Apostasy

[Aardverk]

Why must we change the truth to help people feel good about truth they can't bring themselves to accept? How does that help people have faith--faith that saves? Tell me.

Jethro, you should never change the truth. What is the truth?

Given that we all believe different things, on matters of faith, we can not KNOW what is truth, we can only believe what is truth. If you are gently and clearly explaining to someone that it is your belief that they have an evil heart, that allows them to ignore you personally; that may alienate them from you alone. If you purport with confidence to speak for the whole Christian community, you will alienate them from Christianity.

I beg you to moderate your confidence and act with humility, not arrogant certainty. Just remember that there are hundreds of different denominations for very good reasons. Your interpretation of scripture may not be right. We are not perfect.

As for your allegations that I am trying to turn people away from Christianity or from the Bible, far from it Jethro. I would never be arrogant enough to tell a single person that my interpretation is correct and their's is wrong. All I have ever done is explain, when the subject naturally crops up, what gives ME doubts. I do this in the hope that some wise person will make a comment that is helpful to me. I am here on this forum for my own benefit, to learn from everything I read. I see nothing wrong with that. Do you?

If, along the way, I can help some recognize the errors in their behavior, that is a benefit for them. The majority of people unfortunately have fixed ideas and are beyond help.

What is sad about it?

It is sad because you are alienating people. Most Christians feel it their duty to encourage people to Christ, not drive them away with intemperance.

 

[Aardverk]

Summation of your argument is Man's Commandment>God's Commandment.
Proverbs 30:5-6 says, "“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar."

No, 'CalledToServe', I have certainly not said that. If you read with even moderate care you will see that I have clearly agreed that 'The Sabbath' should strictly be Saturday. All my life I have meekly gone along with the vast majority of Christians and treated Sunday as the holy day, the day of rest. 'The Sabbath' simply means 'the day of rest' and I really do not think God is going to be particularly annoyed with the billions of Christians who have observed Sunday as their day of rest since 321AD. Most have done it in total ignorance.

 

[CalledToServe]

No, 'CalledToServe', I have certainly not said that. If you read with even moderate care you will see that I have clearly agreed that 'The Sabbath' should strictly be Saturday. All my life I have meekly gone along with the vast majority of Christians and treated Sunday as the holy day, the day of rest. 'The Sabbath' simply means 'the day of rest' and I really do not think God is going to be particularly annoyed with the billions of Christians who have observed Sunday as their day of rest since 321AD. Most have done it in total ignorance.

Try not to be disrespectful of me. You do not know me other than what I've posted in my testimony. By putting my name in quotes you show doubts that the Lord has actually called me to serve Him. All Christians are called to serve the Lord in whatever capacity that He deems fit.

Except that God commanded that the Sabbath is between Friday and Saturday evenings. By not adhering to God's commandment and following man's commandment to worship on Sunday is altering the Word of God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Jethro, you should never change the truth. What is the truth?

Don't misunderstand. You are free to create your own truth. What I'm challenging you on is why you change what the Bible says in plain words. Why not just say, 'thanks, but no thanks' and move on? Why is it necessary to reject it and then insist it doesn't say what it's plain words really do say? That is my question. Help us understand what's going on in the mind of the apostate.

Given that we all believe different things, on matters of faith, we can not KNOW what is truth, we can only believe what is truth. If you are gently and clearly explaining to someone that it is your belief that they have an evil heart, that allows them to ignore you personally; that may alienate them from you alone. If you purport with confidence to speak for the whole Christian community, you will alienate them from Christianity.

Like I say, you are free to have your own truth. But why insist that the plain words of someone else's truth written down for them really doesn't say what those plain words say?

I beg you to moderate your confidence and act with humility, not arrogant certainty.

Why do I have to do that with plainly written words? Again, the argument is why should you change my truth when my truth (the truth we've been talking about) is not up for debate as to what it's plain words say?

Just remember that there are hundreds of different denominations for very good reasons. Your interpretation of scripture may not be right. We are not perfect.

Confession of sin guilt, and forgiveness of that sin guilt through the work of Jesus Christ. That is what the Christian religion is founded on. That is not where the deviation is. How can you just decide for us that is not what the scriptures teach? Read closely. I'm not challenging your right to accept that or not. I'm challenging your insistence that the plain words of the Christian gospel don't mean or say what those plain words are saying.

As for your allegations that I am trying to turn people away from Christianity or from the Bible, far from it Jethro. I would never be arrogant enough to tell a single person that my interpretation is correct and their's is wrong. All I have ever done is explain, when the subject naturally crops up, what gives ME doubts. I do this in the hope that some wise person will make a comment that is helpful to me. I am here on this forum for my own benefit, to learn from everything I read. I see nothing wrong with that. Do you?

What is wrong is when we place the plain words of scripture in front of you, and you say those plain words do not say what really do so plainly say. That is wrong. Your 'innocent' questioning of the scriptures reminds me of how satan sowed the seeds of unbelief and disobedience into Eve's life using that technique:

"He (the serpent) said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?" (Genesis 3:1 NIV)

Are you guilty of this same kind of crafty intent to turn people away from the plain words of God?

If, along the way, I can help some recognize the errors in their behavior, that is a benefit for them. The majority of people unfortunately have fixed ideas and are beyond help.

Ignoring or changing plain words of scripture is not how you do that. I'm trying to show how unfair and deceitful your method is.

It is sad because you are alienating people. Most Christians feel it their duty to encourage people to Christ, not drive them away with intemperance.

Is it really that hard for you to understand the same words from the Bible that repulse you draw other people to God? Why do I have to change the plain words of the Bible for the sake of those who are repulsed by those words of the Bible?

 

[Aardverk]

Try not to be disrespectful of me. You do not know me other than what I've posted in my testimony. By putting my name in quotes you show doubts that the Lord has actually called me to serve Him. All Christians are called to serve the Lord in whatever capacity that He deems fit.

Except that God commanded that the Sabbath is between Friday and Saturday evenings. By not adhering to God's commandment and following man's commandment to worship on Sunday is altering the Word of God.

I really meant no disrespect by writing 'CalledToServe', it was simply a way of clarifying that I did not mean Called to serve. I don't really know why you found it disrespectful, there are quite a number of people on this forum who have adopted names in similar fashion and no one has complained before or in any way indicated their displeasure. If I were to call myself, 'TheWiseOne', I would also expect people to put it in quotes to indicate that it was not just part of a sentence.

Giving yourself a declaratory name such as 'FaithfulUntilDeath' (I didn't make that one up) was a practice popular with Puritans hundreds of years ago. I was interested to see that it had been resurrected on this forum. Please accept my apologies for any offence you have taken, certainly none was intended. Many people call me 'Aard', perhaps we can get on first name terms and I can call you 'Called'.

 

[Aardverk]

What I'm challenging you on is why you change what the Bible says in plain words.

I have not done so Jethro, I have quoted God's words as told to us by Matthew. For your convenience I will do so again. It is plainly written in the Bible:
5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. 5:19 Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. Matthew 5:18 YLT

I believe that is perfectly clear. 'Not one iota will pass from the law till heaven and earth pass away'. The earth is still here Jethro ergo the law is still in place. Can it be read any other way?

You go on to say that elsewhere it says that Matthew 5:18 no longer applies. You say that it no longer applies because of what two unknown authors have written. You even maintain that is written plainly yet we know that those words are suspect - I have explained in detain why. Far from being plain, someone else, not me, has pointed out the possible confusion in the meaning of those words. So much for your version of 'plainly written'.

Right on cue, CalledToServe then helps out by quoting, Proverbs 30:5-6 "“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar". To my mind Jethro, you are very clearly saying that the word of God is not flawless and he didn't mean it or wasn't right when he said that the law would not change. Again, so much for 'plainly written'.

Why is it necessary to reject it and then insist it doesn't say what it's plain words really do say?

I am not rejecting 'it' Jethro, I am pointing out that what YOU feel is plainly written is not; far from it. Maybe you have not really thought about what I have said and what is written and who wrote it. Unfortunately I can not give all parts of the Bible equal weighting. Some parts are far more reliable than others, some parts are, in MY opinion, downright unreliable. That is why there are denominational differences Jethro.

How can you just decide for us that is not what the scriptures teach?

I am not trying to decide for anyone Jethro, I am explaining the reasons for some of MY doubts in the hope that some people, obviously not you, will understand that people with wavering faith are not sinners or evil, they are people who have thought things through and come to a perfectly rational but different conclusion. That has been going on for thousands of years in all religions. That is the reason Christianity is fragmented.

Are you guilty of this same kind of crafty intent to turn people away from the plain words of God?

I am guilty of thinking for myself and you are guilty of not thinking for yourself.

I'm trying to show how unfair and deceitful your method is.

I realize exactly what you are trying to do. How can it be deceitful to share my doubts? Is that how you deal with all people who are wavering in their faith? You call them sinners, evil, deceitful etc? Shame on you Jethro.

 

[CalledToServe]

I really meant no disrespect by writing 'CalledToServe', it was simply a way of clarifying that I did not mean Called to serve. I don't really know why you found it disrespectful, there are quite a number of people on this forum who have adopted names in similar fashion and no one has complained before or in any way indicated their displeasure. If I were to call myself, 'TheWiseOne', I would also expect people to put it in quotes to indicate that it was not just part of a sentence.

Giving yourself a declaratory name such as 'FaithfulUntilDeath' (I didn't make that one up) was a practice popular with Puritans hundreds of years ago. I was interested to see that it had been resurrected on this forum. Please accept my apologies for any offence you have taken, certainly none was intended. Many people call me 'Aard', perhaps we can get on first name terms and I can call you 'Called'.

I do apologize for the way I reacted to you putting my name in quotes. In my experience when people do it, they do it maliciously. I believe that we are already friends since we are brothers in Christ. ;)

As for your quote of Matthew 5:18, you are missing one important distinction in your argument that you do not see. When Christ was speaking about the law He was referring to the moral/social portion of Mosaic Law that originated under the Noahide covenant. Not one iota of that set of laws will pass away until the fulfillment of all prophecies. He was not referring to the ceremonial law because He was going to fulfill it with His death, burial, and resurrection. When Jesus and His apostles speak/write about the law, their audience knew the distinction between the two sets of Mosaic law.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have not done so Jethro, I have quoted God's words as told to us by Matthew. For your convenience I will do so again. It is plainly written in the Bible:
5:18 for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass. 5:19 Whoever therefore may loose one of these commands -- the least -- and may teach men so, least he shall be called in the reign of the heavens, but whoever may do and may teach them, he shall be called great in the reign of the heavens. Matthew 5:18 YLT

I believe that is perfectly clear. 'Not one iota will pass from the law till heaven and earth pass away'. The earth is still here Jethro ergo the law is still in place. Can it be read any other way?

Yes, it can be read another way...in it's full and correct way. I showed you what is right there in the passage that you have chosen to ignore. Jesus laid down two conditions that would allow a change in law. Why do you ignore the other condition? There is no excuse for this kind of neglect. You are free to accept or reject what it says. What you are not free to do is twist it and misrepresent it to protect your decision to reject it.

You go on to say that elsewhere it says that Matthew 5:18 no longer applies.

What do you mean no longer applies? There are two conditions there. The conditions were not removed. Who said they no longer apply? Jesus said there are only two things that would allow so much as a jot or tittle to pass from the law. That is the truth. You can take it to the bank.

You say that it no longer applies because of what two unknown authors have written. You even maintain that is written plainly yet we know that those words are suspect - I have explained in detain why. Far from being plain, someone else, not me, has pointed out the possible confusion in the meaning of those words. So much for your version of 'plainly written'.

Why can't you acknowledte the 'till that all may come to pass' condition also in the passage? I'm asking you whether you can bring yourself to acknowledge that it is there. I want to know why you chose to not acknowledge both conditions in the passage and then say we are wrong based on your not acknowledging the other condition. It's not right to do that. Accept it or reject it if you want. You have that right. What you do not have the right to do is tell people we're wrong when you won't acknowledge all of the passage. I think that's a pretty fair and reasonable argument to level against you.

Right on cue, CalledToServe then helps out by quoting, Proverbs 30:5-6 "“Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he will rebuke you and prove you a liar". To my mind Jethro, you are very clearly saying that the word of God is not flawless and he didn't mean it or wasn't right when he said that the law would not change. Again, so much for 'plainly written'.

Again, I cite your incomplete reading of the passage. You are wrong to leave that out and then say we are wrong based on that exclusion.

I am not rejecting 'it' Jethro, I am pointing out that what YOU feel is plainly written is not; far from it. Maybe you have not really thought about what I have said and what is written and who wrote it. Unfortunately I can not give all parts of the Bible equal weighting. Some parts are far more reliable than others, some parts are, in MY opinion, downright unreliable. That is why there are denominational differences Jethro.

Fine. Just start with the passage itself. Is the part you're ignoring unreliable?

I am not trying to decide for anyone Jethro, I am explaining the reasons for some of MY doubts in the hope that some people, obviously not you, will understand that people with wavering faith are not sinners or evil, they are people who have thought things through and come to a perfectly rational but different conclusion.

But to do that requires them to disregard other things that even Jesus himself said in the Bible. You are wrong to hope people will learn from what you say when you contradict plain scripture.

That has been going on for thousands of years in all religions. That is the reason Christianity is fragmented.

The reason it is fragmented is because people like you introduce doubt and unbelief into plain scripture and cause confusion. It's interesting how people like you cause much of the division and then step back and criticize the church for her divisions. And don't tell me you're not creating division. When you say there is a 'Christianity' that has a Jesus that does not call people evil and demand their accountability to sin you are guilty of fragmenting the church...but then you have the audacity to turn right around and point out how fragmented it is.

I am guilty of thinking for myself and you are guilty of not thinking for yourself.

Start reading my posts. Trust me, I think for myself.

I realize exactly what you are trying to do. How can it be deceitful to share my doubts? Is that how you deal with all people who are wavering in their faith? You call them sinners, evil, deceitful etc? Shame on you Jethro.

Shame on YOU for defending your doubts by misrepresenting the plain words of scripture. Matthew 5 is not the only thing you have chosen to misrepresent through your version of 'truth'. From your point of view (let me make that clear) at least I'm honestly wrong. I'm not deceitfully misrepresenting the Bible to defend my beliefs. So right or wrong (remember, I'm speaking from your point of view), at least I have not chosen to use deceitful means to defend my 'truth'.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I believe that we are already friends since we are brothers in Christ. ;)

Uh...read his bio under his screen name.

 

[CalledToServe]

Uh...read his bio under his screen name.

It does not matter if he's a Christian or not. He is still a brother. ;)

 

[Elijah674]

I was reading Phil Johnson's blog and found his observations on apostasy interesting. I think it's normal to question one's faith, or examine one's faith. It does seem to take years to become grounded in the faith, but what is perplexing to me, is that some people who are heavily involved in the church for a number of years will fall away. I chose, out of the ten observations made by Phil, to post two of the more striking reasons of why people fall away from the faith. Because of the nature of being online, and the misconceptions of justification by faith, these two, I think, account for so much heartache and pain when one falls away from the faith, or never really trusted in Christ though they were sincere in the faith they professed.

- Davies

"The actual pattern seems to be that the person will disappear from circles of Christian fellowship for an extended time. If they actually do express their doubts to anyone, it's usually under a false identity on the Internet. Under the cloak of anonymity, they will begin to gravitate toward skeptical forums. And if they do voice their doubts in "Christian" forums, rather than going where they might get help from mature believers, they tend to favor mixed forums featuring totally unmoderated discussion dominated by lay people, novices, and cranks. Moreover, if they voice their doubts in such a context, it will usually be in an argumentative way, and not as someone genuinely seeking answers."

"A disproportionate number of apostates seem to come from the kind of über-rigid fundamentalist backgrounds where what you do seems to be given ultimacy over what you believe. That kind of stress on externals naturally cultivates Pharisaism rather than authentic faith, so we shouldn't be surprised at the high percentage of apostates such a system produces." Phil Johnson

http://teampyro.blogspot.com/

The post is under the date of April 9th, labeled Apostasy.

_________

Perhaps what you need to do is define for yourself what being an APOSTATE is. You seem to be totally anti/Christ in you posting. (and surely that could be even who you are yoked in membership with??)

Old Israel leaves NO Doubt who Christ's VINEYARD/FOLD/CHURCH/HOUSE/SANCTUARY belonged to is Isa. 5. And their 'HOUSE WAS LEFT UNTO THEM DESOLATE' Christ documented in Matt. 23:38. You might find who became the GRAFTED IN VIRGIN FOLD of Acts? But 'i' doubt it!

Yet, if you are sincere? You can read Matt. 10:5-6 on to verse 15 to find out that you are way, way off, in another world!

Even in Jer. 15:15-21 anyone can find that God demands SEPERATION from continued open sin & false doctrines taught for truth. Along with the today Rev. 17:1-5's garbage can full of satans stuff.

Rev. 18:4 has it this 'inspired' way forum..
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, [my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins], and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Many posting folks do not understand that God always found the Apostate church standing still in Apostate place & with the Saved Remnant leaving the open satanic cess/pool daily documented stuff, & starting afresh with Christ inside of the grafted in ones. Matt. 25 is such of Christ's teaching! And verse 10 finds the door CLOSED! See Rev. 2:5 + Rev. 3:16 & verse 9 for who these ones leader is while still claiming it to be Christ.
--Elijah

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It does not matter if he's a Christian or not. He is still a brother. ;)

...but not in Christ.

 

[CalledToServe]

...but not in Christ.

It depends upon your point of view really. Christ ministered to the sinners and He considered them like lost children. ;)

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It depends upon your point of view really. Christ ministered to the sinners and He considered them like lost children. ;)

But until he reconciles to God through Christ he will not be our brother in Christ.

 

[Aardverk]

Jethro, rather as I had the advantage earlier of not feeling bound by the Bible, you now have the advantage that I am bound by the TOS. I have already told you that I can not explain in any more detail or I will be suspended or banned. I will not therefore explain any deeper why I doubt some things because they are fundamentals of Christianity and I am not allowed to criticize them.

The reason it [Christianity] is fragmented is because people like you introduce doubt and unbelief into plain scripture and cause confusion.

I'm afraid that is true. People have been analyzing scripture and interpreting it - always. That does not mean that any of them have any mal-intent, quite the reverse. If it had not happened we would all be Roman Catholics. Would that be a good thing? Should their vast power have remained intact? Should their inquisitions have continually roamed the world? Should people be able to pay for indulgences?

It's interesting how people like you cause much of the division and then step back and criticize the church for her divisions. And don't tell me you're not creating division. When you say there is a 'Christianity' that has a Jesus that does not call people evil and demand their accountability to sin you are guilty of fragmenting the church...but then you have the audacity to turn right around and point out how fragmented it is.

Oh dear Jethro. You are now damning me with a vague generalization. 'People like me' - indeed.

Jethro, if you can show me anywhere that I have, "criticized the church for her divisions", I will do you a personal favor and stop posting on this forum for ever. I will go and not come back. If you can't find anywhere, you obviously owe me an apology:yes

You keep forgetting that this thread is about apostasy. WHY do you think there are apostates? Simply because people think for themselves and realize that what they are being told is not the clear fact that they were taught it was. They are not wicked, sinful, evil, despicable, etc, all words that have been leveled at me, they are wavering, they are doubting, they are uncertain - just like John and just like Thomas but you don't regard them as evil, do you, and you should not automatically regard any apostate as evil. I don't know who you admire from history but Luther was an apostate and Wesley and ...... I know you understand really.

Shame on YOU for defending your doubts

:biglolYes Jethro, I should just have accepted everything you told me. I hang my head in mock shame2

Uh...read his bio under his screen name.

Really! have you actually looked Jethro? There is no record of you looking recently. I invite everyone to look, you will find that there is nothing there and there never has been. You have not the slightest idea what my beliefs are; I have told the moderators and a few interested individuals, in confidence, but I see no reason to publish my beliefs because I have no intention whatsoever of trying to persuade anyone that I am right. I always encourage people to stay within Christianity in much the same way that I always encourage people not to get divorced.

 

[Aardverk]

It does not matter if he's a Christian or not. He is still a brother. ;)

Thank you Called, that is what I call a true Christian attitude An excellent example to your fellow man.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

People have been analyzing scripture and interpreting it - always. That does not mean that any of them have any mal-intent, quite the reverse. If it had not happened we would all be Roman Catholics. Would that be a good thing? Should their vast power have remained intact? Should their inquisitions have continually roamed the world? Should people be able to pay for indulgences?

So the answer to the abuses in the church (by unbelievers masquerading as believers) is to destroy the faith altogether with the kinds of arguments you have been presenting? You have not been speaking on behalf of, or in defense of the Christian faith, so how can you even remotely suggest what you say somehow be a good thing for the church?

Jethro, if you can show me anywhere that I have, "criticized the church for her divisions", I will do you a personal favor and stop posting on this forum for ever. I will go and not come back. If you can't find anywhere, you obviously owe me an apology:yes

Did you forget? I was responding to what you said. It's a criticism linked to your claim that truth is not absolute, and that Christians certainly don't have absolute truth. Spin it anyway you want.

You keep forgetting that this thread is about apostasy. WHY do you think there are apostates? Simply because people think for themselves and realize that what they are being told is not the clear fact that they were taught it was.

No, because, as I told you, apostasy is rooted in the unwillingness to accept the Bible's definition of sin, and God's justice in judging it. Do you think it's a coincidence that you are an apostate and that you reject what the Bible teaches about sin and evil? You've been proving my hypothesis.

They are not wicked, sinful, evil, despicable, etc, all words that have been leveled at me, they are wavering, they are doubting, they are uncertain...

Don't you get it? You dispute the Bible's claims about sin and evil and the nature of man. It is itself evil to do that (that is deny one's own unrighteousness).

That is Christianity. If you don't like that and can't agree with it don't change Christianity, find another religion that tells you that you are already righteous by nature. You are entitled to to do that. What you are NOT entitled to do is suggest that the plain words of the Bible upon which Christianity is based don't really say what they do, or were mistakenly put there. That is where you are wrong.

...just like John and just like Thomas but you don't regard them as evil, do you, and you should not automatically regard any apostate as evil.

They did not reject the commands of God. They righteously followed God.

How you think your rejection of the rules, and calling truth subjective and not absolute, is somehow similar to their righteous obedient lives is beyond my reasonable and rational grasp.

:biglolYes Jethro, I should just have accepted everything you told me. I hang my head in mock shame2

Yes, you should be ashamed. You do not listen when I tell you what the Bible says--things that aren't even up for debate. You don't have to agree with them, that's not the issue. What you should be ashamed of is telling us that what the Christian faith is based on is not really in the Bible, or should not be there.

Really! have you actually looked Jethro? There is no record of you looking recently. I invite everyone to look, you will find that there is nothing there and there never has been.

Yesterday, and today, I see 'Non Christian', and 'Christian: No' under your avatar.

You have not the slightest idea what my beliefs are...

I know you don't believe in the sin nature of man. I know that you think truth is subjective, not absolute. I know that you don't accept the parts of the Bible that don't agree with these two foundational beliefs of yours, and that you twist other parts to defend it. And I know that you claim to not be a Christian. And you categorically reject the basic gospel message, that we Christians do not disagree on, that I shared here.

I'd say that's a little more than just a slight idea of what you believe.

 

[WIP]

A friendly reminder:

2.5: Respect each others' opinions. Address issues, not persons or personalities. Give other members the respect you would want them to give yourself.

 

[Aardverk]

So the answer to the abuses in the church (by unbelievers masquerading as believers) is to destroy the faith altogether with the kinds of arguments you have been presenting?

Come now Jethro, I have clearly said that I encourage people to stay within the Christian faith. I have no interest in destroying anything, I was however explaining the sort of reason why we have apostates. If you do not understand why people waver in their faith, you can not help them. Please try to understand them.

I was responding to what you said. It's a criticism linked to your claim that truth is not absolute...

WHAT???? Although many people do make that claim, I regard it as a philosophical fudge. There can only be one truth Jethro. The problem is knowing what it is. Faith can not help with that because you only need faith if we don't have facts. Conversely, if we have facts, we don't need faith. (Dictionary definition of course).

No, because, as I told you, apostasy is rooted in the unwillingness to accept the Bible's definition of sin...

I recognize that is YOUR opinion. I suggest that you listen to a few intelligent apostates rather than making it up all by yourself. A few may well be evil but most are just lost souls stumbling in the darkness. They need help not insults.

Don't you get it? You dispute the Bible's claims about sin and evil and the nature of man. It is itself evil to do that

Jethro, the thread is about apostasy and I have explained the perfectly rational basis for some people having different beliefs. I have no idea if they are right and neither do you. It is not evil, in my humble opinion, to suffer doubts (John & Thomas did!). I envy people who do not have doubts but I fully understand and have sympathy for the people who do. Unfortunately you clearly do not understand them and I find it quite disturbing that a man who purports to be caring has no apparent interest in listening to a fairly erudite apostate - me.

That is Christianity. If you don't like that and can't agree with it don't change Christianity, find another religion ....

I went from denomination to denomination trying to find a place to settle but eventually realized that I did not fit properly anywhere and people kept telling me I was wrong. Rather than cause confusion to others by keeping on calling myself a Christian, I dropped that title. I thought that was the only honest thing to do.

How you think your rejection of the rules, and calling truth subjective and not absolute, is somehow similar to their righteous obedient lives is beyond my reasonable and rational grasp.

I have never called truth 'subjective or not absolute'. You have completely made that up. I recognize that some things are beyond our grasp but that is hardly my fault Jethro. We all have blind spots, we just happen to have stumbled upon one of yours. I just wish I could remove the log from your eye.

I know that you think truth is subjective, not absolute.

No, you have made that up.

I know that you don't accept the parts of the Bible that don't agree with these two foundational beliefs of yours, and that you twist other parts to defend it. And I know that you claim to not be a Christian. And you categorically reject the basic gospel message, that we Christians do not disagree on, that I shared here.

There is an element of truth in your statement but not as much as you think there is. I have put it here unchallenged to try to make you think again about the apostate. YOU condemn him regardless of his reasoning. A reasoning man may get it right or he may get it wrong BUT it is his reasoning and he will follow it if no one points out where his reasoning is wrong. Just telling him he is evil will encourage him to leave the church. It must therefore be wrong to take that condemning attitude. It is NOT a good thing to drive people with doubts away from God.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I went from denomination to denomination trying to find a place to settle but eventually realized that I did not fit properly anywhere and people kept telling me I was wrong. Rather than cause confusion to others by keeping on calling myself a Christian, I dropped that title. I thought that was the only honest thing to do.


...the apostate. YOU condemn him regardless of his reasoning. A reasoning man may get it right or he may get it wrong BUT it is his reasoning and he will follow it if no one points out where his reasoning is wrong. Just telling him he is evil will encourage him to leave the church. It must therefore be wrong to take that condemning attitude. It is NOT a good thing to drive people with doubts away from God.

You are understanding faith and Christianity according to your rules. That's where your reasoning is wrong. That's why you can't believe and be saved. Christianity as taught in the Bible starts with an acknowledgement of sin guilt. But if one can not believe that they have sin guilt that needs to be atoned for through an unconditional acknowledgement of that guilt they will never come to the moment of justification that every true believer has come to in order to be saved:

11 The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ 13 But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.” (Luke 19:11-14 NIV)

Until a person comes to this point, they can not be saved.


You're questioning the God of the Bible's indictment against mankind about his sin guilt and his responsibility for it. That is why you can not believe in Christ's atoning sacrifice and be saved. That is the helpful advice you need right now, not sugary platitudes about how good you are. Be insulted by that if you want, but that really is what Christianity and the Bible teaches. Don't try to change that plain message. That's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is either acknowledge and accept it, or just move on.

You seem to be hoping for some way to have your doubts answered without doing what you must do to have them removed--acknowledge your sin guilt and the justice of God to judge it righteously. If you do that, then you will be given the faith to believe and trust in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ God has given for the forgiveness and removal of that sin guilt so you can be saved.