Annihilationism ignores important Scriptures?

[turnorburn]

Annihilationism contradicts what the bible says about the way we were created.. making it a false doctrine.. i my opinion. .. edited by Reba
tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Annihilationism contradicts what the bible says about the way we were created.. making it a false doctrine..edited
tob

What does it contradict exactly? And why should you try and find out who is spreading this? I came to this position merely from studying my Bible and then came to find out that it was extremely popular.

What would you do if you found them? I am not one of those people spreading the "manure" that God doesn't torture people forever?

 

[Free]

There is actually no problem here.

tor·ture
noun
noun: torture
1.
the action or practice of inflicting severe pain on someone as a punishment or to force them to do or say something, or for the pleasure of the person inflicting the pain.

tor·ment
noun
noun: torment; plural noun: torments
1.
severe physical or mental suffering.

If a person's "torment" is as a result of their being punished actively by another agent, then this is rightly called torture. Both words come originally from the Latin word torquere (to twist).

These words properly describe the Eternal Conscious Torment view, because God in this view, is the one who is actively tormenting/torturing them.

But you are selecting which definition of torment you want. Notice that it is also "mental suffering". Torment can be caused either from without or from within. If people are in torment, it isn't necessarily God's doing. I find the "eternal torture/physical pain" argument to be rather a strawman, as the Bible doesn't teach that, although it does say people will be in torment.

 

[Free]

Undermines what in particular? Interesting how annihilationists are the only ones who have actually attempted to handle what Jesus had to say in this thread thus far.

I've already dealt with it in another thread, no need to reiterate it here.

 

[jasoncran]

But you are selecting which definition of torment you want. Notice that it is also "mental suffering". Torment can be caused either from without or from within. If people are in torment, it isn't necessarily God's doing. I find the "eternal torture/physical pain" argument to be rather a strawman, as the Bible doesn't teach that, although it does say people will be in torment.

police you mental tormenting in there methods of getting suspect to talk. its a rather last resort but they do it.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But you are selecting which definition of torment you want. Notice that it is also "mental suffering". Torment can be caused either from without or from within. If people are in torment, it isn't necessarily God's doing. I find the "eternal torture/physical pain" argument to be rather a strawman, as the Bible doesn't teach that, although it does say people will be in torment.

I selected the #1 definition of the word, please don't infer some kind of dishonesty on my part in trying to twist the evidence to fit my case.

These people in the ETC view are actively receiving God's wrath poured out through them, either literally or figuratively via fire and sulfur. So let's follow the simple logic here.

1) Are these people suffering severe physical and mental suffering?
2) Are they suffering this at the hands of someone punishing them?
If yes then,
3) It is not improper to say that God would be torturing these people for all eternity.

Unless you're one of those people who say that God doesn't send people to hell, and that he has no part in what goes on there. I could refute that one rather easily.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I've already dealt with it in another thread, no need to reiterate it here.

What then was the point in bringing that up, if you were never going to defend that contention when I questioned it?

If you ask me any question, or raise an objection to anything I have said I will address it. Are you unable or simply unwilling to do the same?

Defend your contention here and now, that our position does not align with the words of Jesus.

 

[Free]

What then was the point in bringing that up, if you were never going to defend that contention when I questioned it?

If you ask me any question, or raise an objection to anything I have said I will address it. Are you unable or simply unwilling to do the same?

Defend your contention here and now, that our position does not align with the words of Jesus.

Well, it's not like I was addressing you or any other annhiliationist with that statement, was I? It's in another thread, so I am not going to bring into another one.

 

[Free]

I selected the #1 definition of the word, please don't infer some kind of dishonesty on my part in trying to twist the evidence to fit my case.

These people in the ETC view are actively receiving God's wrath poured out through them, either literally or figuratively via fire and sulfur. So let's follow the simple logic here.

1) Are these people suffering severe physical and mental suffering?
2) Are they suffering this at the hands of someone punishing them?
If yes then,
3) It is not improper to say that God would be torturing these people for all eternity.

Unless you're one of those people who say that God doesn't send people to hell, and that he has no part in what goes on there. I could refute that one rather easily.

I was simply stating that you weren't attempting use every definition of 'torment'. Again, using a valid definition of torment, it may not be anything God is doing to them. Most of the ETC view do believe that those in hell will be in physical torment forever, but that is not what Scripture states. However, it is possible they may be in mental torment and anguish forever, after having undergone a limited physical punishment, as Scripture states.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Well, it's not like I was addressing you or any other annhiliationist with that statement, was I? It's in another thread, so I am not going to bring into another one.

You said, "Of course I will continue to argue that annihilationism undermines most of what Jesus said about hell and that it really isn't punishment at all."

Saying you will continue to argue, and yet not provide any argument when asked leaves me wondering. What you said before was simply a statement, not an argument.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I was simply stating that you weren't attempting use every definition of 'torment'. Again, using a valid definition of torment, it may not be anything God is doing to them. Most of the ETC view do believe that those in hell will be in physical torment forever, but that is not what Scripture states. However, it is possible they may be in mental torment and anguish forever, after having undergone a limited physical punishment, as Scripture states.

Here are some more definitions.

tor·ment
n.
1. Great physical pain or mental anguish.
2. A source of harassment, annoyance, or pain.
3. The torture inflicted on prisoners under interrogation.[1]

1tor·ment
noun
: extreme physical or mental pain
: something that causes extreme physical or mental pain[2]


torment
noun
4.a state of great bodily or mental suffering; agony; misery.
5.something that causes great bodily or mental pain or suffering.
6.a source of much trouble, worry, or annoyance.
7.an instrument of torture, as the rack or the thumbscrew.
8.the infliction of torture by means of such an instrument or the torture so inflicted.[3]

From these definitions, there is nothing that would possibly discredit my point. Whether it is physical or mental torment, it does not matter. What matters is that they are suffering this as a punishment, which is being exercised on them by a personal agent, namely God. Torture and Torment are both valid ways to communicate the ECT view.

[1] http://www.thefreedictionary.com/torment
[2] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/torment
[3] http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/torment

 

[Free]

From these definitions, there is nothing that would possibly discredit my point. Whether it is physical or mental torment, it does not matter. What matters is that they are suffering this as a punishment, which is being exercised on them by a personal agent, namely God. Torture and Torment are both valid ways to communicate the ECT view.

It does matter and it does discredit the argument to which I was initially addressing. Once again, torment does not necessary come from an outside source, it can come from within, quite apart from a personal agent.

And again, while eternal torture/physical torment is a common understanding among those of the ECT view, it lacks scriptural support, or at least fails to take into account all that Scripture states. Limited duration physical torment is scriptural, and eternal mental anguish/torment is not inconsistent with Scripture.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

It does matter and it does discredit the argument to which I was initially addressing. Once again, torment does not necessary come from an outside source, it can come from within, quite apart from a personal agent.

Let's follow the logic again.

1) These people are suffering this torment because they are serving their punishment.
2) God is the one who sentenced them to this punishment.
Therefore
3) God is ultimately responsible for their state of torment, and it would not be outside of his omniscient will to understand that this punishment would entail considerable physical and/or mental anguish.

God created hell, and he ultimately is the source cause of their suffering.

And again, while eternal torture/physical torment is a common understanding among those of the ECT view, it lacks scriptural support, or at least fails to take into account all that Scripture states.

It's the only logical position for one to take. If someone is suffering as a result of their punishment, this is torture. The Bible talks about how the wicked will suffer, the Bible also talks about God being the one who is pouring his wrath out on the wicked in the final punishment. How can you possibly deny these claims?

 

[Free]

Let's follow the logic again.

1) These people are suffering this torment because they are serving their punishment.
2) God is the one who sentenced them to this punishment.
Therefore
3) God is ultimately responsible for their state of torment, and it would not be outside of his omniscient will to understand that this punishment would entail considerable physical and/or mental anguish.

1) People in prisons face rape, possible murder, physical abuse, etc., causing significant mental anguish. These people are suffering this torment because they are serving their punishment.
2) A judge is the one who sentenced them to this punishment.
Therefore,
3) The judge is ultimately responsible for their state of torment, and it would not be outside the knowledge of the judge that this punishment would entail considerable physical and/or mental anguish.

Is the judge really responsible?

God created hell, and he ultimately is the source cause of their suffering.

How?

It's the only logical position for one to take.

What is the only logical position?

If someone is suffering as a result of their punishment, this is torture. The Bible talks about how the wicked will suffer, the Bible also talks about God being the one who is pouring his wrath out on the wicked in the final punishment. How can you possibly deny these claims?

Where have I denied these claims?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

1) People in prisons face rape, possible murder, physical abuse, etc., causing significant mental anguish. These people are suffering this torment because they are serving their punishment.
2) A judge is the one who sentenced them to this punishment.
Therefore,
3) The judge is ultimately responsible for their state of torment, and it would not be outside the knowledge of the judge that this punishment would entail considerable physical and/or mental anguish.

Fallacy of the Weak Analogy.

What's missing here is intent, God sends the wicked to hell in his wrath. There in the intention to inflict suffering, as he was the one who created and designed hell. A better analogy would be a judge who planned prior to the person going to prison, all that would happen to him. A judge in a court of law, has no control over these things but assigns a punishment of incarceration as a result of their crimes.

How?

Say that I created a mechanical torture chamber and sent someone to go through it. I am not actively torturing them, but I am the source of their torture because it leads back to the fact that 1) I created the chamber, and 2) I sent them there.

Even if God is not active in the torturing, he still would be responsible as the ultimate cause, as he intended that all the wicked would suffer for eternity.

What is the only logical position?

That God according to the ECT, God intended for billions of humans to suffer a torturous existence for all eternity.

Where have I denied these claims?

If you do not deny these claims then I don't see how you can disagree with my conclusion.

1) God creates hell, with the foreknowledge that he will send billions of humans there.
2) God sends the wicked to this place as a punishment.
3) Hell is a place where suffering will, by design take place at an immeasurable level.
Conclusion:
4) God is the source cause of their suffering, which is as a result of their punishment and therefore qualifies as torture, whether physical or mental.

 

[turnorburn]

For as many times that I've posted the reason hell was created not one person has picked up on it. That eternal torment was meant for Satan and his followers not for Gods people..He created us in His image God is an eternal being we live eternally whether it be eternal life or eternal damnation the eternal damnation that was meant for the devil..The choice is ours. When you pass another human being on the street does your heart tear you apart knowing that they will spend eternity in a place of suffering for ever and ever and ever if they don't know Jesus?

tob

 

[Doulos Iesou]

For as many times that I've posted the reason hell was created not one person has picked up on it. That eternal torment was meant for Satan and his followers not for Gods people..He created us in His image God is an eternal being we live eternally whether it be eternal life or eternal damnation the eternal damnation that was meant for the devil..The choice is ours. When you pass another human being on the street does your heart tear you apart knowing that they will spend eternity in a place of suffering for ever and ever and ever if they don't know Jesus?

tob

"We live eternally whether it be eternal life or eternal damnation." The Greek word that used to be translated "damnation," is κρίμα and it denotes condemnation, the judgement of wrong doing. Nothing in this infers an immortal existence, but rather an everlasting condemnation. Just the opposite eternal life is a phrase where the adjective eternal or everlasting modifies the word life, and denotes an immortal existence.

On a personal note, I have much hope for humanity because I can trust in the goodness and justice of God. My heart doesn't have to constantly break, because I know of the Joy that I have in Christ who has conquered death and is restoring all things to a point where one day all will be made new and sin, suffering and death will be utterly at an end. The times when my heart does break, is when I realize that they don't know such a great savior... rather than fearing that he might send these people to be tormented for all eternity.

 

[turnorburn]

Your trusting in the goodness of man God isn't a man that He should lie God is holy man isn't.. He does things differently than we do..

Man has preconceived ideas about our creator..

Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

tob

 

[TimothyW]

I don't want to mince words with you. You have stated, "I do believe there is an eternal punishment..."

I agree. The punishment that God speaks about is eternal.

We all agree that the punishment is eternal. And here is Paul telling us what that eternal punishment consists of "the wages of sin is death". There are hundreds of passages in the Bible that say the punishment is death destruction perishing being consumed by fire, being more, etc.

We all agree that there is eternal punishment and this punishment is death.

 

[chessman]

He created us in His image God is an eternal being we live eternally ...
tob

Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Man is created mortal not eternal. Without Christ, man is just as mortal as birds and dogs are. How can this fact not be obviuos?

Somebody has taught you error. It is plain in so many Scriptures, that man is not created as an immortal creature at birth.

Do you not read Romans 1:23 and 1Cor 15 and see that the "image of God" DOES NOT mean immortality?

"the image of God" in Genesis means a lot of things, but immortality is not one of them.

1Cor 15:53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

People can say things like: He created us in His image God is an eternal being we live eternally...

However, you cannot find one Scripture that says that except those that have Christ (saved people). It is flat out wrong and there are so many Scriptures that teach against that notion, it's astonishing that it's taught.

1Tim 6: 15 —God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone is immortal ...

Your teaching that Adam was created immortal is an affront to the Gospel:

2 Tim 1:10
Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

Immortality is brought about through Christ and the Gospel, not Adam. Not in the creation of Adam or in his descendants are we made immortal.

Why do you think Adam needed access to The Tree of Life?

Talk about posting against the SoF! We believe that there is only one God, who is eternal and immutable, ...

Versus:
He created us in His image. God is an eternal being we live eternally...

You are claiming the first Adam to be created, not in the image of God, but rather an eternal god himself. living on eternally (one place or the other). That's a lie:
Gen 2:4 "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman.

But, there's more to the story:

Job 4:17
‘Can mortal man be in the right before God? Can a man be pure before his Maker?

Answer=yes, but only through Christ!
2 Tim 1:10
Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel,

The lost don't have Christ created in them at their(our) birth. Only at our re-birth do we receive Christ and His gift of eternal life. We are made a new creation (born again) in the Second Adam (Christ), not the first Adam.