anti-Christ

[scutato]

1. Paul said Jesus came in the likeness of men, or in the likeness of sinful flesh....

2. Likeness of men means similar to, or appearing like...

3. Likeness of sinful flesh.....means looking like, but not really sinful flesh.

4. John states that those with the spirit of antichrist will deny that Christ came in the flesh....

The flaw in your argument is point #3. Paul did say Jesus came in the likeness of man. That doesn't mean He didn't really come as a man, it means He wasn't just a man.

Do you mean to tell me you believe Jesus was a man and nothing more? Jesus is like us, but not EXACTLY like us. That is, He came to us as a man, but He's also God!

 

[mutzrein]

JTB

Once again I find it really hard to follow the content of your post. Now I don't want to negate the validity of what you want to say but I can't understand what the issue is that you have with my post(s).

So, please tell in a sentence or two what I have said that you believe is wrong.

Thanks

 

[scorpia]

I have noticed in a number of threads, folks accusing others of either being ‘anti-Christ’ or having the ‘spirit of the anti-Christ’.

Now scripture tells us: 1 John 2:22 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichristâ€â€he denies the Father and the Son. and 2 John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist.

Now, in raising this issue, I am not wanting to promote any specific theology but surely if a person acknowledges that Jesus is the Christ he should not have to suffer this accusation irrespective of another element of his theology that is not commonly accepted by Christendom.

Do you agree that the antichrist is simply anyone who denies that Jesus is the Lord God or the Christ.

I wholeheartedly accept that Jesus is the Christ and He is my Lord but his Father is both His God and mine.

Fine but can you simplify who the antichrist is based on your perception today?

 

[scorpia]

Do you agree that the antichrist is simply anyone who denies that Jesus is the Lord God or the Christ.

Look at all of the false teachers, prophets, etc. out there who confess Jesus as Lord, yet they deny Him through their deceptive teachings and lives. We see it all the time here on the forums.

Saying Jesus is Lord is not the actual reverse meaning of denying Christ. In your statement above, it is clear that they, false teachers and prophets, deny Jesus is the Christ or God because their only means of learning is the written words or the scriptures which to many is no other but the bible of today (not that I debase the bible but just to drive a point of what you're saying above). Jesus is the real and alive God but Jesus is not the bible to which the false teachers and false prophets of today do get their teachings based on their own understanding of what they only read from it. If they acknowledge Jesus is the Christ or God, then they should have been totally under the custody and tutelage of the real and alive God, Jesus Christ himself and not just of the bible. They, the false prophets and teachers of today are just coming from the bible or any other written scriptures and not from Jesus himself who is the real and alive God, hence denying Jesus is the Christ or God..

So what? Even the demons believe and tremble.

Believe what?

 

[John the Baptist]

1. Paul said Jesus came in the likeness of men, or in the likeness of sinful flesh....

2. Likeness of men means similar to, or appearing like...

3. Likeness of sinful flesh.....means looking like, but not really sinful flesh.

4. John states that those with the spirit of antichrist will deny that Christ came in the flesh....

The flaw in your argument is point #3. Paul did say Jesus came in the likeness of man. That doesn't mean He didn't really come as a man, it means He wasn't just a man.

Do you mean to tell me you believe Jesus was a man and nothing more? Jesus is like us, but not EXACTLY like us. That is, He came to us as a man, but He's also God!

***
The flaw in the argument??? When one defines the anti/Christ, the antiChrist is not termed 'a flaw' is he??? That is like calling the pope & his 'knowledgeable' crew a Christian! This bird has his wings clipped so many times, why do any even respond to his Genesis 4:7 stuff? (K.J.) Anti/Christ define that Christ is a flawed product.. bottom line. (1 John 4:2-3) & Paul who is chosen by Christ is also flawed! Acts 9:15
---John

 

[mutzrein]

I wholeheartedly accept that Jesus is the Christ and He is my Lord but his Father is both His God and mine.

Fine but can you simplify who the antichrist is based on your perception today?

The antichrist is not a single person or individual entity as some would have us believe.

It is the pervading spirit within a person, a group, an institution, a society, a tribe, a nation that denies that Jesus was sent from God to be found in the likeness of man. And this man Christ Jesus, was born of a virgin, destined to die as the spotless lamb of God so that all who believe in Him (and the One who sent Him) may inherit eternal life.

Is this simple enough?

 

[John the Baptist]

I wholeheartedly accept that Jesus is the Christ and He is my Lord but his Father is both His God and mine.

Fine but can you simplify who the antichrist is based on your perception today?

The antichrist is not a single person or individual entity as some would have us believe.

It is the pervading spirit within a person, a group, an institution, a society, a tribe, a nation that denies that Jesus was sent from God to be found in the likeness of man. And this man Christ Jesus, was born of a virgin, destined to die as the spotless lamb of God so that all who believe in Him (and the One who sent Him) may inherit eternal life.

Is this simple enough?

****
John here: Hi! Too simple!! :wink: There is much more. Not about anti/Christ per/say, but about who Christ was before He Became the Son of God. This too can be material of the anti/Christ!?

That requires All Scripture to understand the 'DOCTRINE OF CHRIST'! The 2 Timothy 3:16's Doctrine, & Matthew 4:4 Complete Required DIET! Huh?

So, tell us who the Inspired Word of God 'IS', that gave us the Acts 7:38 TRUTH? OH', and for us not to be in ignorance : , Paul gave me more in 1 Cor. 10:1-3 (*in the K.J.) Also check Nehemiah 9:6-15. Whom is this.. man?? Son of God?? Or was it God before He ... '[I WILL DECLARE THE DECREE]; THE LORD SAID UNTO ME, THOU ART MY SON; [THIS DAY] HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE."???

 

[Georges]

1. Paul said Jesus came in the likeness of men, or in the likeness of sinful flesh....

2. Likeness of men means similar to, or appearing like...

3. Likeness of sinful flesh.....means looking like, but not really sinful flesh.

4. John states that those with the spirit of antichrist will deny that Christ came in the flesh....

The flaw in your argument is point #3.

No flaw....Likeness of Sinful flesh...means he had a body that wasn't mortal...as all flesh is sinful, or affected by a sinful world....That Jesus came in in a body "appearing" to look like a human, is a Gnostic teaching.


A question to you.....Do you believe that Jesus would have lived forever in the body he was born in?

Paul did say Jesus came in the likeness of man. That doesn't mean He didn't really come as a man, it means He wasn't just a man.

Do you mean to tell me you believe Jesus was a man and nothing more?

Jesus was 100% man.....he was empowered with/by Jehovah's Holy Spirit upon his baptism...

Jesus is like us, but not EXACTLY like us.

Wrong.....Jesus was exactly like us....he was a righteous man who upon his baptism was empowered to do Jehovah's will by Jehovah's Holy Spirit. Jesus was here to show us how to live righteously, and worship God through a deeper meaning of the Torah. By doing that, and by our accepting that (worshipping God by trying to righteously obey Torah) as Jesus showed us, is how Jesus saved us. If we love God, and our fellow man as Jesus stated, we are obeying God by living by his word (Torah).

That is, He came to us as a man, but He's also God!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that one...depending on your definition of "God".

No flaw my freind....at least as yet not pointed out conclusively.

 

[scutato]

Jesus was more than just a man before His baptism as well. Did He have all the power of God at his disposal? Maybe not, but as I recall there's nothing that specifically states that. Doesn't really matter though, because regardless what power He possessed before His baptism, He was still the Son of God, and not a normal man. Not exactly like us, which is why I have no problem with Paul saying He came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

That's my argument, and I'm stickin' to it! :D

 

[Georges]

Jesus was more than just a man before His baptism as well.

What miracles and such did he perform? Why the silence before the baptism?

Did He have all the power of God at his disposal?

I believe Jehovah did take care of him as Jehovah had a special purpose for him to perform...

Maybe not, but as I recall there's nothing that specifically states that. Doesn't really matter though, because regardless what power He possessed before His baptism, He was still the Son of God, and not a normal man.

and that is Gnostic teaching.....or, one of their accepted tenets....Jesus was not a normal man...Jesus did not appear in "sinful flesh". Whether Jesus sinned or not is irrelevant....(I personally believe he kept Torah perfectly), what is important is that he was righteous because he did kept Torah perfectly as a man born in sinful flesh.

Not exactly like us, which is why I have no problem with Paul saying He came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

Again, a Gnostic belief....Gnostic's believed that Christ descended from heaven in what appeared to be the form of a man, but since he was God, it wasn't really sinful flesh, but rather it LOOKED LIKE sinful flesh....

That is what John calls antichrist.......

That's my argument, and I'm stickin' to it! :D

Keep stickin....if that's your belief....

question....if the Gnostic's were branded heretics because they believed that Christ didn't come in the flesh (real flesh), why wasn't Paul accused of the same.....? Oh wait a minute....he was accused of being an Apostate by the Nazarene/Ebionite society.

 

[scutato]

You're adding to my words. I'm not saying Jesus wasn't tempted by sin in the same way we are, or that He was incapable of sinning. I'm saying that He was significant in a way that none of us are: he was the Son of God. We were not (though we are now via adoption).

Paul wasn't saying Jesus was incapable of sinning. If he was trying to make any point with his choice of words (doubtful), it was that Jesus wasn't only a man, He was also the Son of God.

I say it's doubtful that he was trying to make a point with his choice of words because he was already trying to make another point (that Jesus became flesh to do what the law could not do, because it was weak through the flesh).

Aside from that, let's look a couple verses right after one of your "proof texts" that Paul was a heretic, Philippians 2:8:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

At first this seems to confirm your point, but let's look up the Greek word for fashion:

4976. schema {skhay'-ma}

1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.

 

[Georges]

You're adding to my words. I'm not saying Jesus wasn't tempted by sin in the same way we are, or that He was incapable of sinning. I'm saying that He was significant in a way that none of us are: he was the Son of God. We were not (though we are now via adoption).

Sorry...didn't mean to add to your words...just trying to get what you wrote down correctly....thanks for doing that in the response....my addition? is what could have been taken for what you meant.

Paul wasn't saying Jesus was incapable of sinning. If he was trying to make any point with his choice of words (doubtful), it was that Jesus wasn't only a man, He was also the Son of God.


No...now you are adding....Paul stated Jesus came in the "likeness" of human flesh...He didn't say "in the flesh". Now, you may not think that it matters much....but it does. There is a big difference with the addition of one word "likeness" and to whom Paul was preaching to.

I say it's doubtful that he was trying to make a point with his choice of words because he was already trying to make another point (that Jesus became flesh to do what the law could not do, because it was weak through the flesh).

Aside from that, let's look a couple verses right after one of your "proof texts" that Paul was a heretic, Philippians 2:8:

8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

At first this seems to confirm your point, but let's look up the Greek word for fashion:

4976. schema {skhay'-ma}

1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.

and, if you look at the other examples of the word (schema) in the NT, you will see that it is not the real thing, but a copy....

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Form of God.....Is Pre-incarnate Jesus, God or not?

Phl 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

Greek for 3667

Pronunciation Guide
homoioma {hom-oy'-o-mah}

TDNT Reference Root Word
TDNT - 5:191,684 from 3666

1) that which has been made after the likeness of something

a) a figure, image, likeness, representation

b) likeness i.e. resemblance, such as amounts almost to equality or identity

Phl 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

1) the habitus, as comprising everything in a person which strikes the senses, the figure, bearing, discourse, actions, manner of life etc.
For Synonyms see entry 5865

It all means the same...LIKENESS....which in essence means not real....but appears to be.

 

[Georges]

Back to the antichrist....actually, the False Messiah is a Jewish concept that predates the Christian version....

 

[jgredline]

:roll:

 

[Georges]

:roll:

tis true.....tis true.......

ARMILUS: (print this article)


By : Kaufmann Kohler Louis Ginzberg

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
Saadia's Tradition of Armilus.
Armilus in the Apocalyptic Midrashim.
Armilus and Satan.
The Later Armilus Legend.



In later Jewish eschatology and legend, a king who will arise at the end of time against the Messiah, and will be conquered by him after having brought much distress upon Israel. The origin of this Jewish Antichrist (as he can well be styled in view of his relation to the Messiah) is as much involved in doubt as the different phases of his development, and his relation to the Christian legend and doctrine.


For the full article....

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=armilus


J....you should have http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com marked in your favorites....always consult it when you are researching anything biblical.

 

[jgredline]

:roll:

tis true.....tis true.......

ARMILUS: (print this article)


By : Kaufmann Kohler Louis Ginzberg

ARTICLE HEADINGS:
Saadia's Tradition of Armilus.
Armilus in the Apocalyptic Midrashim.
Armilus and Satan.
The Later Armilus Legend.



In later Jewish eschatology and legend, a king who will arise at the end of time against the Messiah, and will be conquered by him after having brought much distress upon Israel. The origin of this Jewish Antichrist (as he can well be styled in view of his relation to the Messiah) is as much involved in doubt as the different phases of his development, and his relation to the Christian legend and doctrine.


For the full article....

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... ch=armilus


J....you should have http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com marked in your favorites....always consult it when you are researching anything biblical.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[John the Baptist]

Jesus was more than just a man before His baptism as well. Did He have all the power of God at his disposal? Maybe not, but as I recall there's nothing that specifically states that. Doesn't really matter though, because regardless what power He possessed before His baptism, He was still the Son of God, and not a normal man. Not exactly like us, which is why I have no problem with Paul saying He came in the likeness of sinful flesh.

That's my argument, and I'm stickin' to it! :D

****

John here: Remember that God has let the devil live on! And the forum here seems to also believe in religous liberty? (for a while longer at least)
But, when one plays with the devil, one can get burnt! And, your post leaves yourself wide open by saying 'maybe not'.

Colossians 1:13-18 tells 'ETERNITY' that Christ/God is Immortal as He is the CENTER/PIECE of ETERNITIES ETERNAL GOSPEL!! (Revelation 14:6)
Then you have the 'other' :robot: brain dead ones with an ETERNAL TEN COMMANDMENT COVENANT (Hebrews 13:20) with it too, having a start & ending! You need to watch your step!! The Hebrews 13:17 & Ezekiel 33:8-16 ones are far & few between!

These guys are so deeply schooled in satans garbage, that you need to be sure of the Word of God! See Titus 3:9-11.
Remember that this post is about the only subject that the poster knows of! That, & that Paul is also anti/God. [BOTTOM LINE!] If Christ is not whom He says that He is, He is a fake & anti/God. See Isaiah 9:6, Hebrews 1:8, John 1:1-4, & John 1:14 tells us who the Word is! And in Micah 5:2 (K.J.) we see the ETERNAL GOD/CHRIST! 'from EVERLASTING' Only God has Immortality! 1 Timothy 6:14-16 :fadein:

 

[jgredline]

John
That was a great post!!!
So true and so right on!!

 

[Georges]

John
That was a great post!!!
So true and so right on!!

:o : :D :-D :smt005 :

gotta chuckle boy's....gotta chuckle....

 

[Georges]

Sorry about the second icon....I didn't know that it would be obscene....I just clicked on the next smiley face...what is that doing on the christian emoticons anyway...