Apostate Verses Believer

[netchaplain]

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame” (Heb 6:4-6).

It is essential for us to understand clearly from what these Hebrews might apostatize. Be it observed that there is no mention here of their having been born again, converted, justified, saved, having had the forgiveness of sins or eternal life. Of none who are declared to be in that position is there ever any doubt of their security, or any hint in the Word that after all they might apostatize, or be lost. On the contrary, the thought is carefully guarded against in Scripture. But as to these Hebrews:

They were “enlightened.” And “the true light lighteneth every man which cometh into the world” (Jhn 1:9); but that this is not necessarily saving knowledge is plain. There may be conviction where there is no conversion, as we see daily.

They had “tasted of the heavenly gift,” and “of the good Word of God.” But so had he who received seed upon the stony ground; he “immediately with joy received it.” We see that all too often. The Word is welcomed; it is not understood. Only “he who received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the Word and understandeth it” (Mat 13:23). It is possible thus to have a false peace, and to find joy in the Gospel, which after all has never been apprehended savingly by the soul, and has never brought forth fruit in it at all.

Further, they “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” and had tasted of “the powers of the world to come.” This last expression refers to miraculous power, and the “world to come” is literally the “coming age.” Here, as elsewhere, it refers to the millennium, when the signs and wonders which signaled the early days of Christianity will be resumed. The prophet Joel (Acts 2:28, 29) witnesses of this; and his prophecy the apostle Peter could take up at Pentecost, and apply to what God did by His Spirit at that time. Yet the prophecy itself, however much it might take in Pentecost, goes on to the restoration of Israel in the millennial kingdom.

Miracles could therefore fitly be called “powers of the coming age.” But we have the Lord’s assurance that men might thus be “partakers of the Holy Spirit”—and yet after all He might say to them, “I never knew you” (Mat 7:22, 23). It is clear therefore that in this since they might be “partakers of the Holy Spirit” and yet be lost. The Spirit crying “Abba, Father,” in us is another matter. Those who are thus “sealed by the Holy Spirit” until the day of promise” are “sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph 1:13; 4:30). In this case therefore there is no possibility of being lost.

But these Hebrews here described were in danger of stopping short of Christ, and by going back to the ranks of those who crucified Him, they would have “crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame.” It is open apostasy that is in question, going back to Judaism out of which they had come, and what hope could there for such?

- F W Grant

 

[Seabass]

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame” (Heb 6:4-6).



Be it observed that there is no mention here of their having been born again, converted, justified, saved, having had the forgiveness of sins or eternal life. y the soul, and has never brought forth fruit in it at all.

- F W Grant

What I put in red letters above make it too painfully obvious the Hebrew writer is talking about Christians.
F.W. Grant was willing to ignore the obvious for his religious bias:

1) once enlightened - left the lost state of darkness to the saved state of being in the light, Acts 26:18; Col 1:13; Jn 3:20,21: etc

2) tasted the heavenly gift - the gift here refers to salvation > eternal life Rom 6:23;

3) partakers of the Holy Spirit - Rom 8:9

4) tasted the good word of God and powers of the age to come - receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls, James 1:21

The Hebrew writer then speaks about these Christians "if they fall away" Christian can fall away, those always fallen cannot fall for they are already fallen.

-------

Heb 6:6 "renew them again" KJV
Heb 6:6 "bring such people back to repentance" NLT

How could they be renewed AGAIN if they had never been renewed before? How could they be brought BACK to repentance if they had never were in repentance before? The language implies they had once been renewed and was once in repentance but now are in a state where it's impossible to bring them back again to that renewed, repentant state. So they must have fallen from a renewed, repentant SAVED state.

Of course, the context of the Hebrew epistle has several warnings, admonishments to the Hebrews that had become Christian about their returning back to the law of Moses and become lost: Heb 2:1-3; Heb 3:12-14; Heb 4:1,11; Heb 6:4-6;


"It is essential for us to understand clearly from what these Hebrews might apostatize. Be it observed that there is no mention here of their having been born again, converted, justified, saved, having had the forgiveness of sins or eternal life. Of none who are declared to be in that position is there ever any doubt of their security, or any hint in the Word that after all they might apostatize, or be lost. On the contrary, the thought is carefully guarded against in Scripture.: FW Grant

How could they apostatize if they have never been saved?

"But these Hebrews here described were in danger of stopping short of Christ, and by going back to the ranks of those who crucified Him, they would have “crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame.” It is open apostasy that is in question, going back to Judaism out of which they had come, and what hope could there for such?"

If they stop "short of Christ" then how can they go "back to the ranks of those who crucified Him (Christ)" when they NEVER left those ranks having fallen short of Christ??

FW Grant say they apostatize by "going back to Judaism out of which they had come...." But if they stopped "short of Christ" then they NEVER became Christians so they had come out of Judaism into what? From what will they go back into Judaism from making them apostates???

 

[Brother Mike]

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame” (Heb 6:4-6).

It is essential for us to understand clearly from what these Hebrews might apostatize. Be it observed that there is no mention here of their having been born again, converted, justified, saved, having had the forgiveness of sins or eternal life. Of none who are declared to be in that position is there ever any doubt of their security, or any hint in the Word that after all they might apostatize, or be lost. On the contrary, the thought is carefully guarded against in Scripture. But as to these Hebrews:

They were “enlightened.” And “the true light lighteneth every man which cometh into the world” (Jhn 1:9); but that this is not necessarily saving knowledge is plain. There may be conviction where there is no conversion, as we see daily.

They had “tasted of the heavenly gift,” and “of the good Word of God.” But so had he who received seed upon the stony ground; he “immediately with joy received it.” We see that all too often. The Word is welcomed; it is not understood. Only “he who received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the Word and understandeth it” (Mat 13:23). It is possible thus to have a false peace, and to find joy in the Gospel, which after all has never been apprehended savingly by the soul, and has never brought forth fruit in it at all.

Further, they “were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” and had tasted of “the powers of the world to come.” This last expression refers to miraculous power, and the “world to come” is literally the “coming age.” Here, as elsewhere, it refers to the millennium, when the signs and wonders which signaled the early days of Christianity will be resumed. The prophet Joel (Acts 2:28, 29) witnesses of this; and his prophecy the apostle Peter could take up at Pentecost, and apply to what God did by His Spirit at that time. Yet the prophecy itself, however much it might take in Pentecost, goes on to the restoration of Israel in the millennial kingdom.

Miracles could therefore fitly be called “powers of the coming age.” But we have the Lord’s assurance that men might thus be “partakers of the Holy Spirit”—and yet after all He might say to them, “I never knew you” (Mat 7:22, 23). It is clear therefore that in this since they might be “partakers of the Holy Spirit” and yet be lost. The Spirit crying “Abba, Father,” in us is another matter. Those who are thus “sealed by the Holy Spirit” until the day of promise” are “sealed unto the day of redemption” (Eph 1:13; 4:30). In this case therefore there is no possibility of being lost.

But these Hebrews here described were in danger of stopping short of Christ, and by going back to the ranks of those who crucified Him, they would have “crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put Him to open shame.” It is open apostasy that is in question, going back to Judaism out of which they had come, and what hope could there for such?

- F W Grant

Unfortunately I can't comment on F W Grants words as He is not here to clear up a few things. drop the personal remarks reba

Mike.

 

[netchaplain]

What I put in red letters above make it too painfully obvious the Hebrew writer is talking about Christians.
F.W. Grant was willing to ignore the obvious for his religious bias:

1) once enlightened - left the lost state of darkness to the saved state of being in the light, Acts 26:18; Col 1:13; Jn 3:20,21: etc

Hi Seabass - Appreciate your input and let us be mindful that our correspondence is not out of opposition to our beliefs, but to get at the truth. What I share merely represents why I believe the teachings I have accepted.

There is no indication of "enlightened" in Scripture that confirms the Gospel of salvation accepted by faith, just the reception of its knowledge. All who have been enlightened to the knowledge of the Gospel of Christ and has received Him by faith are saved, but not all who have been enlightened to the knowledge of the Gospel of Christ has received Him by faith. Nor do I see in the passages you've noted anything that addresses enlightenment, but rather the Light of Christ which brings enlightenment; not just in knowledge only (often sought for due to being interested but not necessarily for salvation) but in saving knowledge.

It only confirms receiving knowledge of the Gospel, not its acceptance by faith. One can receive "the knowledge of the truth" (Heb 10:26) and continue to "sin willfully" (i.e. remain an unbeliever).

tasted the heavenly gift - the gift here refers to salvation > eternal life Rom 6:23;

"Tasting" does not confirm acceptance but only trying or sampling.

partakers of the Holy Spirit - Rom 8:9

Unbelievers can be "partakers of the Spirit of God" by Him using them, which does not confirm salvation received (Mat 7:22, 23), same for Simon (Acts 8:18-24) who was interested in what God can do, but not to the saving of his soul.

But if they stopped "short of Christ" then they NEVER became Christians so they had come out of Judaism into what? From what will they go back into Judaism from making them apostates???

Apostatizing means to deny, renounce or leave something. It does not confirm that one who apostasies from something means they left something they have before accepted, but rather something in which they were interested but have never accepted. The permanent leaving confirms acceptance was never established, or they would not have left (1Jhn 2:19).

Though two can share their beliefs, I believe the most important and difficult-to-understand passages cannot necessarily be learned by someone explaining them, but it must be accompanied by the Spirit's individual teaching of it.

God's blessings to your Family!

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Unfortunately I can't comment on F W Grants words as He is not here to clear up a few things. drop the personal remarks reba

Mike.

I think netchaplain does quite well with his own revelation.
Also, he is a continual reminder of how Christians should talk to other people, something I need and appreciate in him.

 

[Drew]

Unbelievers can be "partakers of the Spirit of God" by Him using them, which does not confirm salvation received (Mat 7:22, 23), same for Simon (Acts 8:18-24) who was interested in what God can do, but not to the saving of his soul.

I think you are stretching things too far here. To "partake" of the Spirit strongly suggests that one has, in some sense at least, "received" and internally appropriated the Spirit. And I suggest it is otherwise fairly clear that only those that profess faith are granted access to the resources of the Spirit. Here is Matt 7:22-23 from NASB:

Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'23And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'

True enough, but I (and seabass) can object that there is every reason to suspect that, unlike the person in the Hebrews text who has "partaken" of the Spirit, the people described above have not likewise partaken.

And I do not see how the other text addresses seabass's point. The issue in the Acts text seems to be that someone thinks that they can "buy" the Spirit. But, again, the point in the Hebrews text is that someone has already partaken of it.

Besides, in this text we can be sure that Paul is addressing believers, yet he clearly identifies the possibility of their ultimate loss:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:12-13, NASB]

 

[netchaplain]

I think netchaplain does quite well with his own revelation.
Also, he is a continual reminder of how Christians should talk to other people, something I need and appreciate in him.

Thanks for the complimentary observation RT, was encouraging to me!

 

[Christ_empowered]

I'm trying to read and reread what you've posted. good info, just...the writing style...wow. Anyway, so its possible to experience the Holy Spirit, seem Christian, and yet...walk away because one never was truly saved?

 

[netchaplain]

I think you are stretching things too far here. To "partake" of the Spirit strongly suggests that one has, in some sense at least, "received" and internally appropriated the Spirit.

Hi Drew - Thanks for your input. Who is appropriating who can be a discrepancy here, and according to my comprehension it is the Spirit who is appropriating (using) the individuals, who were obviously unsaved (Matt 7:23).

 

[Drew]

I'm trying to read and reread what you've posted. good info, just...the writing style...wow. Anyway, so its possible to experience the Holy Spirit, seem Christian, and yet...walk away because one never was truly saved?

Your question contains an assumption that I would humbly ask you to at least step back and question. And that assumption is that there is a single point in time at which one can claim that someone is 'saved'. I think the Biblical picture is more nuanced, but in extremely dense form here is my understanding of it: While final salvation is conferred at a future great universal judgment (and, yes, all people are at this judgment - Romans 2:6-8), those who place faith in Jesus in the present are on a more or less certain track to pass that judgment because of the transformative action of the Holy Spirit in them. However, I think the scriptures are clear - one can fall away (sadly).

 

[netchaplain]

I'm trying to read and reread what you've posted. good info, just...the writing style...wow. Anyway, so its possible to experience the Holy Spirit, seem Christian, and yet...walk away because one never was truly saved?

Hi CE - Thanks for the reply and comment. The information I share is mostly unlike contemporary authors because they are from a few hundred years ago and errant teachings were much less common then. This is also why the primary Bible commentator I use is John Gill (1697–1771). He is also highly experience with all of the Jewish writings, which is one of the most significant advantages when studying Scripture.
http://www.christianity.com/bible/comments/gill/

and yet...walk away because one never was truly saved?

Their act of "walking away" confirms they know in their own heart that they do not want to accept the truth. Those who are desiring truth no matter what know who they are too.

 

[Drew]

Hi Drew - Thanks for your input. Who is appropriating who can be a discrepancy here, and according to my comprehension it is the Spirit who is appropriating (using) the individuals, who were obviously unsaved (Matt 7:23).

I agree, but surely you agree that this is not evidence that seabass is mistaken in his/her use of the Hebrews text that suggests the possibility that those who have "partaken" of the Spirit can fall away. I think we all agree that God can use unbelievers. But the issue seabass was addressing was your claim that believers cannot be lost. And although I wish I could agree with you, I think the scriptural evidence suggests that we can indeed fall away.

 

[netchaplain]

I agree, but surely you agree that this is not evidence that seabass is mistaken in his/her use of the Hebrews text that suggests the possibility that those who have "partaken" of the Spirit can fall away. I think we all agree that God can use unbelievers. But the issue seabass was addressing was your claim that believers cannot be lost. And although I wish I could agree with you, I think the scriptural evidence suggests that we can indeed fall away.

The "partaking" here just means taking part in being used of the Spirit, not taking part with the Spirit Himself in a salvific sense. One question, among many that I have to ask myself is, "Where would the sense be if God gives salvation to one He already knows is going to leave it?

 

[Drew]

The "partaking" here just means taking part in being used of the Spirit, not taking part with the Spirit Himself in a salvific sense.

I think that's a big stretch. People do not normally use the concept "partake of X" to denote "being used by X".

Either way, please tell me exactly what you think Paul means by these words:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:12-13, NASB]

One question, among many that I have to ask myself is, "Where would the sense be if God gives salvation to one He already knows is going to leave it?

But you are effectively using circular reasoning here - you assume the very thing that you need to make a Biblical cases for, namely that God "gives salvation" in the sense of a purely unliteral transaction. My whole point - and I think the Romans text is compelling support for it - is that we need to participate in the entire process.

I will be interested in reading what you think the Romans text is saying.

 

[netchaplain]

I think that's a big stretch. People do not normally use the concept "partake of X" to denote "being used by X".

Either way, please tell me exactly what you think Paul means by these words:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:12-13, NASB].

The apostle gives us to know the difference between those regenerated (not obliged or under sins domination to obey it), and those who are not regenerated, who are under sins dominion.

Same as Romans 8:5, 6: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

Christians can be "carnal" while growing in Christ (1Co 3:1), but not "carnally minded," which means they are unregenerated (unsaved), because "to be carnally minded is death" (eternal, second death), not life (Rom 8:6).

 

[reba]

Any one not understand NO DEBATE ?

edited to add...... I am in the wrong forum

 

[Drew]

Any one not understand NO DEBATE ?

We are in "Apologetics and Theology" under "Discussion and Debate".

If this was not a mistake on your part (we all make them), please explain, referencing the TOS, why we cannot "debate" in this area of the site (if I understand what you are telling us is that we should not be debating).

 

[reba]

Sheesh I apologize ... 'Net' almost always post in foundations of faith... busted again.. assumptions get me in trouble..

 

[netchaplain]

Sheesh I apologize ... 'Net' almost always post in foundations of faith... busted again.. assumptions get me in trouble..

Definitely my fault Sis, due to my change forums for more correspondence. Which also helps me understand why you would rather me not post in multiple forums.

 

[Drew]

The apostle gives us to know the difference between those regenerated (not obliged or under sins domination to obey it), and those who are not regenerated, who are under sins dominion.

Same as Romans 8:5, 6: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."

Christians can be "carnal" while growing in Christ (1Co 3:1), but not "carnally minded," which means they are unregenerated (unsaved), because "to be carnally minded is death" (eternal, second death), not life (Rom 8:6).

But the text I quoted does not, I think, allow you to make this distinction work. Here it is again:

So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh- 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [Romans 8:12-13, NASB].

Note how the language works: He is talking to "brethren". I happen to think this means he is addressing his remarks to Christians. If so, the logic of the text forces us to conclude that such a person can be lost and your position cannot be correct, unless there is a translation error or something else that resolves this.

For your position to survive the logic of this text, it has to be the case that "brethren" can include non-believers since Paul clearly says some of these can be lost ("if you live according to the flesh, you must die"). Well, I think that is highly unlikely given the context, not least the fact that the whole letter is directed to the church at Rome, but I concede I am not prepared to make that case.

You should know that I would love to believe what you believe - I just think the weight of the evidence is against it.