J
John the Baptist
Guest
Georges said:
Well, why did you not go back and deleate it!
--John
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
anti-Christ
- Thread starter mutzrein
- Start date
Well, why did you not go back and deleate it!
--John
G
Georges
Guest
John the Baptist said:Georges said:
Well, why did you not go back and deleate it!
--John
you can do that? I'll try it...
G
Georges
Guest
It worked......Hey moderator dudes.....you should remove the simley/robot emoticon....it transforms into a not so nice emoticon.
S
sigh1
Guest
There seems to be two very different discussions going on here.
1. Was Pauls teaching heretical?
and
2. The nature of antichrist.
My answers go like this.
If you belive in God then you also need to believe in the infallibility of Scripture. If you don't then you have no basis for quoting scripture in any sort of defence. And if you do believe in the infallibility of scripture, then you must believe that the inclusion of Paul's writings are valid. God would not allow anti-christian teaching to be included in what is meant to be his word to the people of the world. I don't think Paul's teachings were in anyway heretical.
As for Antichrist, scripture tells us that there are two types of antichrist.
There is the type that can be anyone, they are simple anti christ, or against christ.
The second type is The Antichrist. The man of lawlessness who will rule the world during the seven years of the tribulation. He is the Satanic answer to Jesus. He will be indwelt by the spirit of Satan, and perform miracles by his power.
1. Was Pauls teaching heretical?
and
2. The nature of antichrist.
My answers go like this.
If you belive in God then you also need to believe in the infallibility of Scripture. If you don't then you have no basis for quoting scripture in any sort of defence. And if you do believe in the infallibility of scripture, then you must believe that the inclusion of Paul's writings are valid. God would not allow anti-christian teaching to be included in what is meant to be his word to the people of the world. I don't think Paul's teachings were in anyway heretical.
As for Antichrist, scripture tells us that there are two types of antichrist.
There is the type that can be anyone, they are simple anti christ, or against christ.
The second type is The Antichrist. The man of lawlessness who will rule the world during the seven years of the tribulation. He is the Satanic answer to Jesus. He will be indwelt by the spirit of Satan, and perform miracles by his power.
John the Baptist said:mutzrein said:
****
John here: Hi! Too simple!! :wink: There is much more. Not about anti/Christ per/say, but about who Christ was before He Became the Son of God. This too can be material of the anti/Christ!?
That requires All Scripture to understand the 'DOCTRINE OF CHRIST'! The 2 Timothy 3:16's Doctrine, & Matthew 4:4 Complete Required DIET! Huh?
So, tell us who the Inspired Word of God 'IS', that gave us the Acts 7:38 TRUTH? OH', and for us not to be in ignorance: , Paul gave me more in 1 Cor. 10:1-3 (*in the K.J.) Also check Nehemiah 9:6-15. Whom is this.. man?? Son of God?? Or was it God before He ... '[I WILL DECLARE THE DECREE]; THE LORD SAID UNTO ME, THOU ART MY SON; [THIS DAY] HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE."???
JTB - I don't know what you are on about. I believe scripture - ALL of it - or at least all that I have read in the one with 66 books.
The problem is man has twisted scripture to fit his own premise. And you have been sucked in by it. Now I'm not blaming you nor do I deny that you are TOTALLY without understanding. But when man adopts a doctrine and then misrepresents scripture to fit his doctrine (whether purposely or unwittingly) it still does not make it (the doctrine) right.
If you would like us to talk about who Jesus is, I'm happy to. I've done it before and I will do it again for your benefit.
G
Georges
Guest
sigh1 said:
Some comments in Red....Paul is not The antichrist....however, if he does preach that Christ came in the "LIKENESS" of man, then.....
I
Imagican
Guest
I feel compelled to agree with Mutz here John. It does seem that you have understanding but you have allowed it to be much tainted by the 'man-made' stuff introduced by those that you OPENLY admit 'have NO clue' as to the 'truth'.
John, my friend, do yourself a favor and do a brief study of the 'history' of this 'Jesus is God' theology. You seem to be one with enough intellegence to understand the 'truth' when confronted with it. Do you have the the ability to ACCEPT the truth as well? For there ARE many that will 'hold tight' to what they consider 'dear' REGARDLESS of whether it be truth or detrimental SIMPLY for the sake of 'themselves'.
I have seen it over and over, people making up 'excuses' to justify holding on to 'false doctrine' REGARDLESS of The Spirit tugging at their hearts to accept the truth and the ONLY possible reasons for this are; demon possetion, or simple 'self love'. The belief that THEY are more important than ANYTHING else.
John, WHO do you think added the capital letters to the first few verses of John? Do you even care? What if, I mean really, what if you take away the capital w for a second. Do that would you? Simply read the verses of John that you 'believe' prove SO much WITHOUT the capital w. Literally, read it. Then come back and tell me what it says WITHOUT the capital w.
MEC
John, my friend, do yourself a favor and do a brief study of the 'history' of this 'Jesus is God' theology. You seem to be one with enough intellegence to understand the 'truth' when confronted with it. Do you have the the ability to ACCEPT the truth as well? For there ARE many that will 'hold tight' to what they consider 'dear' REGARDLESS of whether it be truth or detrimental SIMPLY for the sake of 'themselves'.
I have seen it over and over, people making up 'excuses' to justify holding on to 'false doctrine' REGARDLESS of The Spirit tugging at their hearts to accept the truth and the ONLY possible reasons for this are; demon possetion, or simple 'self love'. The belief that THEY are more important than ANYTHING else.
John, WHO do you think added the capital letters to the first few verses of John? Do you even care? What if, I mean really, what if you take away the capital w for a second. Do that would you? Simply read the verses of John that you 'believe' prove SO much WITHOUT the capital w. Literally, read it. Then come back and tell me what it says WITHOUT the capital w.
MEC
J
John the Baptist
Guest
OK friend, you take away the periods & numbers that uninspired men added, and see if it comes up any less compelling! :wink: --John
________
-------Christ is God of the Godhead!------- (added emphasis & in part.. you can look it up for complete Wordings!)
Exodus 20:1-7 in part: "And God Spake all these Words saying, ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, ... for I the Lord God am a jealous God, ... Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; ... " (compare Colossians 1:14-23!!)
Deut. 5:22 "These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, and with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in **two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." (compare Matt. 22:35-40!!)
Verse 24 "Behold, the Lord our God hath showed us His glory... we have seen this day that God doth talk with man..."
Verse 26 "For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of fire, as we have, and lived?."
One needs to REMEMBER the ten Commandments that are here recorded in Stone by God Himself! [Two Tables of Stone]! Yes, the Great testing 7th day Sabbath one that started out with remember!! (compare 2 Cor. 3:3 & Heb. 10:16 & John 3:3)
OK: Back to God Himself. Nehemiah 9:6 & 12-14 in part.
"Thou, even Thou, art Lord alone; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and Thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth Thee." (see Psalms 33:9 What a God Christ is!!)
Did you get that? This is God who is Worshiped by all the heavens, including the other worlds of the Hebrews that is twice mentioned!
Verse 12-15 "Moreover Thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
verse 13 "Thou camest down also with them from heaven, and gaveth them right judgements, and true laws, good statues and Commandments:
verse 14 "And maddest known unto them Thy Holy Sabbath, and Commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant: (did you catch that?? Gods Holy Sabbath!---- And *precepts, *statues, and *laws, by the hand of Moses!! See Deut. 31)
Verse 15 "And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger ..." (Compare Matt. 4:4! and who is the Word? Read John 1:1-3 it with these verses!)
Paul under Inspiration in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 tell us who this God is!
"MOREOVER, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
Verse 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Verse 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (again read Matt. 4:4!)
Verse 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was Christ." (Read all the above again!! He is also God of the Godhead!)
In Acts 7:38 Steven was being executed and was filled with the Holy Ghost (verse 55) and this was his inspired wordings.. "This is He that was in the Church in the wilderness ... and with our fathers: Who received the lively oracles to give unto us: ..." (again & again Christ God!)
In conclusion: Christ is God! Yet, it is not the one mistakenly believing error on this subject that is the one in danger, it is the person or persons that teach that Christ is not the God of the Godhead that are the anti/Christ ones! That is not the Doctrine of the Godhead! **2 John 7-11 They would do best to keep their head in the hole of 1 Cor. 10:1's Ignorance! See 2 Peter 2:21!
---John
________
-------Christ is God of the Godhead!------- (added emphasis & in part.. you can look it up for complete Wordings!)
Exodus 20:1-7 in part: "And God Spake all these Words saying, ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, ... for I the Lord God am a jealous God, ... Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; ... " (compare Colossians 1:14-23!!)
Deut. 5:22 "These words the Lord spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness, and with a great voice: and He added no more. And He wrote them in **two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me." (compare Matt. 22:35-40!!)
Verse 24 "Behold, the Lord our God hath showed us His glory... we have seen this day that God doth talk with man..."
Verse 26 "For who is there of all flesh, that hath heard the voice of the living God speaking out of the midst of fire, as we have, and lived?."
One needs to REMEMBER the ten Commandments that are here recorded in Stone by God Himself! [Two Tables of Stone]! Yes, the Great testing 7th day Sabbath one that started out with remember!! (compare 2 Cor. 3:3 & Heb. 10:16 & John 3:3)
OK: Back to God Himself. Nehemiah 9:6 & 12-14 in part.
"Thou, even Thou, art Lord alone; Thou hast made heaven, the heaven of heavens, with all their host, the earth, and all things that are therein, the seas, and all that is therein, and Thou preservest them all; and the host of heaven worshipeth Thee." (see Psalms 33:9 What a God Christ is!!)
Did you get that? This is God who is Worshiped by all the heavens, including the other worlds of the Hebrews that is twice mentioned!
Verse 12-15 "Moreover Thou leddest them in the day by a cloudy pillar; and in the night by a pillar of fire, to give them light in the way wherein they should go.
verse 13 "Thou camest down also with them from heaven, and gaveth them right judgements, and true laws, good statues and Commandments:
verse 14 "And maddest known unto them Thy Holy Sabbath, and Commandedst them precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant: (did you catch that?? Gods Holy Sabbath!---- And *precepts, *statues, and *laws, by the hand of Moses!! See Deut. 31)
Verse 15 "And gavest them bread from heaven for their hunger ..." (Compare Matt. 4:4! and who is the Word? Read John 1:1-3 it with these verses!)
Paul under Inspiration in 1 Corinthians 10:1-4 tell us who this God is!
"MOREOVER, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
Verse 2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
Verse 3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat; (again read Matt. 4:4!)
Verse 4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of the spiritual Rock that followed them; and that Rock was Christ." (Read all the above again!! He is also God of the Godhead!)
In Acts 7:38 Steven was being executed and was filled with the Holy Ghost (verse 55) and this was his inspired wordings.. "This is He that was in the Church in the wilderness ... and with our fathers: Who received the lively oracles to give unto us: ..." (again & again Christ God!)
In conclusion: Christ is God! Yet, it is not the one mistakenly believing error on this subject that is the one in danger, it is the person or persons that teach that Christ is not the God of the Godhead that are the anti/Christ ones! That is not the Doctrine of the Godhead! **2 John 7-11 They would do best to keep their head in the hole of 1 Cor. 10:1's Ignorance! See 2 Peter 2:21!
---John
I
Imagican
Guest
But John, we have the information of 'what' anti-Christ IS. And the definition does not contain an explanation stating that anti-Christ IS that which denies that Christ IS God. Anti-Christ is that which denies that Christ IS, period, or that which openly admits that Christ IS and is 'against' Christ.
Christ is CERTAINLY a 'part' of the Godhead FULLY. Now, WHAT EXACTLY IS the Godhead? Is the Godhead God Himself or is it 'something' distinctly different than God Himself.
I know that I am not being as clear here as possible so let's try a different approach. Harry is a member of a 'group'. The group is called 'The Lions'. IS Harry 'The Lions'? Or is Harry simply ONE part of 'The Lions'? And COULD The Lions exist WITHOUT Harry? Harry represents the Lions when approaching the public. He has been given authority to speak for The Lions, He has been briefed in order to answers questions for The Lions, heck, he has even been given a suit so that he dresses like a Lion. But IS HE The Lions?
The idea of a 'triune' God CAME from somewhere. It is NOT in The Word. That one is able to 'see' a 'triune' nature is without debate. The question is NOT what one is able to 'create' from the Word, but WHAT the Word actually represents. To many, many different things. That becomes OBVIOUS when we look out at all the 'different' denominations. But, there can NOT be SO MANY different 'truths' if there is ONLY ONE TRUTH. Some one may have it RIGHT, but then, that would make EVERYONE else WRONG. And I am NOT offering that ANYONE has it right, just that it's POSSIBLE.
That there are SO MANY different views right here on these forums shows that we are FAR from an accurate understanding of THE truth. There may very well be ONE among us that has a grasp of the Truth, but WHERE does that leave EVERYONE else. With, at most, a PARTIAL understanding.
Simple acceptance that Christ CAME in the flesh is proof enough that He was NOT fully God. For He WAS flesh. So the MOST that He could claim would be no MORE than 'half-God'. He WAS born of a woman. He IS the Son of God, He IS the Son of man. Isn't this clearly stated in The Word?
So, by the standard that 'trins' use to claim He IS God, they would have to believe that He IS MAN as well. Yet there is NO indication that God IS man. God CREATED man in HIS image, but does that make God man? See what I mean? They offer that Jesus IS the God/man. Huh? Even THIS would make Him ONLY half God, yet they 'claim' His diety to be COMPLETE.
Now, from THIS perspective, if WE TOO become the sons of God, does that make US God as well?
MEC
Christ is CERTAINLY a 'part' of the Godhead FULLY. Now, WHAT EXACTLY IS the Godhead? Is the Godhead God Himself or is it 'something' distinctly different than God Himself.
I know that I am not being as clear here as possible so let's try a different approach. Harry is a member of a 'group'. The group is called 'The Lions'. IS Harry 'The Lions'? Or is Harry simply ONE part of 'The Lions'? And COULD The Lions exist WITHOUT Harry? Harry represents the Lions when approaching the public. He has been given authority to speak for The Lions, He has been briefed in order to answers questions for The Lions, heck, he has even been given a suit so that he dresses like a Lion. But IS HE The Lions?
The idea of a 'triune' God CAME from somewhere. It is NOT in The Word. That one is able to 'see' a 'triune' nature is without debate. The question is NOT what one is able to 'create' from the Word, but WHAT the Word actually represents. To many, many different things. That becomes OBVIOUS when we look out at all the 'different' denominations. But, there can NOT be SO MANY different 'truths' if there is ONLY ONE TRUTH. Some one may have it RIGHT, but then, that would make EVERYONE else WRONG. And I am NOT offering that ANYONE has it right, just that it's POSSIBLE.
That there are SO MANY different views right here on these forums shows that we are FAR from an accurate understanding of THE truth. There may very well be ONE among us that has a grasp of the Truth, but WHERE does that leave EVERYONE else. With, at most, a PARTIAL understanding.
Simple acceptance that Christ CAME in the flesh is proof enough that He was NOT fully God. For He WAS flesh. So the MOST that He could claim would be no MORE than 'half-God'. He WAS born of a woman. He IS the Son of God, He IS the Son of man. Isn't this clearly stated in The Word?
So, by the standard that 'trins' use to claim He IS God, they would have to believe that He IS MAN as well. Yet there is NO indication that God IS man. God CREATED man in HIS image, but does that make God man? See what I mean? They offer that Jesus IS the God/man. Huh? Even THIS would make Him ONLY half God, yet they 'claim' His diety to be COMPLETE.
Now, from THIS perspective, if WE TOO become the sons of God, does that make US God as well?
MEC
J
John the Baptist
Guest
I never see the Word in your reply? But if you do read God's Word, Start & stay with ETERNAL GOSPEL & ETERNAL COVENANT, Revelation 14:6 & Hebrews 13:20 until you know what that means. Perhaps you might see that it is not even possible to have any of the Godhead missing in [ETERNITY].
Even the [PLAN] of Salvation is Eternal, but was [ONLY BROUGHT FORTH] when it was Eternally seen to be needed!
---John
Even the [PLAN] of Salvation is Eternal, but was [ONLY BROUGHT FORTH] when it was Eternally seen to be needed!
---John
F
Fulton Sheen's Warrior
Guest
+JMJ+
If God exsists in eternity...wouldn't His Word would have to be eternal?
God's Word has to be constant and eternal....not temporal.
When I speak, my words are present and then they are not. This is because I am subject to time. God is not. When God speaks (in eternity) it must be eternal.
God's Word must be an Eternal Word begotten from all eternity.
If God exsists in eternity...wouldn't His Word would have to be eternal?
God's Word has to be constant and eternal....not temporal.
When I speak, my words are present and then they are not. This is because I am subject to time. God is not. When God speaks (in eternity) it must be eternal.
God's Word must be an Eternal Word begotten from all eternity.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Mec,
I do not see Christ as the Son of God until He was stated by the Godhead to be so!
Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. "[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE]." Surely that is clear? But what day in the future is it stated that Christ was to be, begotten??
In Heb. 1:2 we see that .. "Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)
and in verse 5?? We see Psalms 2:7 is now past/tense! "For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?]"
So the GodHead were, & always will be the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. It was the PLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet never was 'eternity' with out the known plan. OK??
---John
I do not see Christ as the Son of God until He was stated by the Godhead to be so!
Notice in Psalms 2:7 future tense.. "[I will make the decree]: the [Lord hath said unto *me], THOU ART *MY SON; [THIS *DAY HAVE I *BEGOTTEN THEE]." Surely that is clear? But what day in the future is it stated that Christ was to be, begotten??
In Heb. 1:2 we see that .. "Hath in the last days spoken unto us by His Son, (But notice this!) ... by whom also He [MADE THE WORLDS]: (plural)
and in verse 5?? We see Psalms 2:7 is now past/tense! "For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, [THIS DAY HAVE I BEGOTTEN THEE?]"
So the GodHead were, & always will be the GODHEAD! God the Son as we know Him became God the Son at conception by the Holy Ghost! See Psalms 139:15-16. It was the PLAN that had its beginning on 'earth', yet never was 'eternity' with out the known plan. OK??
---John
I
Imagican
Guest
John,
Are you SURE about what you state; that the Godhead 'became' the Godhead as we know it upon the CONCEPTION of Mary? Was Christ NOT the Son previous to this? Has not Christ ALWAYS been the Son of God. I am not speaking of Jesus NOW, but CHRIST, The Son of God.
MEC
Are you SURE about what you state; that the Godhead 'became' the Godhead as we know it upon the CONCEPTION of Mary? Was Christ NOT the Son previous to this? Has not Christ ALWAYS been the Son of God. I am not speaking of Jesus NOW, but CHRIST, The Son of God.
MEC
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Imagican said:
**
The thing to see is, I said.. 'as we know it'. Referring to most of today. Not me, right you are! :wink:
In Eternity we are told that the Son was the Eternal Plan. There were God, Christ God & Holy Spirit God. GODHEAD! OK? We see God & Christ God creating us with their Image. God the Holy Spirit we are told by His Inspiration, IS SPIRIT or HOLY GHOST.
The Son/Christ was the Everlasting Gospel! The Center/piece of the Universal PLAN! (Ark/Covenant/MERCY SEAT!)
The Son is as Romans 4:17's last part of Paul's pen states. Most get confused on this that God does!
Let me print it from the K.J.. ".., even God, ..., [and CALLETH THOSE THINGS WHICH BE NOT AS THOUGH THEY WERE]." (the context need not be Abraham)
Case in point: (and here is where much confusion comes forth on all doctrine!
) In Proverbs 8:30-31 we see where Christ is the Son of God in Prophecy. "Rejoicing in the habitable part of the earth; [and my delight were with the sons of men.]"
And the skeptics use verse Proverbs 8:22-23
to make it sound as Christ was brought forth at some time past.
While only the Plan was the object considered. And even then it was seen in the future Prophecy of the Godheads foreknowledge time/line & even before Christ was born.--John
jgredline
Member
For those following this thread there is another simillar thread like this going on here.
Is Jesus God?
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15
Is Jesus God?
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... c&start=15
S
sigh1
Guest
Georges said:
Paul preaching Jesus as coming in the LIKENESS of man, holds no problem for me. He was fully human but also fully divine. He was LIKE a man but at the same time much more then a man.
jgredline
Member
Not that I am total agreement with it, but it might add some spice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist
Here is another good link. http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_3.html
This one describes many on this thread. :-D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist
Here is another good link. http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_3.html
This one describes many on this thread. :-D