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[__ Science __ ] antioxidants, antioxidant pills

Christ_empowered

Christ_empowered

Member
for those of you who are well-versed in Science...

what's the deal with antioxidants? I take a boat load of common ones (c, natural form e, zinc, selenium, etc.) in an effort to reduce toxicity from the 2 psych drugs I'm prescribed for a 'severe mental illness' (read: this involves a newer, 'atypical' antipsychotic). All I could find on ways to reduce the risk of serious long term adverse effects from these drugs came from the 'alternative' realm, and the idea seems to be that loading up on antioxidants reduces overall adverse effects and keeps the facial tics and such away (usually). and yet...

every.single.time i read the 'health' section of a mainstream news outlet, there's more bad news about supplements, especially antioxidants. it used to be that the info would read something like "some think antioxidant supplements might improve health," etc., now its warnings, as in "too much (xyz) could cause cancer" and "vitamins kill you," etc. meanwhile...

some clinics are offering injections and infusions of vitamin c and other natural substances to boost treatment for people undergoing chemotherapy. on a more vain note, women (and men) all over are putting expen$ive vitamin C products on their faces, and there's some data to back that up (funded by some of the bigger companies making the products, as one might expect).

So, I'm understandably...confused. When I'm on target with remembering to dose up and such, I consume about 16-20 grams of vitamin C per day from supplements. Vitamin C is thankfully inexpensive, although I could probably save money if I switched over to powdered versions. I feel OK (LOL). I mean, honestly...my allergies are better, I feel calmer, and I don't have tics or any major adverse effects from the tranq. but...

what gives with the bad press? thanks in advance. :)
 
Anti oxidants have been shown to protect cells in laboratory experiments. However, taking pills filled with anti oxidants in excess of the RDA have not generally been proven to help.

US Dept of Health and Human Services said:
Rigorous scientific studies involving more than 100,000 people combined have tested whether antioxidant supplements can help prevent chronic diseases, such as cardiovascular diseases, cancer, and cataracts. In most instances, antioxidants did not reduce the risks of developing these diseases.
Click to expand...

Lots of claims, but so far not a lot of proof that mega dose supplement pills can help.

US Dept of Health and Human Services said:
However, high-dose supplements of antioxidants may be linked to health risks in some cases.
Click to expand...

Moderate dose supplement pills are reasonably safe, but taking mega doses can sometimes be counter productive. Make sure to get the RDA of all vitamins and minerals. Having enough vitamin D and such is very important. Food tends to have the most natural form of these vitamins. Be very careful about mega doses from pills though. Some supplements are dangerous in mega doses. Something reasonably close to the RDA tends to give the benefits without the risks that mega doses can pose.

Moderation in everything is usually best. Just because a little bit is good does not necessarily meant that a lot is better. A lot can sometimes be dangerous.
 
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ok. that was easy enough, LOL. so...Orthomolecular, for instance...the massive vitamin dosing I've been doing for the better part of 10 years...

probably not the best idea?
 
There is no scientific proof that mega doses can help. There is no proof that mega doses are even safe.

There is a lot of proof that the RDA is absolutely essential to health. People who don't have enough vitamin D and such can get really messed up. Make sure you get the RDA of all vitamins and minerals. Every single day, since many of them can't be stored in the body very well.

Mega doses are just an unproven experiment that you are running on yourself. The experiment might be dangerous. There are no rigorous clinical trials proving that mega doses will help you. Its just an experiment that you are running on yourself to find out what happens. No mere mortal can currently figure out what effect it will have.
 
One thing to be careful of, you should never megadose the 4 fat-soluble vitamins (A, D, E, & K). These accumulate in fatty tissues and can build to toxic levels with no way for the body to eliminate. All the other vitamins are water-soluble, so are easily flushed out by the urinary system.

Actually, that last point is a significant knock against mega-dosing. The body flushes out any excess it doesn't need. So all that expensive dosing ends up going literally down the toilet.
 
Foods. 2017 Oct; 6(10): 92.
Published online 2017 Oct 22. doi: 10.3390/foods6100092
PMCID: PMC5664031
PMID: 29065496
Curcumin: A Review of Its’ Effects on Human Health
Susan J. Hewlings1,2,* and Douglas S. Kalman
Abstract
Turmeric, a spice that has long been recognized for its medicinal properties, has received interest from both the medical/scientific world and from culinary enthusiasts, as it is the major source of the polyphenol curcumin. It aids in the management of oxidative and inflammatory conditions, metabolic syndrome, arthritis, anxiety, and hyperlipidemia. It may also help in the management of exercise-induced inflammation and muscle soreness, thus enhancing recovery and performance in active people. In addition, a relatively low dose of the complex can provide health benefits for people that do not have diagnosed health conditions. Most of these benefits can be attributed to its antioxidant and anti-inflammatory effects. Ingesting curcumin by itself does not lead to the associated health benefits due to its poor bioavailability, which appears to be primarily due to poor absorption, rapid metabolism, and rapid elimination. There are several components that can increase bioavailability. For example, piperine is the major active component of black pepper and, when combined in a complex with curcumin, has been shown to increase bioavailability by 2000%. Curcumin combined with enhancing agents provides multiple health benefits. The purpose of this review is to provide a brief overview of the plethora of research regarding the health benefits of curcumin.
 
I see a lot of research supporting this one. Antioxidants are good for a lot of things. Problem is, unregulated meds are potentially dangerous. I asked my doctor first before doing this, just to be sure. I think that's essential; if you're taking suppliments, you should always inform your physician in detail about it.
 
thanks. my nurse practitioner at the clinic knows i take antioxidants. she seems...tolerant. LOL. the senior psych at the clinic uses vitamin E in high doses to -treat- tardive dyskinesia, but I don't think he routinely uses it as prevention.

and...thanks for the information. i'll have to do a drugs-interaction checker and see if its kosher with my Rx treatments.
 
yeah, that's why I'm wondering about all these anti-antioxidant, anti-supplement stories in the media. of course...im -not- a statistician, i have -0- background in science...I cannot exactly go back and review the studies, meta-analyses, etc. and decide for myself. sigh.

what's lame in my situation is that once one develops TD...its usually permanent. fun fact: the antipsychotics--old and new, all of them--can cause it, and they also suppress them, for a time...so, by the time someone on ongoing treatment notices the tics and such, its often permanent, even if the antipsychotic is tapered and stopped. and so...

since my "affliction" seems to require an antipsychotic, at least I can haggle to get one I can tolerate that -might- have a lower rate of TD. -might- . and then the antioxidants as prevention, because...

the FDA recently approved some pills to suppress TD, but its crazy $$$...as in, treatment runs into 10s of thousands per year, and brings its own set of adverse effects. what's that about? blah.
 
NIH said:
Ten studies were included. The overall results for 'clinically relevant improvement' found no benefit of vitamin E against placebo...
Click to expand...

Meta-study on vitamin E and TD.

Here is another one.

Here is a doctor discussing the results.

Make sure that you get the RDA of vitamin E. Be careful of mega-doses though. Its a blood thinner in mega doses, and mega doses are associated with side effects like hemorrhagic stroke.

There are many anti oxidants without any RDA recommendation. I would think moderation would be the most sensible approach. Anti oxidants from food have been proven to protect people. There is no proof that mega doses from pills will help, and may be dangerous.
 
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thanks. it looks like other branches of 'alternative medicine' recommend...you guessed it...other antioxidants for this sort of thing. Gingko biloba (spelling?) seems to have a bit of data behind it, and I think its just -1- pill per day, which...would be easy enough.

i don't have TD that I know of, at this point. I take Abilify which....for a while there, doctors would say, with a straight face, "I've never seen TD from Abilify," but now it just seems that its basically...yet another antipsychotic, TD happens, but it might be at a lower rate than with many other options. Maybe...

but I am thankful that at least my "problems" respond to 2 psych drugs per day, no major hassles, no major drama, etc. Its sad...antipsychotics are best reserved for Schizophrenia and occasional cases of Bipolar I, but something like 30% of people with Schizophrenia are "treatment-resistant" from the get go...whatever causes their problems, the antipsychotics just don't help, even at high doses. blah. There's clozapine, but...wow. I hear that stuff is rough.

rambling. thanks again. I also saw something interesting on a high nightly dose of melatonin to treat/suppress established TD. I don't have TD, but I do have some difficulty staying asleep...melatonin to the rescue? it seems relatively inexpensive, too.
 
Christ_empowered said:
Gingko biloba (spelling?) seems to have a bit of data behind it, and I think its just -1- pill per day, which...would be easy enough.
Click to expand...

Its my understanding that some European doctors prescribe ginkgo biloba to prevent senility. It enhances blood flow to the brain. They prescribe one or two pills though, not megadoses. The stuff is dangerous in megadoses, as it is a blood thinner. It may be necessary for doctors to monitor your blood if they are going to treat you with such things. Its usually best to do such things with the supervision of a MD who specializes in such things. Especially if you are taking prescription meds. It can present risks, as well as rewards.

Canadian doctors tend to like to make sure their patients get enough vitamin D. A blood test can tell you whether you are getting the proper amount. Vitamin D is very protective, in the proper amount. Very dangerous in mega doses.

Its all a matter of properly titrating the dose for a particular individual, and monitoring the effects over time. Testing is helpful here.
 
I'm no scientist or doctor, nor do I [play one on TV or internet forums...but

I was very big into herbs, vitamins and healthy diet a few years back and did a whole lot of homework about these things, antioxidants, all that stuff. What I suggest for you to do, is to get your antioxidants from fresh food instead of supplements.

Blueberries are very high in antioxidents, so are Kidney beans!

Look for a used book on ebay....it is the bible for this sort of thing (figuratively).
The book is called "Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by James Balch/Phyllis Balch

This has sections on, vitamins and what good they are for which parts of your body, and what foods they are in. It has a section on Herbs and what they are good for and so forth. And the main part of the book is illnesses and diseases. Say you have a cold. You look up colds...and it will tell you, what you should eat to get rid of it, what not to eat which may aggravate it and all sorts of stuff like that.

The idea being, you can't overdose on food or herbs. This book is awesome. I have the 2nd edition, and dang I paid 30 bucks for it then, and here it is for 2 dollars!

www.textbookrush.com

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but it has all explanations for all vitamins and how much you need of the different ones. I highly recommend this book.
 
Antioxidants first gained exposure as a way to combat destructive species known as "free radicals". These appear in the bloodstream and destroy the covalent bonds of biomolecules. This process is associated with cancer, so it was thought that diets high in AOs would be a nice way to combat it.

Recently however, it was found that antioxidants also protect cancer tissue from these same free radicals. So now it's anyone's guess.

Antioxidants are also known to combat the toxic effects of some drugs. The question is the size of the doses. As you know, megadosing is very controversial.

After all, Linus Pauling, who championed megadoses of vitamin C, did die of cancer himself.
 
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