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An Open Debate on the Trinity with JLB

daninthelionsden said:
There is nothing to "understand" in Isaiah 9:6 except to know how to read.
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Actually, there is. There is a lot to understand. One just has to have an open mind. If one cannot reconcile the Scriptures they have something wrong. If you look at the Hebrew and Greek texts, you'll find that they don't say 'everlasting Father'
 
wondering said:
Jesus is not the same being as the Father.
So you believe Jesus is deity?
But you can't accept the Trinity.
Must log off now.
Tomorrow.
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I accept the Trinity doctrine as it was originally espoused by Tertullian. I don't accept the modern concept of one God in three persons that is espoused in the Athanasian Creed. Tertullian is the one who coined the term Trinity as it pertains to Christianity and he argued vehemently that the Father and the Son were two separate beings.
 
theMadJW said:
An angel is someone (spirit or human) carrying a message from God.
Of course, I understand your your viewpoint; One God carrying the message from Another God...
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Ok,

Thanks for your answer.


Can you also see that angels are sons of God?
 
theMadJW said:
He was separate from God as His son- and EVERY JEW understood what a son is; contrary to Churchianity!
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Verse 8-10 teaches us differently.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10



The Father acknowledges the Son as God, and tells us the Son created the heavens and the earth.


So based on your studies, who created the heavens and the earth?


God Almighty
An angel
A man




JLB
 
Butch5 said:
I accept the Trinity doctrine as it was originally espoused by Tertullian. I don't accept the modern concept of one God in three persons that is espoused in the Athanasian Creed. Tertullian is the one who coined the term Trinity as it pertains to Christianity and he argued vehemently that the Father and the Son were two separate beings.
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Tertullian, if I remember, had some ideas that were a bit different than "orthodox" Christianity.
Ditto for Origen.

Could you please state what Tertullian's idea was?
'night.
 
Butch5 said:
It's not fear. It's respect and following the rules.
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I would be interested in hearing your views on the Godhead, and who you believe Jesus Christ is?


I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son, and therefore I believe He is God; the Son of God.


If kind begets after it’s own kind, then it just stands to reason that God would beget God, just as horse begets horse, and human begets human...


What are your thoughts?




JLB
 
JLB said:
Ok,

Thanks for your answer.


Can you also see that angels are sons of God?
Click to expand...

JLB said:
Verse 8-10 teaches us differently.

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.” And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

The Father acknowledges the Son as God, and tells us the Son created the heavens and the earth.
So based on your studies, who created the heavens and the earth?
God Almighty
An angel
A man
JLB
Click to expand...
Rev. 3:21- "To the one that conquers I will grant to sit down with me on my throne, even as I have conquered and sat down with my Father on His throne."

Heb 1:8 is one of the abused by the Trinitarian Viewpoint (TV):
They reject the fact that the ONLY true God GAVE (not returned) all authroity to His son (not 'God-the-Son'), who is now made King.
It was a quote of Ps 45:6.
It can be translated as "Your throne, O God" from the OT, or "God is your throne"
(God is the foundation of your rule), which agrees with all scripture.

Translations of Heb. 1:8 by some Pro-Trinity Translations_

"God is your throne" - AT (Dr. Goodspeed)
"God is thy throne" - Mo (Dr. James Moffatt)
"God is your throne" - Byington
"God is your throne" - Dr. Barclay
"God is thy throne" - Dr. Westcott
"God is thy throne" - A. T. Robertson (Alternate translation)
"God is thy throne" - Dr. Young (Alt.)
"God is thy throne" - RSV (Alt.)
"God is your throne" - NRSV (Alt.)
"God is thy throne" - NEB (Alt.)
"Thy throne is God" - ASV (Alt.)

Translations of Ps. 45:6 by some Pro-Trinity Translations~

"Your Divine throne" - RSV
"Your throne is like God's throne" - NEB
"God is your throne" - Byington
"The kingdom that God has given you" - GNB
"God has enthroned you" - REB
"Your throne is from God" - NJB
"Your throne is a throne of God" - NRSV (Alt.)
"Thy throne is the throne of God" - ASV (Alt. )

Psalm 45:6- Your divine throne endures for ever and ever.
Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity.

Footnotes: Or Your throne is a throne of God, or Thy throne, O God

So- it depends on whether you place church dogma over the Bible.
 
Heb 1:1- God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2- has in these last days spoken to us by His son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3- who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
 
theMadJW said:
Heb 1:8 is one of the abused by the Trinitarian Viewpoint (TV):
They reject the fact that the ONLY true God GAVE (not returned) all authroity to His son (not 'God-the-Son'), who is now made King.
It was a quote of Ps 45:6.
It can be translated as "Your throne, O God" from the OT, or "God is your throne"
(God is the foundation of your rule), which agrees with all scripture
Click to expand...

Thanks for your answer.

Good use of scripture.

Look at verse 10.

The Father says to the Son...

And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:10


Do you know what Old Testament verse that uses that verbiage?


Zechariah 12:1


The burden of the word of the LORD against Israel. Thus says the LORD, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:
Zechariah 12:1



Who is speaking here through the mouth of the prophet Zechariah?




JLB
 
JLB said:
I would be interested in hearing your views on the Godhead, and who you believe Jesus Christ is?


I believe Jesus is the only begotten Son, and therefore I believe He is God; the Son of God.


If kind begets after it’s own kind, then it just stands to reason that God would beget God, just as horse begets horse, and human begets human...


What are your thoughts?




JLB
Click to expand...
I agree if we're saying Deity begets Deity. I believe how we define God is the real question. To me it's a title, similar to President or King. The king is royalty. He begets royalty.
 
theMadJW said:
So- it depends on whether you place church dogma over the Bible.
Click to expand...

I go with scripture.

I really don’t know Church dogma.


But to the Son He says:
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
And:
“You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10




JLB
 
Butch5 said:
I agree if we're saying Deity begets Deity. I believe how we define God is the real question. To me it's a title, similar to President or King. The king is royalty. He begets royalty.
Click to expand...

I define God (Elohim) as Creator.


In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.
Genesis 1:1


Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”
Genesis 1:26



JLB
 
Please one question at a time!
JLB said:
Look at verse 10.
The Father says to the Son...
And: “You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:10

Do you know what Old Testament verse that uses that verbiage?
JLB
Click to expand...
Jehovah has made him LORD.
Acts 2:36- “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

Just as ancient kings would make their sons Lord.
I fail to see you point, unless One God is calling another God.
Please explain.
 
JLB said:
I really don’t know Church dogma.
Click to expand...
Then why do you get stuck on the Trinity - or Whatever!
Don't you want to compare notes- if it is scriptural?
I not encouraging anyone to go to a Kingdom Hall- just READ the Bible, free of religious tradition!
 
theMadJW said:
Oh the Pretenses!

View attachment 11506
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Still pretending I see
Pretending that you did not see the last words of the verse, " from everlasting " ?

Unchecked Copy Box
Small 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Exactly how long is " everlasting " do you think ?
Or would you prefer to continue pretending you never saw the word ?
 
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