Animals as food.....

[Drew]

I'm all about consuming meat now and then, but as Dora pointed out the animals aren't always treated well or even slaughtered properly. I think maybe the thing to do is cut down on meat consumption, which is something I'm struggling with right now. The way I see it, meat isn't exactly the most efficient food--it takes lots of grains and energy to produce meat. This is fine, as long as we're not so meat-centric that our meat consumption damages the environment and leads to terrible conditions for both animals and workers in the meat industry. Unfortunately, since the days of the "The Jungle," this has been the case.

So, maybe moderation is the answer? It seems that moderation would cut down on the environmental impact of meat production. We could also be more selective about where we get our meat. Also, the heath benefits from moderate consumption would probably be greater than consuming lots and lots of meat or consuming no meat at all.

I think you present a number of good ideas. I happen to think that another consideration is also at play - the notion that "Eden restored" - which is where I see the Bible narrative as heading - entails the end of animal death (there was no eating of animals in Eden). Consequently, I think a case can be made that if we abstain from meat, we participate in that project of "getting us back to the garden".

 

[tim-from-pa]

I'm all about consuming meat now and then, but as Dora pointed out the animals aren't always treated well or even slaughtered properly. I think maybe the thing to do is cut down on meat consumption, which is something I'm struggling with right now. The way I see it, meat isn't exactly the most efficient food--it takes lots of grains and energy to produce meat. This is fine, as long as we're not so meat-centric that our meat consumption damages the environment and leads to terrible conditions for both animals and workers in the meat industry. Unfortunately, since the days of the "The Jungle," this has been the case.

So, maybe moderation is the answer? It seems that moderation would cut down on the environmental impact of meat production. We could also be more selective about where we get our meat. Also, the heath benefits from moderate consumption would probably be greater than consuming lots and lots of meat or consuming no meat at all.

You are Christ empowered if you truly think like Christ. Christ ate meat. You are supposedly worried about the environment (which is this world's philosophy but that's another subject) I'll admit, at least you say "in moderation" but you still want to cut back. So, what are you going to replace meat with in your diet?

 

[Drew]

You are supposedly worried about the environment (which is this world's philosophy but that's another subject)

This statement is neither correct nor another subject.

We are called to be stewards of God's good creation, so being "pro-environment" is most certainly the vocation of the Christian. And it is relevent to the subject for precisely the reason "Christ Empowered" has stated - raising animals for food can damage the environment.

 

[Pard]

And letting animals be without culling their numbers is probably even worse for the environment.

Tim is most likely responding to the undertone in CE's post which leans (rather staunchly) towards a "global warming"-positive outlook. And that is why it's a topic for another thread.

 

[Drew]

And letting animals be without culling their numbers is probably even worse for the environment.

I suggest CE was talking about animals like cows and chickens - not wild animals, where culling might, at times, be necessary. And I suspect that he or she is right - raising such "food animals" probably does damage the environment. Witness the whole issue of deforestation to create land for cows to graze on.

 

[RoadDebris]

First, it is misrepresentative to suggest that dietary laws are being "made up" as if there is no basis whatsoever for abstaining from meat. But there is at least this plausible argument: death of animal life was never an intended part of God's creation - this is why, in the garden, Adam and Eve are instructed to eat plants only. Then Adam and Eve fell and we are "allowed" to eat meat. Fine. But the Biblical narrative is going somewhere - to the defeat of death and the restoration of Eden. If this is so, then we, the church, should participate in that project, abstaining from meat.

Second, you should not presume that the "vegetarian" is self-serving. There are those who think animals exist for their own pleasure. Now that is self-serving.

Drew, it's no assumption. Those here who are pushing others to follow dietary laws as part of Christianity are way out of line. Total legalism.

 

[tim-from-pa]

This statement is neither correct nor another subject.

We are called to be stewards of God's good creation, so being "pro-environment" is most certainly the vocation of the Christian. And it is relevent to the subject for precisely the reason "Christ Empowered" has stated - raising animals for food can damage the environment.

And again.... God allowed us to eat meat. Who are you, oh man, to say otherwise? So, I'll ask the same question to you as "Christ_empowered". What are you going to replace your diet with if you have no meats?

 

[Christ_empowered]

Personally, I'm replacing some meat in my diet with whey protein shakes. They're delicious, they keep me full, they have fewer calories and less fat than meat, and they apparently (according to internet sources--take with a grain of salt) help boost glutathione levels in the body. Awesome all around, and I still have a hamburger now and then.

Industrial farming, from what I understand, can wreak havoc in terms of ecosystem damage in the communities in which they operate. I'm not saying "let's go vegetarian," but I am saying that it might be time to go towards a more moderate intake of meat.

I understand that Jesus ate meat, but I doubt that the ancient Middle Eastern diet was quite as heavy on meat as our own diet in the US tends to be; I just can't imagine them having the resources to make that much meat available to the average person. Maybe I'm wrong.

I also think that Christians are called, perhaps more so than other people, to be good stewards of what God has given us. If cutting back on our meat intake results in a better environment for future generations (possibly even our own), then awesome. I don't really have a political agenda.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Drew, it's no assumption. Those here who are pushing others to follow dietary laws as part of Christianity are way out of line. Total legalism.

I won't make it a "salvation issue" but God wants our physical bodies healthy. If you want to stay healthy, then just reverse the advice of the medical establishment and all these other environmentalists 180º and you'll be fine.

Frankly, I get tired of asking to pray for "Christians" who are grievously ill because they believe the world's mantra about animal meats, dieting and medical advice. One of these days I'll stop praying because they refused to believe the bible and believed man's advice instead thus they deserve what they get.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Personally, I'm replacing some meat in my diet with whey protein shakes. They're delicious, they keep me full, they have fewer calories and less fat than meat, and they apparently (according to internet sources--take with a grain of salt) help boost glutathione levels in the body. Awesome all around, and I still have a hamburger now and then.

Industrial farming, from what I understand, can wreak havoc in terms of ecosystem damage in the communities in which they operate. I'm not saying "let's go vegetarian," but I am saying that it might be time to go towards a more moderate intake of meat.

I understand that Jesus ate meat, but I doubt that the ancient Middle Eastern diet was quite as heavy on meat as our own diet in the US tends to be; I just can't imagine them having the resources to make that much meat available to the average person. Maybe I'm wrong.

I also think that Christians are called, perhaps more so than other people, to be good stewards of what God has given us. If cutting back on our meat intake results in a better environment for future generations (possibly even our own), then awesome. I don't really have a political agenda.

Well, I don't sense that you are being unreasonable about this so I won't pick on you any longer. Just understand, my friend, that a lot of medical and environmental advice out there is of this world and things they say are "bad" for you is not the case. But there's no problem if you want to eat in moderation. That is Christ-like.

 

[RoadDebris]

I won't make it a "salvation issue" but God wants our physical bodies healthy. If you want to stay healthy, then just reverse the advice of the medical establishment and all these other environmentalists 180º and you'll be fine.

Frankly, I get tired of asking to pray for "Christians" who are grievously ill because they believe the world's mantra about animal meats, dieting and medical advice. One of these days I'll stop praying because they refused to believe the bible and believed man's advice instead thus they deserve what they get.

If you wan't to give your own opinion on health matters that's one thing. If you claim that your dietary practices should be followed by others in order for them to be most pleasing to God then that is another thing.

 

[tim-from-pa]

If you wan't to give your own opinion on health matters that's one thing. If you claim that your dietary practices should be followed by others in order for them to be most pleasing to God then that is another thing.

I think God is pleased if we are healthy. Simple as that. The main idea I'm trying to convey is that the medical and "anti-meat" advice given today is abysmally poor advice to stay healthy. I get a tad irritated when the dietary and worldly advice given today is then convoluted to be the same as biblical advice. I just want people aware of the two sources and not confuse them with the same. That's all.

 

[RoadDebris]

I think God is pleased if we are healthy. Simple as that. The main idea I'm trying to convey is that the medical and "anti-meat" advice given today is abysmally poor advice to stay healthy. I get a tad irritated when the dietary and worldly advice given today is then convoluted to be the same as biblical advice. I just want people aware of the two sources and not confuse them with the same. That's all.

I'm with you on the wisdom of being healthy. Health is good. Maybe I shouldn't eat bacon three times a day and I definitely can't be around those dang Girl Scout shortbread cookies, but I also think we need to be aware of our own tendency toward legalism. I'd rather be unhealthy than to tie someone down with a stumbling block.

 

[Mike]

Matthew 15
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23650">16</sup> “Are you still so dull?†Jesus asked them. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23651">17</sup> “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23652">18</sup> But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23653">19</sup> For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23654">20</sup> These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’â€

It really seems to me that if this were an issue dear to God's Heart, we wouldn't have Jesus saying what He said and we wouldn't have Peter receiving his revelation. The Word is very consistent in focusing on the heart of a person. If eating meat was not the best option, wouldn't there be something to draw upon other than the first 8 chapters of Genesis??

In spite of what I've said, I'll be honest and say I don't like to eat animal products. I don't like to eat eggs or drink milk, especially when I over-think it and realize what I'm eating. It just doesn't sit well with me. Drinking milk and thinking it was from a cow... it's almost as bad as drinking Pepsi!

Dora, I'm curious how you kill your heads. I used to work with a guy who's brother owned a cattle farm. They used a hammer to the forehead to kill them. I was kind of surprised that in this day & age, it would be a hammer to the head! It is probably a very painless way to put them down. It just sounds archaic. Heck, call George Cloony over and have him stare at them!

[video=youtube;LVQtIEyecZQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVQtIEyecZQ[/video]

Sorry! A little levity!

 

[RoadDebris]

@Mike, ROTFLMBO!

 

[tim-from-pa]

Mike:

Let's get this straight. I'm the one who is saying to eat meats. The theme of the thread is NOT to eat them, or at least eat them little. Now, in all honesty, who is giving more freedom here? And to think, I'm using God's law to ALLOW people to eat what others are saying NOT TO. To put it bluntly, I'm the one grilling the burgers. Some of the others rather have soy tofu and put it on the rest of the people denouncing the "evils" of eating meat. God's Law, if one is controlled by the Spirit, is never restrictive.

 

[Mike]

Mike:

Let's get this straight. I'm the one who is saying to eat meats. The theme of the thread is NOT to eat them, or at least eat them little. Now, in all honesty, who is giving more freedom here? And to think, I'm using God's law to ALLOW people to eat what others are saying NOT TO. To put it bluntly, I'm the one grilling the burgers. Some of the others rather have soy tofu and put it on the rest of the people denouncing the "evils" of eating meat. God's Law, if one is controlled by the Spirit, is never restrictive.

Did you think I was addressing you with that post? How could I be? I believe we're in agreement. I switch lanes and spoke of my own personal taste, but my taste has nothing to do with my freedom to eat what I choose. More to the OP, I tried to add a little to the case that eating meat is something God never says NOT to do. He, in fact, makes it clear that it is, IMO.

RoadDebris, that scene always makes me laugh!

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Animal rights????!

I know that some Christians do indeed believe, in spite of Genesis 9, that it is sin to eat animals.

But, in fact, There will be "Christians" That assign a SUPERSTITIOUS "Sinful status" to everything from missing church attendance on Easter to "singing Christians songs with instrumental accompaniment", or using more than one cup for communion.

Given the normal foolishness of religious folks, I've often wondered why there haven't been churches formed around Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

They could provide hospital grade sterile amputation services - for the glory of God!!!! What we need to think of is a good Denominational name for it. "Church of the Holy Mutilation" maybe.

Yes, in Genesis 9, God did give the animals to be eaten...but, was that just a "temporary" thing

OF COURSE NOT!!!! That's completely OBVIOUS from both the dietary directives in the Mosaic law, and the comments on diet in the NEW Testament that the consumption of meat was a COMPLETELY PERMISSIBLE normal practice for both Jews, and Christians alike.

Nothing wrong with being a "Vegan" if that floats your boat, but trying to tie that dietary superstition to everybody else is TOTALLY out of line.

Personally I LOVE animals - they're delicious!!!!! And I love Vegetables too. After all, vegetables are what FOOD eats.

 

[handy]

Matthew 15
<sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23650">16</sup> “Are you still so dull?†Jesus asked them. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23651">17</sup> “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23652">18</sup> But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23653">19</sup> For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. <sup class="versenum" id="en-NIV1984-23654">20</sup> These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean.’â€

It really seems to me that if this were an issue dear to God's Heart, we wouldn't have Jesus saying what He said and we wouldn't have Peter receiving his revelation. The Word is very consistent in focusing on the heart of a person. If eating meat was not the best option, wouldn't there be something to draw upon other than the first 8 chapters of Genesis??

In spite of what I've said, I'll be honest and say I don't like to eat animal products. I don't like to eat eggs or drink milk, especially when I over-think it and realize what I'm eating. It just doesn't sit well with me. Drinking milk and thinking it was from a cow... it's almost as bad as drinking Pepsi!

Dora, I'm curious how you kill your heads. I used to work with a guy who's brother owned a cattle farm. They used a hammer to the forehead to kill them. I was kind of surprised that in this day & age, it would be a hammer to the head! It is probably a very painless way to put them down. It just sounds archaic. Heck, call George Cloony over and have him stare at them!

[video=youtube;LVQtIEyecZQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVQtIEyecZQ[/video]

Sorry! A little levity!

That scene cracked me up...I've not seen the movie, but I want to.

Regarding how we kill our animals...gunshot right into the head. We don't use the head meat, so quick and painless is the way we like to go. One shot, and it's down.

Again, I don't think there is anything sinful about eating animals...well the clincher is that Jesus ate fish and lamb, so how could there be?

Just whether or not, since God did create us to be vegetarian, should we strive to be...especially since industrial farming, where so many do get there meat from the grocery stores leads to animals abuse and is hard on the ecosystem, two things not consistent with good stewardship.

 

[WIP]

Dora, I'm not sure I'm understanding the point behind the point. God Created the world with His Design, and then set His Plan of Redemption in place when sin entered the world. Having all Foreknowledge, can't we assume this was His ultimate Plan all along?

So He changed the design of His Creation to allow for "some" meats for His people. With Christ, came the freedom to eat meat of all kinds. Which plan was His "Plan"?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, and I realize you're not saying it's sinful to eat meat. But I'm not sure I see the significance of an original Design when God Himself exacted the change.

Along with this thought I then wonder about those animals that are now carnivores. Why did God change their plan from omnivore to carnivore even though they are not guilty of sin?