs-bride/patristic-period-the-apostolic-fathers
there is much more in the link

The Nicene Creed was at 325AD Council of Nicea
Another creed was developed in 381 and also 431...but it was decided that the one at 325 was correct.
 
theMadJW said:
Col 1: 13- He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the son of His love, 14- in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins.15- He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all [every] creation.
Click to expand...

The reference to His Blood is clear reference to His flesh & being physically born into the world that he created .

Your weak grasp of scriptural meaning is becoming more evident.
 
Consecrated Life said:
This only says that God has a son.
We've been there and done that .
One more time , When & How , short of maternal birthing process, did this Son come into existence was my question ?
Come to my point ,please ?
Click to expand...
How should I know?
He was a son, firstborn, the beginning of God's creation!
He doesn't tells us HOW he received life, and all we're told about the WHEN is it was before the universe began!
 
tigger 2 said:
Capitalization ("I AM")

Even many trinitarian Bible translations deny any connection between God’s statement at Exodus 3:14 and Jesus’ reply to the Jews at John 8:58. They do this through the modern English usage of capitalizing personal names and exclusive titles. For example, “Word” at Jn 1:14; “Lamb” at Jn 1:36 and Rev 5:8; and “Son” at Jn 8:36.

Most of the trinitarian Bible translations that I have checked (24) have capitalized the words in question at Ex. 3:14 (“I AM;” or “I Will Be;” or “I Will Become;” etc.) to show their interpretation that this is a title or name of God. However, most of those same translations do not capitalize the words in question at John 8:58 (“I am;” “I was;” or “I have existed;” etc.): KJV; Douay Version; RSV; NRSV; ASV; NIV; NEB; REB; MLB; LB; NLV; The New Testament in the Language of the People (CBW); Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible; Rotherham; Beck; and Byington.

Therefore, the vast majority of trinitarian-translated Bibles obviously show Ex. 3:14 as giving a title or name for God (as properly indicated by the use of capitalization in English), but they do not show the same understanding for John 8:58 (nor Isaiah’s uses of “I am” by God)! All those trinitarian scholars above, therefore, are saying (by not capitalizing “am”) at Jn 8:58 that Jesus did not claim the same name or exclusive title that God used at Ex. 3:14.

Even though Bible text compilers add the punctuation and capitalization that they personally prefer, the basic Greek texts as compiled by trinitarians Westcott and Hort, and the trinitarian United Bible Societies, the Nestle text, and even the Received Text by the Trinitarian Bible Society (1976) do not capitalize ego eimi at John 8:58 ! (As compared to the capitalized “Alpha and Omega” title at Rev. 1:8, for example.)

Cross-References in Trinitarian Reference Bibles

Some trinitarian editors and publishers of trinitarian Bibles have added cross-references to the original translations. That is, they have superscripts and notes which refer one scripture to one or more other scriptures. The reference may indicate an actual quote from the OT found in the NT. Or it can indicate a similar meaning, event, or even just similar wording found in other scriptures. For example, in the New American Standard Bible (NASB), Reference Edition, Foundation Press, 1975, the trinitarian NT editors chose John 1:1; 17:5, 24 as all the references for John 8:58. Not one reference to Ex. 3:14 or Isaiah or any other OT scripture where God says “I am”! Obviously these trinitarian scholars did not accept the extremely poor “I AM” evidence! (The trinitarian OT editors, however, did choose this approach at Ex. 3:14.) And the very trinitarian Revised Standard Version, American Bible Society, 1971 ed. also has only Jn 1:1; 17:5, 24 as references for John 8:58! (In this case the trinitarian OT editors also did not refer Ex. 3:14 or verses in Isaiah, etc. to Jn 8:58!) These trinitarian scholars, therefore, apparently did not accept the “I AM” argument as valid!

Other Translations

Some of those trinitarian translators go even further than merely not capitalizing at John 8:58 and further clarify the probable meaning in English and thereby refute the deceptive “I AM” interpretation of a few trinitarians.

These translations (most by trinitarians) render ego eimi at John 8:58 as:

(1)“I HAVE BEEN” - alternate reading in 1960 thru 1973 reference editions of NASB
(2) “I HAVE BEEN” - The New Testament, G. R. Noyes
(3) “I HAVE BEEN” - “The Four Gospels” According to the Sinaitic Palimpsest, A. S. Lewis
(4) “I HAVE ALREADY BEEN” - The Unvarnished New Testament
(5) “I HAVE EXISTED” - The Bible, A New Translation, Dr. James Moffatt
(6) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of Today, 1964 ed., Beck
(7) “I EXISTED” - An American Translation, Goodspeed
(8) “I EXISTED” - The New Testament in the Language of the People, Williams
(9) “I EXISTED” - New Simplified Bible
(10) “I WAS IN EXISTENCE” - Living Bible
(11) “I WAS ALIVE” - The Simple English Bible
(12)“I WAS” - Young’s Literal Translation of the Holy Bible, 1st ed. (Also see Young’s Concise
Critical Commentary, p. 61 of “The New Covenant.”).
(13) “I WAS” - H. T. Anderson
(14) “I WAS” - Twentieth Century New Testament
(15) "I already was" - Worldwide English (New Testament) (WE)
(16) "I existed" - New Living Translation (NLT)
(17) "I WAS" - Holy Bible - From the Ancient eastern Text (Lamsa)

It’s interesting to see that even the paraphrase Bible, the Living Bible (also published as The Word and The Book), which often takes great liberties with the literal text in order to better bring out trinitarian interpretations, denies an “‘I AM’ = God” interpretation for John 8:58. It brings out, instead, the obvious intended meaning of John 8:58 as: “the absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!” not “I was God before Abraham....”
Click to expand...
Then why would the guards fall down in John 18:6?
 
theMadJW said:
Since your referred to a "mother", I looked at you as just another wacko.
Aren't you familiar with John 3:16- which says he was a son before even being SENT?

Are you implying that Jesus had a MOTHER???
Click to expand...
You should try to learn what the word BEGOTTEN means.
The 2nd person of the Trinity ALWAYS existed.

The 2nd person of the Trinity, The Son, became human flesh, known as incarnation, so as to be the final and visible attempt of God to reveal Himself to mankind.

Jesus' mother was Mary.
His Father was the Holy Spirit.
 
theMadJW said:
How should I know?
He was a son, firstborn, the beginning of God's creation!
He doesn't tells us HOW he received life, and all we're told about the WHEN is it was before the universe began!
Click to expand...
Again, Jesus was not created.
IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE WORD
And the Word was God.....
He was "born first" BEFORE all creation because through Jesus ALL WAS CREATED.
John 1:1.......

Jesus, as the 2nd person of the Trinity always had life.
As Jesus, the human, His life began a little over 2,000 years ago.
 
theMadJW said:
How should I know?
He was a son, firstborn, the beginning of God's creation!
He doesn't tells us HOW he received life, and all we're told about the WHEN is it was before the universe began!
Click to expand...
Thank you.
The fact that you had to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit that the scripture puts no constraint of time on the Son's existence tells me you are only feigning not to know the possible implication of this.
There never was a time when He did not exist .
 
theMadJW said:
You mean that the Trio of Gods became a man and pretended to die?
Click to expand...
Your mind is closed and you have become brainwashed through the system of the JW.
Try to leave and see what happens....
Jesus said that through knowing HIM you would be free.
But YOU are NOT free, are you?
 
Consecrated Life said:
Thank you.
The fact that you had to be dragged kicking and screaming to admit that the scripture puts no constraint of time on the Son's existence tells me you are only feigning not to know the possible implication of this.
There never was a time when He did not exist .
Click to expand...
Oh the Pretenses!

1620072846795.png
 
wondering said:
Yes,,,I know this. I've studied the ECFs a little.
However, the idea did not happen overnight.

This is from Polycarp ( 69-155AD) A student of John the Apostle
Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.1

From The Didache (the teachings) about 90AD
...mentions the triune formula (in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) in regards to what should be spoken over a person when they are baptized.

source: https://edenstree.weebly.com/the-story-of-christs-bride/patristic-period-the-apostolic-fathers
there is much more in the link

The Nicene Creed was at 325AD Council of Nicea
Another creed was developed in 381 and also 431...but it was decided that the one at 325 was correct.
Click to expand...
Ok, look at the quote again. It says, may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. How can Jesus be His own Father? That's not possible. This is easily reconciled.
 
wondering said:
You should try to learn what the word BEGOTTEN means.
The 2nd person of the Trinity ALWAYS existed.

The 2nd person of the Trinity, The Son, became human flesh, known as incarnation, so as to be the final and visible attempt of God to reveal Himself to mankind.

Jesus' mother was Mary.
His Father was the Holy Spirit.
Click to expand...
I wash my hands of one who ignores the scripture staring him in the face!
 
Butch5 said:
Ok, look at the quote again. It says, may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. How can Jesus be His own Father? That's not possible. This is easily reconciled.
Click to expand...
But it also says what I underlined:
OUR LORD AND GOD, Jesus Christ.

These men were highly intelligent and knew what they were writing.

I have known others that are disciples of Jesus but do not believe in the Trinity or that He is God.
The problem I have with this is that He either was who He thought He was,,,or Jesus was insane.
I don't see another understanding of Him.

Do you believe that the resurrection occurred?
 
Butch5 said:
Hi wondering

If that's what people must believe to be saved, then no one was saved until around 450 AD. That's the first time we see the idea of one God in three persons in church history. Read the Athanasian Creed and then read the Nicene Creed. They are very different in what they say about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Keep in mind that the Nicene Creed came first.
Click to expand...
It is indicated that this happened much earlier as in John 20:28.
 
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