Doulos Iesou,
I see from the beginning you did not address my original question. I will continue if you address it.
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Annihilationism ignores important Scriptures?
- Thread starter Doulos Iesou
- Start date
I see from the beginning you did not address my original question. I will continue if you address it.
Doulos Iesou
Member
A few problems with this.
1) How was the rich man in the state of the final punishment if Jesus was speaking of an event that happened far in the past (during the time of the prophets if you think this was alluding to an actual event).
2) Hades is Sheol, the OT understanding of the afterlife where the righteous and wicked both went, it is not Gehenna. The KJV translating Hades as Hell has lead many astray, and is a terrible translation of this passage.
3) Where is the warning in this passage?
4) This is a parable, in the midst of several parables, and it is about the inclusion of the Gentiles and foretelling of the rejection of Jesus by the Jews, "they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."
Newer translations fix the problem of the KJV:
In Hades, where he was in torment NIV
and in Hades, being in torment ESV
In Hades he lifted up his eyes NASB
And being in torment in Hades HCSB
and in the hades having lifted up his eyes YLT
And the Greek text here:
καὶ (and) ἐν (in) ᾅδῃ (Hades) ἐπάρας (having lifted up) τοὺς (the - not provided in English translations) ὀφθαλμοὺς (eyes) αὐτοῦ (of him)
Doulos Iesou
Member
What original question? We are discussing that very issue right here I believe, which is built on your assumption of how the Greek phrase κόλασιν αἰώνιον operates.
Therefore I am addressing/dealing with your original question right now.
turnorburn
Member
Jesus said he was tormented in the flames are you saying those flames die out on a given date?
tob
What's this a child couldn't understand it.. great swelling words have there place but not in the kingdom of God..
καὶ (and) ἐν (in) ᾅδῃ (Hades) ἐπάρας (having lifted up) τοὺς (the - not provided in English translations) ὀφθαλμοὺς (eyes) αὐτοῦ (of him)
tob
What's this a child couldn't understand it.. great swelling words have there place but not in the kingdom of God..
καὶ (and) ἐν (in) ᾅδῃ (Hades) ἐπάρας (having lifted up) τοὺς (the - not provided in English translations) ὀφθαλμοὺς (eyes) αὐτοῦ (of him)
Doulos Iesou
Member
I don't think Jesus is randomly giving the crowd a teaching on hell, I think it's a parable, told in allegorical form to speak about the coming future of the Jewish people.
Also, I was giving the Greek text, along with the English translation (as literal as possible) to demonstrate that the Greek word is Hades not hell, and therefore your translation is greatly in error. A point you did not address.
tim-from-pa
Member
Just a humorous side note, maybe I should change my status to "Christian" again, because I changed it at one time since I did not accept a lot of the "Orthodox" doctrines, so according to many I was not a Christian. Doesn't bother me one way or the other (It used to, but now I grew callous to it). But now that I see there are several people here who believe as I do, I feel in better company. I used to believe in eternal conscious torment like the mainline until I did my own study, and those who defend the idea of being destroyed have better biblical arguments. The whole "eternal conscious torment" doctrine hinges on the "immortal soul" doctrine. Something the bible does not teach, but the devil does by saying "You will not die!" (Genesis 3:3-4). And if one exists forever, then they have not experienced the second death, because the intrinsic definition of death and destruction is cessation of existence. If that's the case, then God is a liar and I think the devil is right.
In which Greek grammar does it specify that any time aionios is paired with a noun, it signifies a process that has a completion?
Most students of the Greek will know exactly what this question is.
Eternal punishment is being presented to us as the process of annihilation. There should be a grammatical rule to THIS presentation. So give us one.
turnorburn
Member
Doulos said:
Jesus said he was tormented in the flames
Jesus also says in Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
tob
Jesus said he was tormented in the flames
Jesus also says in Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
tob
Doulos Iesou
Member
Where are you getting this idea of "process," the Greek word αἰώνιον functions as an attributive adjective and modifies κόλασιν, in order to clarify in this case the type or duration of the punishment. It could be seen as 1) the punishment that happens in the age to come, and 2) the duration of that punishment.
I do not think it speaks to the process of the destruction, as that would differ depending on the degree of the person's punishment. However, we all agree the punishment has no end. The only camp who would contest this are universalists (who we will not discuss here per the terms of agreement), and that is because of their understanding of the word αἰώνιον and κόλασιν.
To conclude, here is one last presentation of our argument.
Eternal punishment is as a result of the final judgement, where the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, the eternal fire which consumes. Here, they experience the second death, from which there is no resurrection or return, but a total cutting off from all the blessings of the new creation. It marks the end of evil and suffering for all time, and is God's final triumph over darkness.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Find me one other instance where Hades/Sheol is a place of fire and torture. I can provide you dozens of examples that would contradict that notion, and demonstrate further that your interpretation constitutes a contradiction in the understanding of Hades/Sheol.
Doulos Iesou
Member
You absolutely should, you are among brothers here!
Butch5
Member
Hi Tim,
I think the key point in your post here is "my own study". I think if Christians would approach the Scriptures with an open mind rather than taking their theological doctrines to the Scriptures they'd be amazed at how different the Bible is from what we've been taught.
Seems this can apply to every one...
jasoncran
Member
if you do then go to non greek speaking or any influence of jewish sources.
chabad.org is one place.
jewfact.org is another.
Doulos Iesou
Member
I was referring to the Old Testament and New Testament, not sources outside of the Bible. I am aware of what first Century Jews believed about the after-life.
jasoncran
Member
what about the greek myths, why would a Hebrew translate the word grave which in Hebrew isn't sheol but queber to hades? and hades being so associated to the Hellenistic jews that they would automatically assume that they meant either:
1) hades the god of the underworld?
2) HADES THE abode of the dead with all its nature.
and to show from a good source
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Sheol
and hades.
http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Hades
I have listen to pastor teach on love and he used extrabiblical uses for each word in the greek all but agape are agape common. agape was used one time in that language and its was for a description of a worshippers love for her god. in the greek culture that type of love was scorned. the Christians made it to be used only for them. based on that the jewish sheol has to have some reference and we both know we have the kaddish, which is older then the nt and was around then at the time of Christ. and even earlier. hades is just to close to that concept.
Doulos Iesou
Member
Hades was a much later interpretation, which was based upon their belief of what Sheol was. Most basically was the concept of it being the abode of the dead, with which I don't really have any problem. It's a stretch to then go beyond that and try to equate the details of Sheol and Hades as being the same.
I believe you're under the impression that I believe the word "Sheol" can only be translated grave. Many people that hold to my position also embrace Monism, but I am not particularly convinced of that. I was merely asking for the poster to provide any Biblical evidence (besides the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man) that Hades/Sheol was a place of fire and torment.
Even in that source you provided, it pointed out a clear distinction between Hades and Hell.
jasoncran
Member
I don't call hades , hell . gehenna as described by john the jews teach almost the same. they are universalist in their approach but they calling it purge of sin by fire. meaning much pain and until you decide it enough.im not a uu but that is what they teach. sheol can mean pit but.
Jonah was a in a pit when he cried out of the belly of sheol thou didst hear me? sheol had two levels. one for the wicked and one for the righteous. the jews called the blessed dwelling place gan eden. it wasn't under the earth nor with sheol but that can also be the case as gan eden its mention by name in the bible but by way of the oral traditions. either or.
jasoncran
Member
you do release that the jews call the lxx idolatry? why?because its like this. you don't speak Hebrew. I give you bible in English. read it and walk away never to teach you the bible you have. you are left clueless. that is what the greeks asked the jews to do. they were more then willing to translate the tanach into greek provided they were allowed to teach the greeks/ Hellenistic jews what the tanach meant. thus that is why I call the lxx the niv of the tanach. if I want to know what the Hebrew says I go to it.
compare genesis which simply means origin in greek. to the bereshit in Hebrew which means in the beginning and they don't just teach it literally like we greek influenced men do but go into the words and renderings of what that means. ie the start of our NATION. YOU WONT get that from straight reading. the shabat and week is vital to them and to even claim we are of god.no shabat, no isreal!if one didn't know that and just read that one wouldn't see it unless the hs showed that. that isn't to say that the Lord wasn't in the lxx, he was he just used it later on.i personally find it odd given that he did that the church(protestant) doesn't use the lxx for any sources of the ot but uses the Masoretic text from the jews who did so after ad 70.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic
that said can you show me in the greek how hades means only dead with no ability to know or think?
compare genesis which simply means origin in greek. to the bereshit in Hebrew which means in the beginning and they don't just teach it literally like we greek influenced men do but go into the words and renderings of what that means. ie the start of our NATION. YOU WONT get that from straight reading. the shabat and week is vital to them and to even claim we are of god.no shabat, no isreal!if one didn't know that and just read that one wouldn't see it unless the hs showed that. that isn't to say that the Lord wasn't in the lxx, he was he just used it later on.i personally find it odd given that he did that the church(protestant) doesn't use the lxx for any sources of the ot but uses the Masoretic text from the jews who did so after ad 70.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masoretic
that said can you show me in the greek how hades means only dead with no ability to know or think?