Animals as food.....

[handy]

I saw this by Drew on the "Animal Rights" thread, and decided it was a topic all it's own and made this thread...

"And I accept the notion that is not sinful for us to kill animals to eat them - although I have some doubts about this."

I know that some Christians do indeed believe, in spite of Genesis 9, that it is sin to eat animals.

Yes, in Genesis 9, God did give the animals to be eaten...but, was that just a "temporary" thing...something to keep Noah and the others alive until they could plant crops and harvest them?

Since God created all as vegetarians...animals included...doesn't it stand to reason that, although it is permitted to eat them...it is better to follow God's original plan and be vegetarian?

Thoughts?

 

[handy]

My own thoughts...

Well, I'm a cattle rancher, so obviously I fully participate in the raising and killing of animals for food.

But, I do have to admit that eating animals must not have been God's perfect plan, for He created all living creatures to be vegetarian and only gave the animals as food after the Flood, in response to a world destroyed by sin.

Adding to this the very real abuse and horrific conditions some animals raised in large processing centers face, I do wonder about buy meat at the grocery store.

Our animals live very happy lives, free to graze, fed well in the winter, and mercifully killed when the time comes. But, not all do, so in this sense, I guess I'm getting more and more to the position that buying meat in the grocery store, unless I know it was raised locally and under humane conditions, isn't right, even though God permits animals to be killed for food.

It's a lot like my position on the death penalty...God permits it as well, but in our society today, I'm against it, unless it's beyond any shadow of a doubt that the accused did indeed kill, and I don't mean just convicted by a jury, but something like DNA evidence, proof positive.

So, I don't know, animals as food...my views are changing.

 

[jasoncran]

My own thoughts...

Well, I'm a cattle rancher, so obviously I fully participate in the raising and killing of animals for food.

But, I do have to admit that eating animals must not have been God's perfect plan, for He created all living creatures to be vegetarian and only gave the animals as food after the Flood, in response to a world destroyed by sin.

Adding to this the very real abuse and horrific conditions some animals raised in large processing centers face, I do wonder about buy meat at the grocery store.

Our animals live very happy lives, free to graze, fed well in the winter, and mercifully killed when the time comes. But, not all do, so in this sense, I guess I'm getting more and more to the position that buying meat in the grocery store, unless I know it was raised locally and under humane conditions, isn't right, even though God permits animals to be killed for food.

It's a lot like my position on the death penalty...God permits it as well, but in our society today, I'm against it, unless it's beyond any shadow of a doubt that the accused did indeed kill, and I don't mean just convicted by a jury, but something like DNA evidence, proof positive.

So, I don't know, animals as food...my views are changing.

ok,so what exactly is a cow's natural habitat? and a chickens? they arent really good predators but would be prey and what besides wolves eat them? so in some the livestock for its own sake since some predators arent in large amount dont eat livestock in mass.

i do know the coyote kills cows,chickens and sheep and goat.still there would have to be a balence and agian where would these things roam?especially a chicken?

 

[Pard]

Be vegetarian if you really want to put yourself through suck torturous antics, but God gave us animals to eat (Genesis 9) and to do otherwise is like denying the delicious gift that He gave us.

 

[Mike]

Dora, I'm not sure I'm understanding the point behind the point. God Created the world with His Design, and then set His Plan of Redemption in place when sin entered the world. Having all Foreknowledge, can't we assume this was His ultimate Plan all along?

So He changed the design of His Creation to allow for "some" meats for His people. With Christ, came the freedom to eat meat of all kinds. Which plan was His "Plan"?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I realize you're not saying it's sinful to eat meat. But I'm not sure I see the significance of an original Design when God Himself exacted the change.

 

[Drew]

Be vegetarian if you really want to put yourself through suck torturous antics, but God gave us animals to eat (Genesis 9) and to do otherwise is like denying the delicious gift that He gave us.

The problem with this is that you seem to think that creation is there for our pleasure.

Not so - God created his world and told Adam "Take care of My world for me". That does not mean "It exists for your pleasure".

Yes, we are permitted to eat meat, but as handy has suggested, this does not appear to be the "Edenic intent". And since the Biblical narrative leads to "Eden restored" in the future, there is a very real argument that abstaining from meat makes an important symbolic statement - that we anticipate and look forward to that day when Eden is restored.

 

[Drew]

Dora, I'm not sure I'm understanding the point behind the point. God Created the world with His Design, and then set His Plan of Redemption in place when sin entered the world. Having all Foreknowledge, can't we assume this was His ultimate Plan all along?

I don't believe God "planned" that sin would enter the world. He may have known that it would, but that's quite different.

So He changed the design of His Creation to allow for "some" meats for His people. With Christ, came the freedom to eat meat of all kinds. Which plan was His "Plan"?

Yes, with Christ came the freedom to eat meat of all kinds. But this, I suggest, symbolizes the end of the Jew-Gentile distinction.It could remain the case that God's ultimate plan is to end the practice of killing animals for food.

 

[Hitch]

I don't believe God "planned" that sin would enter the world. He may have known that it would, but that's quite different.


Yes, with Christ came the freedom to eat meat of all kinds. But this, I suggest, symbolizes the end of the Jew-Gentile distinction.It could remain the case that God's ultimate plan is to end the practice of killing animals for food.

Next it will be rights for microbes.

 

[handy]

I do want to make it clear that I don't think of this as a "sin" issue, but rather, what should Christians strive for.

Think about marriage...obviously, going by the Garden of Eden, marriage was one man, one woman for all time.

Yet, God permits divorce...through the Mosaic law and through Christ Himself...there are certain circumstances when divorce is permitted...but, I think most Christians would agree that divorce was never God's perfect plan, what not how He created marriage to be and that we should strive to not divorce. Yes?

So, in the Garden and all the way up to Noah, no one ate meat. When the animals were given as meat, it was in response to the devastation that sin brought about, not because God just decided that everybody would like a good steak for supper.

Just as striving to maintain one's marriage is a response to viewing our marriage in the light of what God intended, could not going vegetarian also be a response to viewing our bodies in the light of what God intended?


:p The ironic thing about this thread is that I'm writing as I'm getting ready to grill some hamburgers for supper tonight. I do want to be clear, I'm not viewing this as a "sin" issue, but rather as is being vegetarian something that Christians should strive for?

 

[Drew]

I do want to make it clear that I don't think of this as a "sin" issue, but rather, what should Christians strive for.

Same here.

 

[Pard]

I don't know...

We ought to strive for things that Jesus did and He never strived to remove meat from His diet. He had fish (duh...). He had lamb.

 

[RoadDebris]

It's better not to be a legalist, making up dietary laws that are self-serving.

 

[jasoncran]

pard isnt alone in hearing the vegans are unhealthy. i have heard that from a very physical fit nurse and personal trainer who probably has less then 4% body fat.

 

[tim-from-pa]

God's Word says that certain meats are Kosher, so it is lawful to eat them.

I realize the cow minds that idea, but so be it.

Meat has vital nutrients needed for mankind in great quantities such as protein, saturated fats, cholesterol (although in all fairness your body produces most of this healthy pre-vitamin), vitamin B12, Iron and so forth.

I would be sickly if I ate only grains, fruits and vegetables. Yes you need them, but the body also needs animal nutrients. This goes for byproducts as well such as eggs, cheese, yogurt (the plain variety not the processed garbage) and so forth.

 

[Pard]

I have a friend who had to switch from her vegan diet or else she'd have died.

It has been medically documented that the Inuit people of Alaska and Canada require whale meat in their diets in order to maintain their health. It is one of the reasons why they are still permitted to hunt whales every year.

 

[handy]

I would imagine that the Inuits need the meat because they don't grow many veggies in that climate.

I've heard that vegans are unhealthy. I wasn't thinking of vegans but vegetarians, eating eggs and drinking milk being OK, as long as the cows and chickens aren't mistreated in their living conditions.

I do believe that there is something to the theory that plants aren't as nutritious for us as they were prior to the Flood.

 

[jasoncran]

well if we could go back to more local farms and repeal nafta and people willing to pay farmers decent prices for the animals perhaps we could have more farms that are more humane.

 

[Drew]

It's better not to be a legalist, making up dietary laws that are self-serving.

First, it is misrepresentative to suggest that dietary laws are being "made up" as if there is no basis whatsoever for abstaining from meat. But there is at least this plausible argument: death of animal life was never an intended part of God's creation - this is why, in the garden, Adam and Eve are instructed to eat plants only. Then Adam and Eve fell and we are "allowed" to eat meat. Fine. But the Biblical narrative is going somewhere - to the defeat of death and the restoration of Eden. If this is so, then we, the church, should participate in that project, abstaining from meat.

Second, you should not presume that the "vegetarian" is self-serving. There are those who think animals exist for their own pleasure. Now that is self-serving.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm all about consuming meat now and then, but as Dora pointed out the animals aren't always treated well or even slaughtered properly. I think maybe the thing to do is cut down on meat consumption, which is something I'm struggling with right now. The way I see it, meat isn't exactly the most efficient food--it takes lots of grains and energy to produce meat. This is fine, as long as we're not so meat-centric that our meat consumption damages the environment and leads to terrible conditions for both animals and workers in the meat industry. Unfortunately, since the days of the "The Jungle," this has been the case.

So, maybe moderation is the answer? It seems that moderation would cut down on the environmental impact of meat production. We could also be more selective about where we get our meat. Also, the heath benefits from moderate consumption would probably be greater than consuming lots and lots of meat or consuming no meat at all.

 

[tim-from-pa]

First, it is misrepresentative to suggest that dietary laws are being "made up" as if there is no basis whatsoever for abstaining from meat. But there is at least this plausible argument: death of animal life was never an intended part of God's creation - this is why, in the garden, Adam and Eve are instructed to eat plants only. Then Adam and Eve fell and we are "allowed" to eat meat. Fine. But the Biblical narrative is going somewhere - to the defeat of death and the restoration of Eden. If this is so, then we, the church, should participate in that project, abstaining from meat.

Second, you should not presume that the "vegetarian" is self-serving. There are those who think animals exist for their own pleasure. Now that is self-serving.

Sounds nice, Drew except for one thing: that is totally Bovine.