Animal Rights

[Pard]

Now, I couldn't understand a word you just wrote. I get the vibe you got a problem with what I quoted, and if you do you should take it up with the Writer. He's only a prayer away.

 

[Chris]

Now, I couldn't understand a word you just wrote. I get the vibe you got a problem with what I quoted, and if you do you should take it up with the Writer. He's only a prayer away.

No my friend I was not picking on you. I have heard so many brothers ans sisters dismissive of the plight of animals with an air of superiority because of that verse. We all share this planet and we are all connected. we are to take care but somewhere in the course of greed that got forgotten about. I thought man was to care for not abuse...Of course God values all he created not just us. He loves all equally. if god made us differently in a ruling role I was contrasting those dictators and how they treat people with our rule of Gods creation. that's what I meant before.


If we open peoples eyes they might see Jesus by what we tell them and the love we show them, it is only by telling people we share.

In the same way I was doing that today, that's why i put those pictures in, if I show you guys maybe together we can help it stop. If don't speak up and show you it may not. I was trying to help correct this, I want to be part of the solution. It will take many voices to end this.

 

[Riverwolf]

$10/LB, I just threw that number out there for some it can be even higher, some less. I did not hunt the last few years. My best friend was talking - gasoline for his truck to eastern Oregon and back, and to run his generator. Food for four adults for a week. Tags and licenses. And so on. Closer to home as in a day hunt it is less for sure but you must add everything up to really know the price per pound. If you are hunting your back yard then of course it is less. I never meant it was jumping up and down yelling yippee type of fun. But it is a rewarding type of enjoyment = fun.

 

[jasoncran]

Pard, there's no shame in having fun while hunting. I mean, I can't see the fun in sitting in a freezing cold duck blind, but antelope hunting is one of the more enjoyable activities I've ever experienced. Hunting is fun. Deal with it tree huggers.

one this note, if none culls the herds how will the moose in alaska survive? the deer in other states and turkey here in florida. most hunters eat what they kill.

 

[Pard]

Since someone did mention "sport hunting", how do you view fishing? Is it just a sport? I don't normally keep my catches, I catch and release. Is that wrong and inhumane?

How about shock collars for dogs? Like the ones used in those invisible fences, is that inhumane? We got our new dog one of those fence things just the other week. So far no luck, he is just one tough poodle because we are up in the range used for overly aggressive dogs and he still doesn't care that he is getting fried.


oh and another good reason for not letting an animal you are hunting suffer: I once shot a deer and the wind put the shot in his stomach. So I had to track him and it took like four hours. In that four hours his body went into MASSIVE shock mode and let me tell you, that was the worst tasting deer meat I have ever eaten. I asked my cousin and he said that when deer and other animals get stressed out like that it ruins the meat because of some hormones and such that get released.

 

[Oats]

Where in the Bible does it say that animals don't have souls?

 

[God&DogGirl]

I would say that this is wrong:

It's just torture. And I also hate the meat processing industry, hence my honest efforts to only buy Kosher meat.

 

[handy]

Where in the Bible does it say that animals don't have souls?

Not only does the Bible not say that animals do not have souls, the Bible specifically says that they do!

The words translated as "living creature" means literally "living soul".

It is interesting that Biblical translators, when faced with the same words translates the passage as "living creatures" when referring to the beasts and the other passage as "living soul" when referring to man. The words are identical in both places though.


God&DogGirl, I would have to condemn the perpetrators of that scene as being sinners! Poor little things!

 

[Vic C.]

Not only does the Bible not say that animals do not have souls, the Bible specifically says that they do!

The words translated as "living creature" means literally "living soul".

It is interesting that Biblical translators, when faced with the same words translates the passage as "living creatures" when referring to the beasts and the other passage as "living soul" when referring to man. The words are identical in both places though....(

You are SO correct sister.

Pard, there is a problem in your thinking. So many people make this mistake and then use it to justify the cruel way they treat animals.

You quoted this verse:

28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.â€

In your post, you set in bold the words "subdue it". First off, it would be nice if you and all would kindly cite your Bible verse, as per our ToS.

This is how I read the verse, from the KJV:

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The proper interpretation of this verse does not hinge on the word subdue, but on the word dominion. A good study on Biblical dominion (NOT dominion theology) in relation to stewardship would help one's understanding. :yes

Yes, they were created lower than man, but that does not adversely affect the treatment and responsibility of the animals. Just as we are to care for those humans that are less fortunate than we, we should also adopt a similar philosophy towards animals, ESPECIALLY the ones we have domesticated.

They were NOT put here for our "amusement" (look up the origin of the word amuse). Yes, our pets can be amusing, but we have domesticated them for such uses as hunting/gathering, to watch over our children and families, to serve in law enforcement and the military and as companions for a large majority of us.

That warrants responsibility. Now why do you think God commanded HIS chosen ones to kill them in the most humane possible? Was HE just bored that day or is there something to learn from it?

How we care for or abuse our pets and wildlife is most definitely a reflection of one's heart condition. :yes

Pard, there's no shame in having fun while hunting. I mean, I can't see the fun in sitting in a freezing cold duck blind, but antelope hunting is one of the more enjoyable activities I've ever experienced. Hunting is fun. Deal with it tree huggers.

Um, caring for animals in a humane and Biblical way does not make one a "tree hugger". We should avoid putting labels on those in whom we disagree.

That my dear, is one of the best definitions of "stewardship" that I can think of. :nod

I agree! As I mentioned above, a good, honest study on dominion and stewardship can really affect one's beliefs on this subject.

 

[Pard]

Vic,

Uh, if you look I have referenced every Bible quote. (*hint: look under the quoted text *)

And I don't honestly see your point.

No that's not it, sorry, I do see your point, but I don't see the point of you speaking to me. We are literally saying the same thing, if I understand your properly. I just went one route to say it and you went a different route. They both landed on the same answer and the same morals are instilled in either route.

In reflection, I am thinking you didn't read all my posts for this thread, since my argument is spread out of the last three pages.

 

[Vic C.]

No Ian, I read the entire thread before responding to anyone. I see your point. Actually, what I saw was a couple of contradictions in one post, but I was concerned when you keyed in on the word subdue.

Subdue, in the Bible, doesn't necessarily mean what it would mean today. It has nothing to do with conquering by force. The word means little without the emphasis on dominion and stewardship. If more people took their role of stewardship seriously, the world would be a much better place. :yes

I apologized if I missed any of your version references. It's also ok if you don't agree with all I said. It's just that I spent a considerable amount of time studying dominion and stewardship over the last two + years.

I posted this a couple of years ago and it's right for this topic:

Dominion: the power of man, the ... - Google Books

It called, Dominion: the power of man, the suffering of animals, and the call to mercy - By Matthew Scully (BTW, Scully is a conservative, for those who may think he's some sort of bleeding heart liberal).

At that link, you can read several pages of previews from the book. I own the book and believe, it's a tough, but good read. Tough in the way that it will cause a sense of guilt in many who may read it. Good because he nails the problem at hand... and he even references the very Bible verses that have been quoted here.

 

[jasoncran]

chris,i understand your position but i have a lot of issues with peta. kill a baby and also save that poor animal. they put man below animals. wheres that in the bible?

and this too

PETA makes state police 'terrorist' list - National pet | Examiner.com

i could also post there philosophy on men and animals and that animals have equal rights.meaning that they see killing a baby ok and a puppy as bad. for the record i'm not for torture or killing animals for skin etc, but in the past certian cultures in order to survive had too. john the baptist wore camel skins, and elisha goats skin.both pleased GOD.

food for thought.

 

[RoadDebris]

And few animals help man hunt or gather or anything else constructive. Most pets poop all over the backyard, lay in the middle of the floor so you trip over them in the dark, and occasionally destroy something valuable. Yes, they're great buddies and if you're lucky, as I am, they have a big bark and big teeth to scare JW's off the porch, but to say that the purpose of animals is to work with man is really stretching it. Very, very few are used for that purpose.

And animals have souls? Give me a break.

 

[jasoncran]

And few animals help man hunt or gather or anything else constructive. Most pets poop all over the backyard, lay in the middle of the floor so you trip over them in the dark, and occasionally destroy something valuable. Yes, they're great buddies and if you're lucky, as I am, they have a big bark and big teeth to scare JW's off the porch, but to say that the purpose of animals is to work with man is really stretching it. Very, very few are used for that purpose.

And animals have souls? Give me a break.

not as we do but the words is in revalation is this
... and the third of the living souls in the ocean were killed. men live in the ocean?
revalation 16:3
And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

 

[WIP]

Oh, me too! I'd freak out and probably wind up committing a crime in the process. How people can be that heartless is just... I don't even know!!

Perhaps the word "rights" wasn't best but I do think animals should have rights. Not the same ones we do, of course. But the right not to be treated with no regard to their safety? The right not to be abused? Yes, animals have those and I don't think they have many more.

Mammals have the ability to love. It's scientifically proven. In fact, if you have two dogs and one dies, the living dog will grieve for his friend. He won't eat, won't want to do things he usually enjoys, and he will mope. They go through deep pain when they lose someone they love. Have you ever heard the sound a dog or cat or other mammal makes when she finds her beloved companion dead? I've heard it's absolutely heart wrenching and I'm thankful I haven't heard it but I know people who have said it haunted them. So animals are capable of love because I've seen firsthand an animal genuinely forgiving his owner for some of the pain she put him through (at the vet, accidentally stepping on his tail, etc). I knew of one dog whose owner beat her and she still came back to him and lovingly forgave him. It was three years of painful abuse before she had enough and ran away. Also, God has used animals in countless ways to save human lives. Cats have alerted their owners to a fire in their house and then successfully led them out of it. I even heard of one cat who led one person out of the burning house and went back for another one. A pit bull recently took 2 bullets for his owner. And one remarkable Golden Retriever actually helped someone come out of a coma and assisted her in recovery.

So I believe that hunting animals for fun is wrong. Not to mention, killing for sport? God created those animals for us... but does that mean we can derive pleasure from stuffing them and putting them on our wall to prove we can use a gun?

I am not a vegetarian but I buy Kosher food as often as possible because it's more humane. I also am careful to buy cosmetics and related products that are not tested on animals. I am 100% against animal testing because science has actually come up with ways to avoid it and cut the cost in half. Only time we should ever test a product on an animal is if it's one made to be used by an animal (i.e. testing dog shampoo on a dog).

God put us in charge of the animals. When you're in charge of a group of children, you're expected to be responsible. Well God expects us to be responsible in ruling over the animals. And that means that abusing them is sinful.

And I only scratched the surface of my beliefs here!

Not trying to argue with you but taking off from some of what you've said, did you know that plants have demonstrated reaction to stimuli that mimics what we might think of as pain? For example, I read once that trees exhibit some reactions when cut into by a chainsaw. There are plants that hunt meat for food. With this in mind, would it not also suggest that living a vegetarian lifestyle strictly for the sake of protecting other living beings from suffering may just be a feel good response some use to justify their position? Choosing to avoid eating meat for personal preference is one thing but claiming it is somehow more humane, well, maybe that's another.

If we are not to take pleasure in killing an animal for food should the same apply to killing a plant and then what about the pleasure we get from consuming the food? No one can deny that at the point of starvation getting something to eat, animal or plant matter, would be satisfyingly pleasurable to say the least.

I have no problem with someone getting enjoyment from the process of obtaining wild meat. Killing only for pleasure is wrong but enjoying the process is a different matter entirely. I'm sure we all enjoy driving our cars, heating our homes, etc. Does that mean we enjoy polluting the air we breathe?

It is far easier for me to accept the idea of hunting than it is to help an animal be born, nurse it, care for it, treat it when it is ill, protect it, feed it, water it, shelter it, love it, gain its respect, trust, love, and dedication and then lead it into a slaughterhouse along with thousands of other animals only to systematically pluck the life out of them one by one. If you've never seen the process, you have no idea what it's really like. It's impossible to describe.

And then what does it matter that the hide is preserved and stuffed so long as the meat is used? The animal no longer needs it. Animals are killed for more reasons than food too. There is a host of animal by-products we use every day and some of them we don't even realize. Leather, furs, chemicals, medicines, ivory, fuel, soap, calcium, fleece, and felt, to name a few.

And what about Adam and Eve? Didn't God kill to provide them with clothing? If my memory serves me correctly, there's no mention of the meat being used. Consider too all the animals that were sacrificed for God's pleasure. The meat was not always used either. In some cases animals were used for nothing more than the consummation of covenants. It seems that the animals God created have played a vital role in our own existence.

And then what about beasts of burden? Those creatures we subdue into doing our heavy work such as carrying heavy loads, plowing our fields, pulling heavy equipment, moving heavy loads, and transporting us? How is that even remotely humane? If our pets have feelings do we really know they enjoy their role in life or have they just been duped into believing it? Those that take on the responsibility of keeping a pet also must accept the responsibility of treating it with dignity, love, and respect. They don't know any better and so anything less is cruel and wrong.

True hunting is not even close to being in the same ballpark as animal cruelty and should not even be brought into the same conversation. Killing purely for pleasure is sick, demented, and disgusting and nothing close to hunting. When we choose to kill an animal we also choose the responsibility to use the animal.

Just my opinion.

 

[Chris]

I would say that this is wrong:

It's just torture. And I also hate the meat processing industry, hence my honest efforts to only buy Kosher meat.

I like you I wish you could have seen the picture mike had to delete I put in here.

 

[Chris]

Not trying to argue with you but taking off from some of what you've said, did you know that plants have demonstrated reaction to stimuli that mimics what we might think of as pain? For example, I read once that trees exhibit some reactions when cut into by a chainsaw. There are plants that hunt meat for food. With this in mind, would it not also suggest that living a vegetarian lifestyle strictly for the sake of protecting other living beings from suffering may just be a feel good response some use to justify their position? Choosing to avoid eating meat for personal preference is one thing but claiming it is somehow more humane, well, maybe that's another.

If we are not to take pleasure in killing an animal for food should the same apply to killing a plant and then what about the pleasure we get from consuming the food? No one can deny that at the point of starvation getting something to eat, animal or plant matter, would be satisfyingly pleasurable to say the least.

I have no problem with someone getting enjoyment from the process of obtaining wild meat. Killing only for pleasure is wrong but enjoying the process is a different matter entirely. I'm sure we all enjoy driving our cars, heating our homes, etc. Does that mean we enjoy polluting the air we breathe?

It is far easier for me to accept the idea of hunting than it is to help an animal be born, nurse it, care for it, treat it when it is ill, protect it, feed it, water it, shelter it, love it, gain its respect, trust, love, and dedication and then lead it into a slaughterhouse along with thousands of other animals only to systematically pluck the life out of them one by one. If you've never seen the process, you have no idea what it's really like. It's impossible to describe.

And then what does it matter that the hide is preserved and stuffed so long as the meat is used? The animal no longer needs it. Animals are killed for more reasons than food too. There is a host of animal by-products we use every day and some of them we don't even realize. Leather, furs, chemicals, medicines, ivory, fuel, soap, calcium, fleece, and felt, to name a few.

And what about Adam and Eve? Didn't God kill to provide them with clothing? If my memory serves me correctly, there's no mention of the meat being used. Consider too all the animals that were sacrificed for God's pleasure. The meat was not always used either. In some cases animals were used for nothing more than the consummation of covenants. It seems that the animals God created have played a vital role in our own existence.

And then what about beasts of burden? Those creatures we subdue into doing our heavy work such as carrying heavy loads, plowing our fields, pulling heavy equipment, moving heavy loads, and transporting us? How is that even remotely humane? If our pets have feelings do we really know they enjoy their role in life or have they just been duped into believing it? Those that take on the responsibility of keeping a pet also must accept the responsibility of treating it with dignity, love, and respect. They don't know any better and so anything less is cruel and wrong.

True hunting is not even close to being in the same ballpark as animal cruelty and should not even be brought into the same conversation. Killing purely for pleasure is sick, demented, and disgusting and nothing close to hunting. When we choose to kill an animal we also choose the responsibility to use the animal.

Just my opinion.

That was a very well worded post and reflects a lot of my opinions. the thing about plants is they don't suffer like animals do.

I am very opinionated on this because i am an Empath with animals.

Other things I would ad to your great post are:

Killing an animal and eating meat you yourself. If you can do this that is respectable. People that farm look after and kill for food only

Insisting everyone eat meat and being unable to kill an animal gut it and eat it yourself, is not worthy of any respect. Insisting everyone else eat the flesh of creatures and have someone else do the dirty work..no respect.

people who eat the abundant alternatives we now have to animal flesh are people I really have time for. Ones who abstain for humanitarian reasons.

 

[handy]

One thing about the experiments with plants that suggest they might feel pain: whereas animals do have souls (or perhaps more accurately are souls) plants are not. No where do the Scriptures suggest that plants have souls.

I'd have to agree with you Chris, that insisting that anyone eat meat is wrong. God created us to be vegetarian, so there can be no reason to insist that one not be vegetarian.

We do need to remember though that, although He didn't create them to be food, it was God who gave the animals as food.

As with all of God's gifts, man has trampled this gift and made a travesty of it. I'm a meat eater, but most (admittedly not all) the meat I eat is what we raise here or is hunted by someone in my family. I am horrified as well by the meat industry and what many animals suffer.

Do be aware though that there is a lot of propaganda on the PETA side of things. I know many cattle ranchers and many dairymen and have been to many dairies and on many ranches. Not all the meat or dairy products in grocery stores have been from animals that have suffered horrific abuse by any means. One can talk to the grocer, the more "local" the meat or dairies, the better chance that the animal led a perfectly happy life with plenty of fresh air, grazing and a quick death. Grocery stores that use local meats and dairies not only support smaller and more humane farms, but also result in less pollution in driving/transporting meats across long distances.

Poultry and eggs, now I do love chicken, and we eat it regularly and no, we don't raise them ourselves, but I think I'm going back to raising our own poultry again. I've yet to see any poultry operation that isn't cruel with the poor chickens living their lives crammed into a small cage, never going outdoors or seeing the sun.

 

[Pard]

Our eggs are just dandy. If you get to the store in time they are still warm. And if you don't want to wake up at 7am to get warm eggs you can go to the chicken farm (about 25 miles down the way) and get fresh eggs anytime of the day right from the farm. But be warned, I did that once and what I thought was going to be a five minute thing ended up being a two hour thing because the guy insisted on taking me on a tour of his entire farm. I politely refused to see the dairy section since I don't even touch milk. His chickens were all sorts of outdoors, kinda.

They were in this giant cage, and when I say giant I mean like ten feet high, maybe 100 feet by 100 feet across. Had a few of them with a single, communal house where they sleep (and presumably lay eggs).

So not all chicken eggs are gotten by whatever means they are gotten that isn't so good.

I don't think my grocer even sells meat that is raised outside of New England. Matter of fact they hardly sell veggies and fruit raised out of New England, which really stinks in the middle of winter when you want a nice carton of raspberries... But that's why God made Stop & Shop.

And yeah, plants may be able to feel pain, I sort of doubt it is pain in the sense that we feel it, heck animals don't even feel it in the way that we feel pain. That's something I think people ought to remember though. Pain for us and pain for animals is different. We put an emotional attachment on our pain and it amplifies it. Animals don't really have the emotions to attach to pain and so it's more like a warning system.

I guess the extreme example would be an Airedale. They register pain at such a basic level that it doesn't bother them at that much. They used Airedales during the World Wars as messenger dogs. Those dogs would get shot many times and then even have legs shot off and they'd still deliver their message because it's not a crippling pain for them. Birds are the same way also, especially pigeons (which is one of the reasons they were picked to carry messages as well). My grandmother had an Airedale that would sit by the fire and literally eat hot coals and the thing never cried or complained. It liked it!

 

[Riverwolf]

heck animals don't even feel it in the way that we feel pain. That's something I think people ought to remember though. Pain for us and pain for animals is different. We put an emotional attachment on our pain and it amplifies it. Animals don't really have the emotions to attach to pain and so it's more like a warning system.

I am not arguing this point. However, could you post some links to back this up? If this is true then it could change alot of peoples thinking.