Are Christians to keep the Sabbath?

[BornAgain]

What was nailed to the cross? cheirographon tois dogmaisin is not the Law of God...

"What Does Colossians 2:14 Really Say?

It is of interest to note that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" is a Greek legal term that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--through Jesus the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"), not the law! "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the LORD: I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them" (Heb 10:16).

Even Protestant commentators realize this. Notice what Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible states about Colossians 2:14:

Whatever was in force against us is taken out of the way. He has obtained for us a legal discharge from the hand-writing of ordinances, which was against us (v. 14), which may be understood,

1. Of that obligation to punishment in which consists the guilt of sin. The curse of the law is the hand-writing against us, like the hand-writing on Belshazzar's wall. Cursed is every one who continues not in every thing. This was a hand-writing which was against us, and contrary to us; for it threatened our eternal ruin. This was removed when he redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us, Gal 3:13. (from Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible: New Modern Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1991 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.).

Some will argue that you still cannot keep the ten commandments (for "all have sinned"), even if they are all mentioned as being in effect after the crucifixion. Does this mean one should not try?

Furthermore, let's look at another translation:

14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross (Colossians 2:14, NASB)

The handwriting of requirements (often also called the hand-writing of ordinances) or certificate of debt was wiped away and nailed to the cross.

Which requirements were wiped out?

Please understand that the expression "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through the acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that the penalty was wiped out ("the handwriting of requirements"). But only the penalty, not the law! " - Bob Thiel

The Law was not nailed to the cross, the note of blood-guiltiness was nailed to the cross.

I agree...I just posted what the Bible said.

 

[rrowell]

Since we are picking meanings out of the air, I think it means a ride in the space shuttle.

The word Sabbatismos means a keeping of the Sabbath. Check a lexicon or the diaglott and find out what it means.

Paul here in Hebrews 4:4-11 is quoting David from Psalms 95:10-11:

Hebrews 4:4-11 (KJV)
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

and here is Psalms 95:10-11:

Psalms 95:10-11 (KJV)
Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Notice the word "rest" here? it is in reference to the land of Canaan, or the "promise land", it is well known to those then that the promise land was like a heavenly place...

But because of the peoples disobedience to God, NONE of them but TWO ever entered, Joshua and Caleb...

Paul is telling the Jews here in Heb. 4:4-11 that if they are not obedient to God they will not enter his "heavenly rest", just like those that he lead out of the land of Egypt...

The Greek unless you completely understand it will only confuse you and lead you astray, you cannot always arrive to the meaning of a Greek word by its root... it is a reflective language and endings and many other things can completely change the meaning of the word...

He is referring to "heavenly rest" in Heb. 4:11 like David is referring to "heavenly rest" in Psalms 95:11

 

[John 8:32]

Paul here in Hebrews 4:4-11 is quoting David from Psalms 95:10-11:

Hebrews 4:4-11 (KJV)
For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

and here is Psalms 95:10-11:

Psalms 95:10-11 (KJV)
Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have not known my ways: Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into my rest.

Notice the word "rest" here? it is in reference to the land of Canaan, or the "promise land", it is well known to those then that the promise land was like a heavenly place...

Just because the word rest appears, that does not mean it negates anything. Let's read a little about the people who do err in their heart...

Deu 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Here is how they erred, the hardness of their heart prevented them from obeying the Commandments in the manner God intended. How did He intend?

This is what Mat 5, 6 and 7 is about. The heart. Obeying God in thought and deed, not grudgingly, but with "joy and gladness".

But because of the peoples disobedience to God, NONE of them but TWO ever entered, Joshua and Caleb...

Do you realize what you wrote there? Because they disobeyed the Law of God! Same principle is reiterated in Heb 8...

Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

The problem was not the Law or even the Covenant, the problem was with the people. They erred in their heart, the did not have the heart to obey God as we have already seen.

Paul is telling the Jews here in Heb. 4:4-11 that if they are not obedient to God they will not enter his "heavenly rest", just like those that he lead out of the land of Egypt...

Exactly! Let's use another example, no matter how much you love someone and wish them well and try to do good for them, yet you steal their possessions, have you disobeyed? Now matter how much we proclaim we love God, say we want to serve Him and His people, if we disobey Him, what have we done? Righteousness? Disobedience brings wrath...

Eph 5:1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Heb 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
Heb 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Heb 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

The Greek unless you completely understand it will only confuse you and lead you astray, you cannot always arrive to the meaning of a Greek word by its root... it is a reflective language and endings and many other things can completely change the meaning of the word...

There is a complete difference in the words used for rest in Heb 4...

Verse 4...

G2664
καταπαύω
katapauō
kat-ap-ow'-o
From G2596 and G3973; to settle down, that is, (literally) to colonize, or (figuratively) to (cause to) desist: - cease, (give) rest (-rain).

verse 5...

G2663
κατάπαυσις
katapausis
kat-ap'-ow-sis
From G2664; reposing down, that is, (by Hebraism) abode: - rest.

finally, verse 9

G4520
σαββατισμός
sabbatismos
sab-bat-is-mos'
From a derivative of G4521; a “sabbatismâ€, that is, (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven): - rest.

A Sabbatism, it is a derivative of 4521...

G4521
σάββατον
sabbaton
sab'-bat-on
Of Hebrew origin [H7676]; the Sabbath (that is, Shabbath), or day of weekly repose from secular avocations (also the observance or institution itself); by extension a se'nnight, that is, the interval between two Sabbaths; likewise the plural in all the above applications: - sabbath (day), week.

He is referring to "heavenly rest" in Heb. 4:11 like David is referring to "heavenly rest" in Psalms 95:11

You are missing the point...

The Sabbath rest is a Commandment and also a shadow or type of the Millenium.

Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Things to come, yet future.

As far as them not entering into that rest...

They couldn't because of the hardness of their hearts prevented them from obeying.

 

[rrowell]

Just because the word rest appears, that does not mean it negates anything. Let's read a little about the people who do err in their heart...

I am sorry John,

I really am trying to get your point in all of this... you quoted Hebrews 4, I imagined you were trying to say "rest" in one of those verses has to do with the Sabbath (as in keeping the Sabbath "weekly observance"), then you agree they don't, and in the same post use a Greek Lexicon to say it does????

Give me your point in one or two sentences... (not a bunch of Lexical quotations or multiple verses)

What was your reason for quoting anything out of Hebrews 4:3-8 ?

 

[heymikey80]

I am sorry John,

I really am trying to get your point in all of this... you quoted Hebrews 4, I imagined you were trying to say "rest" in one of those verses has to do with the Sabbath (as in keeping the Sabbath "weekly observance"), then you agree they don't, and in the same post use a Greek Lexicon to say it does????

Give me your point in one or two sentences... (not a bunch of Lexical quotations or multiple verses)

What was your reason for quoting anything out of Hebrews 4:3-8 ?

Well, my reason was because Hebrews 4:4 specifically cites the seventh day, and then 4:7 cites a designation of the "Today" Sabbath day as a redesignation of that same seventh day:
"For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” 5 And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.” 6 Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, 7 again he appoints a certain day, “Today,”" Heb 4:4-7

I look at it this way: if Hebrews 4:7 said "Sunday" instead of "Today", there wouldn't be a seventh-day sabbath argument.

So there shouldn't be a seventh-day sabbath argument when Hebrews 4:7 says "Today".

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

Originally Posted by John 8:32
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Grk for rest here is Sabbatismos = a keeping of a Sabbath.

It means heavenly rest.

GE:

"heavenly rest" ... I take a heavenly rest after work in a hot foam bath. Right here on earth. Because 'heaven' is nowhere and never if not on earth and now.

But yes! I fully accept 'sabbatismos', "keeping of the Sabbath Day", "means heavenly rest". In fact "God the day the Seventh day from ALL, HIS, WORKS, RESTED".

... "RESTED" : How than in Jesus Christ "rested, God"?

How, than in Jesus Christ HAVING RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD", "rested, God"?

So that that heavenly nexus is very, very close between God's Rest 'katapausis' - Jesus Christ - and "keeping of the Sabbath Day (that) REMAINS VALID FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD" in Hebrews 4.

And what constitutes that indestructible closure between God's Rest and God's People's obligation to Sabbatism according to Hebrews 4?

THIS, that "Jesus HAD GIVEN THEM REST ... HE HAVING HIMSELF ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD FROM HIS OWN WORKS RESTED" - verses 8 an 10.

Again, HOW did Jesus give them REST?

By "having entered into his own rest as God in his own".

And what does that mean?

That He rose from the dead.

And what has that to do with "a Sabbath-keeping remaining for the People of God"?

That Jesus by having raised from the dead, "AS GOD THE DAY THE SEVENTH DAY RESTED FROM ALL HIS WORKS."

That is _all_ that constitutes the close nexus between "God having thus concerning the day the Seventh Day spoken" and God having "given them Rest": namely, "JESUS, having given them REST!"

 

[rrowell]

But yes! I fully accept 'sabbatismos', "keeping of the Sabbath Day", "means heavenly rest". In fact "God the day the Seventh day from ALL, HIS, WORKS, RESTED".

"keeping the Sabbath" is command that was given to the Jews in the old testament as a day of worship, it was done every 7 days so what they did was every 7 days they rested from their work and worshiped God (every Saturday).

Where you said "God the day the Seventh day from ALL, HIS, WORKS, RESTED" is exactly correct, this part is important to understand, God created the world in 6 days, "when His work was done" on the 7th day he went to heaven, to his "rest" and is still there...

... "RESTED" : How than in Jesus Christ "rested, God"?

How, than in Jesus Christ HAVING RAISED HIM FROM THE DEAD", "rested, God"?

So that that heavenly nexus is very, very close between God's Rest 'katapausis' - Jesus Christ - and "keeping of the Sabbath Day (that) REMAINS VALID FOR THE PEOPLE OF GOD" in Hebrews 4.

And what constitutes that indestructible closure between God's Rest and God's People's obligation to Sabbatism according to Hebrews 4?

THIS, that "Jesus HAD GIVEN THEM REST ... HE HAVING HIMSELF ENTERED INTO HIS OWN REST AS GOD FROM HIS OWN WORKS RESTED" - verses 8 an 10.

Again, HOW did Jesus give them REST?

By "having entered into his own rest as God in his own".

And what does that mean?

In the scripture we have been talking Hebrews about 4:3-9 there is a comparison, it is this:

God created the world in 6 days, when his work was done, on the 7th day he went to his heavenly rest and sits upon his throne.

In like manner:

Jesus came as man to reveal the word of God to man His plan of salvation, what we must do to be saved, and just like God "when his work was done" after he died and was resurrected he went to his heavenly rest, now sitting on the right hand of God awaiting Gods command to come back for his blessed obedient believers to take them to the heavenly rest that awaits them.

This is the rest spoken of in Hebrews 4:9.

Hebrews 4:9 (KJV)
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

"keeping the Sabbath" is command that was given to the Jews in the old testament as a day of worship, it was done every 7 days so what they did was every 7 days they rested from their work and worshiped God (every Saturday).

Where you said "God the day the Seventh day from ALL, HIS, WORKS, RESTED" is exactly correct, this part is important to understand, God created the world in 6 days, "when His work was done" on the 7th day he went to heaven, to his "rest" and is still there...

......................................................

GE:


Re:
RRowell, “"keeping the Sabbath" is command that was given to the Jews in the old testament as a day of worshipâ€

Yes, dead right. As right as dead … because …

“what they did was… they rested from their work†--- useless rest from useless work = ‘old covenant’ righteousness. While what God did, was to work to “the exceeding greatness of his power†unto their good in Jesus Christ. Watch! “Moses said unto the people, Fear _YE_ not, stand _YE_ still: AND SEE THE SALVATION OF THE LORD which _HE_ will shew to you _TODAY_ … the LORD shall fight _FOR_ you, and you, you, shall hold your PEACE! … Behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians … and I WILL GET ME HONOUR … Thus the LORD SAVED Israel THAT DAY … and Israel SAW THAT GREAT WORK WHICH THE LORD DID … THE LORD HATH TRIUMPHED GLORIOUSLY!â€

So what happened, do you reckon, with “THAT DAY … TODAYâ€, “the day of your gladness†in which “the LORD went to WAR†for the “salvation†of “the People of Godâ€?

This:
“… that it may be to you for a memorial before your God, I-AM-YOUR-MIGHTY-ONEâ€, “The day the Seventh Day is the Sabbath-of-the-LORD-GOD … remember that the LORD-GOD brought you out: _THEREFORE_ [because the LORD-GOD worked in HIS rest and rested in HIS work], commanded thee, to keep the Sabbath Day.â€

But what does Christianity tell us, No: it has nothing to do with what, God, worked, but all with what man must not do and in ANY CASE NEVER DID DO. Christianity try tell itself, “"keeping the Sabbath" is command that was given to the Jews in the old testament as a day of worshipâ€. I see nothing of the kind “in the old testamentâ€.

Also, in what do you see, “"keeping the Sabbath" is command that was given to the Jews in the old testament as a day of worshipâ€â€” “…as a day …â€â€” any day …
8) … as though “God thus concerning …†any day … “spake: And God the day the Seventh Day from ALL, HIS, WORKS, RESTED†and on any day, “brought us out that He might BRING US IN TO GIVE US THE LAND†and He of any day “SWARE†by “JESUS …â€, by whom _He_ “… HAD GIVEN THEM RESTâ€?!
7) … as though “the Sabbath†is any day but not “the (very) day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD�!
5) … as though “the Sabbath†is MAN’S “keeping†and not GOD’S by own “TRIUMPH†through Jesus Christ?!
4) … as though “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD’S†doing, is but the old covenant that “the Jews in the old testament†swore to keep upon own merit and by own strength?!
3) … as though “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD†were ‘the old covenant’ that “the Jews in the old testament†swore to keep upon own merit by own strength, any, “every 7 days�!
2) … as though “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD†were ‘the old covenant’ that “the Jews in the old testament†swore to keep upon own merit by own strength, any, “every Saturday�!
1) … as though God was thus “worshipped�!
This is where ‘right’ became ‘dead’ altogether.


Re:
RRowell, “Where you said "God the day the Seventh day from ALL, HIS, WORKS, RESTED" is exactly correct, this part is important to understand, God created the world in 6 days, "when His work was done" on the 7th day he went to heaven, to his "rest" and is still there...â€

Which of course you offer no Scripture for support or to justify. In other words, yours is NOTHING than speculation.
No, your spinning, is much AGAINST what is actually WRITTEN.
Read what is written, that God worked and where He worked what He worked,
… under heaven …
… in Paradise …
… in Eden …
… on earth …
“… ON THE DAY The Seventh Day God ENDED: his work which He had made, and He RESTED: on THE DAY The Seventh Day from all his works He had made.â€
Read what God worked and where He worked what He worked
AFTER “…thus were finished the heavens and the earth and all their hosts … the Sixth Dayâ€â€” read it in Genesis 3 from verse 8 to verse 24 … THAT was God’s WORK and THAT was God’s REST, on, and of, “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD†through none other than HIMSELF “BY THE SONâ€!
“FOR / BECAUSE the LORD … RESTED the day The Seventh Day WHEREFORE the LORD blessed the day The Seventh Day and hallowed it.â€
Nothing than and nothing but, “FOR†reason of God’s, “own rest†as nothing than and nothing but “FOR†God’s, “own works†… as per Hebrews 4:8-10— that “God … in these last day … by the Son … to us … thus concerning the day The Seventh Day, hath spoken†as per Hebrews 1:2 … “the Son … (having been) the Brightness of the LORD'S Glory and the express image of God’s Person in the upholding of all things by The Ws Power†“in times past†even from “in the very beginning†and the redemption from Egypt. Because it is “CHRIST THE SAME yesterday today and tomorrowâ€â€” God’s Good and Perfect Gift from above, “COMETH DOWN from the Father of Light†--- Jesus Christ, “with whom†like with the Father, “there is no variableness neither shadow of turning.â€

Like in Him, “the Lord of the Sabbath Dayâ€, in “the day The Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GODâ€, there is no variableness neither shadow of turning.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

In the scripture we have been talking Hebrews about 4:3-9 there is a comparison, it is this:

God created the world in 6 days, when his work was done, on the 7th day he went to his heavenly rest and sits upon his throne.

In like manner:

Jesus came as man to reveal the word of God to man His plan of salvation, what we must do to be saved, and just like God "when his work was done" after he died and was resurrected he went to his heavenly rest, now sitting on the right hand of God awaiting Gods command to come back for his blessed obedient believers to take them to the heavenly rest that awaits them.

This is the rest spoken of in Hebrews 4:9.

Hebrews 4:9 (KJV)
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

GE:

Re:
RRowell, “when his work was done,[/B] on the 7th day he went to his heavenly rest and sits upon his throneâ€.

No; God worked here on earth in Eden unto the salvation of Adam and Eve on the Seventh Day that began the Sixth Day “in the cool of day†sunset after, Genesis 3:8. God ‘worked’, his ‘Rest’; God’s ‘Rest’ is the redemption of man, through Jesus Christ. God’s Rest is NOT “the day The Seventh Day the Sabbath _Day_ of the LORD GODâ€. Christ FINISHED ALL his work of redemption ON EARTH in that he died and rose from the dead again.

But God “made the Sabbath†“in the day the Seventh Day†that, “God finished all his works AND RESTED … THEREFOREâ€.
“THEREFOREâ€â€” that is, “BECAUSE JESUS HAD GIVEN THEM REST†--- not because the day The Seventh Day had given them rest. Nevertheless “THEREFORE the LORD blessed the day The Seventh Day and sanctified it IN THAT in it He _RESTED_â€.
Then in Hebrews – in the NEW Testament – “there THEREFORE [‘ara’] : because JESUS had given them REST [‘katepausin’] REMAINS VALID [‘apoleipetai’] keeping of the Sabbath Day [‘sabbatismos’] FOR THE PEOPLE OF GODâ€, to do as man’s obedience of FAITH in Jesus Christ.

“This is the rest spoken of in Hebrews 4:9â€â€” a very real and present and local, human duty as the Christian Church, “the People of Godâ€.

Re:
RRowell, “Jesus … "when his work was done" after he died and was resurrected he went to his heavenly rest, now sitting on the right hand of God ….â€

Jesus finished – had his work of redemption and recreation done THROUGH THAT HE DIED and “God by the GLORY of the Fatherâ€, “in the exceeding greatness of his power … RAISING HIM from the dead, EXALTED Him and SEATED / ENTHRONED Him at his own right hand in heavenly Majesty.â€

The MOMENT Christ rose from the dead;
The WAY Christ rose from the dead;
The PLACE Christ rose from the dead.

WHERE was that?

“According to the Scripturesâ€, it was “IN THE ARK OF THE TESTIMONY†“IN THE MOST HOLY PLACE†othe Sanctuary of God’s PRESENCE and Almighty Power, Jesus Christ’s EARTHLY “COFFIN†his grave, the grave of Joseph, “in the full Fellowship of the Trinity†(Klaas Schilder).

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

.............
4:7 cites a designation of the "Today" Sabbath day as a redesignation of that same seventh day:
...................................
So there shouldn't be a seventh-day sabbath argument when Hebrews 4:7 says "Today".

GE:

Neither the "today" cited in 4:7 and "another day after these things" cited in verse 8b, are the Seventh Day cited in verse 4.

"Today" has always been the day of salvation-OPPORTUNITY that recurred several times through Old Testament times. But "in these LAST days … God has spoken to _us_” in the Christian era “by the Son”, for the last time.

Therefore “IF JESUS HAD GIVEN them (the People of God) Rest, God after THESE THINGS …” of the eternal salvation or “Rest …” that “… JESUS had given them … would not speak of another day …” of salvation ever again. The “ANOTHER day” of verse 8b is not the "today" ‘designated’ in 4:7 or the Sabbath or Seventh Day ‘designated’ in verse 4. The “ANOTHER day” of verse 8b is no ‘redesignation’ but warrants a ‘redesignation’ of the “Today” of salvation opportunity in “JESUS” who “had given them Rest” once for all and for eternity, shall never again occur.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

I am sorry John,

I really am trying to get your point in all of this... you quoted Hebrews 4, I imagined you were trying to say "rest" in one of those verses has to do with the Sabbath (as in keeping the Sabbath "weekly observance"), then you agree they don't, and in the same post use a Greek Lexicon to say it does????

Give me your point in one or two sentences... (not a bunch of Lexical quotations or multiple verses)

What was your reason for quoting anything out of Hebrews 4:3-8 ?

GE


Hebrews 1 to 4 NOWHERE speaks about the 'Sabbath' --- 'Sabbath-rest' or 'Sabbath-Day' except in ONE WORD, 'sabbatismos', once, in 4:9, "sabbatism" : the culture of the Sabbath Day purely of MAN'S doing (or neglect).

In 4:4 God's speaking and God's doing are referred to and are quoted with the allusion to and implication of PURELY GOD'S speaking of and God's doing on the Seventh Day [Sabbath] through Jesus Christ eventually and ultimate in his Resurrection from the dead.

In EVERY instance in Hebrews the word "rest", 'katapausis' / 'katapauoh' means in essence - very simply - GOD'S SPEAKING AND GOD'S DOING IN JESUS CHRIST THE 'REST' OF GOD --- nothing but nothing like the Sabbath Day as such OR of man's doing, goodness or obedience howsoever.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

........................................

or a sabbath day:—[The sabbath means rest, and was a shadow of the rest which believers have in Christ.
............................

GE:


'Shabbath' Hebrew Noun / Greek 'Sabbaton' - "Sabbath", means 'Sabbath Day'; 'Sabbath Day's rest'. It NEVER means 'rest' in the NT.

The Sabbath in the OT "... was a shadow of the rest which believers have in Christ."

In Colossians 2:16 "Sabbaths-Feast(-of-Christ-the Substance) ... is shadow of things-a-coming: CHRIST BEING THE SUBSTANCE (of it) ... the Head, from Whom the whole Body (of Christ's Own) … growing with the growth of God … is ministered nourishment." THUS, the Sabbath in the New Testament is shadow, spectre, promise and hope “of the Rest which believers have in Christâ€.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

........................
In that He will put His Torah in our minds and write His commandments not on stone but on the tablets of our hearts.

....................

GE:

... the 'Torah'

Where in Scripture?

I may be wrong, but could not find such statement.

 

[Gerhard Ebersöhn]

.....................................
Jesus did not labor on the Sabbath; it was easy for him to speak the word and restore the withered hand.
...............

GE:

"My Father WORKS / LABOURS unto this day [the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD] and I, WORK / LABOUR [on this very day the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD GOD].â€

Jesus Christ WORKED "TOWARDS / UNTO the day" the Sabbath Day. And He reached AIM and "accomplished" / "finished","all the WOKS of _God_", "... of God ON THE SEVENTH DAY".

Explanation?

NOT, that "Jesus did not labour on the Sabbath; it was easy for him to speak the word and restore the withered hand",

but, that

"God by the EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF HIS POWER WHICH HE WORKED ... RAISED Christ from the dead."

That, is, was, and again, is the 'rest-of-God' that He "rested on the Seventh Day" --- 'Seventh Day', OF THE WEEK, "the day the SABBATH DAY of the LORD GOD"!

 

[smaller]

Good N.T. understandings of all law inclusive of the Sabbath falls in line with shadows and typologies:

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come,

Col. 2:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Believers who pick up 'the law' which is a matter of shadows and of good things that are not yet here or transpired and then use those laws to judge other believers don't know much, if anything, about 'the Law' or the Sabbath.

To understand Law one must understand shadows because that is what the Law is. A shadow.

For those who are led to see the Law, they will see that believers who condemn other believers over the Sabbath have actually been captured themselves by lawlessness within their hearts. It is actually good to avoid such bearers as they simply do not see and are not honest with matters of Law whatsoever. The Law has in fact revealed that they seek to destroy other believers. That is the exposure of the Law, showing what they really are on the inside of their flesh box. Intended killers of other believers and justifiers of themselves.

Hypocrisy has been around quite awhile in the world of 'belief.'

s

 

[rrowell]

Good N.T. understandings of all law inclusive of the Sabbath falls in line with shadows and typologies:

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come,

Col. 2:
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Believers who pick up 'the law' which is a matter of shadows and of good things that are not yet here or transpired and then use those laws to judge other believers don't know much, if anything, about 'the Law' or the Sabbath.

To understand Law one must understand shadows because that is what the Law is. A shadow.

For those who are led to see the Law, they will see that believers who condemn other believers over the Sabbath have actually been captured themselves by lawlessness within their hearts. It is actually good to avoid such bearers as they simply do not see and are not honest with matters of Law whatsoever. The Law has in fact revealed that they seek to destroy other believers. That is the exposure of the Law, showing what they really are on the inside of their flesh box. Intended killers of other believers and justifiers of themselves.

Hypocrisy has been around quite awhile in the world of 'belief.'

s

The Law was abolished, it was for the Jew, it was abolished for a new covenant that was for the Jew and Gentile alike, "for to make in himself of twain one new man"

Ephesians 2:14-17 (KJV)
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

To abolish is not to destroy, he came to fulfill it:

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

It is now but a shadow because he did not destroy it it was a schoolmaster:

Galatians 3:24 (KJV)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Because he came and fulfilled it, we are no longer under it:

Galatians 3:25 (KJV)
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

I could go on, but this is enough to see there is no salvation in the law. but there is a plethora of teaching we can learn from in it.

 

[smaller]

The Law was abolished, it was for the Jew, it was abolished for a new covenant that was for the Jew and Gentile alike, "for to make in himself of twain one new man"

Ephesians 2:14-17 (KJV)
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

To abolish is not to destroy, he came to fulfill it:

Many viewers will focus on 'set up' scriptures. The law remains against all lawlessness, sin is lawlessness and sin hasn't been excused under the law or granted license under Grace. No believer in truth can say they have no sin and be 'in truth' so the math is pretty clear on law being against that working in believers regardless of showing up in a pew on Saturday or Sunday thinking they are somehow being 'legally obedient.'

The law also testifies to faith, mercy, hope, forgiveness, love, grace and many other New Testament matters as well, so there is no use throwing it out. Just depends on how much one is led to see therein.

Matthew 5:17 (KJV)
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

It is now but a shadow because he did not destroy it it was a schoolmaster:

Galatians 3:24 (KJV)
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Because he came and fulfilled it, we are no longer under it:

Galatians 3:25 (KJV)
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

I could go on, but this is enough to see there is no salvation in the law. but there is a plethora of teaching we can learn from in it.

For the entire 'no law' proof sets there is a like body of 'pro law' proof sets.

It's easy bait to take one side or the other. Much harder to see the validity in both.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Many do not understand that the law and the prophets also contain the entirety of New Testament teachings including salvation by faith.

Paul for example references O.T. scriptures hundreds of times in his letters verifying their validity for New Testament believers.

Just a matter of 'how' one may see them, largely.

Elimination of scripture is not my favorite method of understandings. There are many ways to see them.

s

 

[rrowell]

Many viewers will focus on 'set up' scriptures. The law remains against all lawlessness, sin is lawlessness and sin hasn't been excused under the law or granted license under Grace. No believer in truth can say they have no sin and be 'in truth' so the math is pretty clear on law being against that working in believers regardless of showing up in a pew on Saturday or Sunday thinking they are somehow being 'legally obedient.'

The law also testifies to faith, mercy, hope, forgiveness, love, grace and many other New Testament matters as well, so there is no use throwing it out. Just depends on how much one is led to see therein.
For the entire 'no law' proof sets there is a like body of 'pro law' proof sets.

It's easy bait to take one side or the other. Much harder to see the validity in both.

Matthew 23:23
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here we are under the old law, Christ live under the old law and he himself keep it perfectly... the New Covenant was not yet in effect.

Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Naturally you only use half the scripture:

Acts 24:14-15 (KJV)
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The old law prophesied the Christ, he never doubted it!

Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Again you leave out the entire thought:

Romans 3:21-27 (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Many do not understand that the law and the prophets also contain the entirety of New Testament teachings including salvation by faith.

Paul for example references O.T. scriptures hundreds of times in his letters verifying their validity for New Testament believers.

Just a matter of 'how' one may see them, largely.

Elimination of scripture is not my favorite method of understandings. There are many ways to see them.

s

Christ did not (destroy) the law, he fulfilled it!

Why is it a man can have a Mortgage on his house and fully understand the conditions set forth in it, then remortgage his house with that same bank, the new mortgage may contain some of the same as the old and may contain new conditions attached, yet he knows it would be foolish to try and enforce any condition not contained in the new that was contained in the old upon his banker?

Yet when it comes to the agreements (covenants) God has made between Him and man, he just can't get it?

 

[smaller]

Here we are under the old law, Christ live under the old law and he himself keep it perfectly... the New Covenant was not yet in effect.

Naturally you only use half the scripture:

Acts 24:14-15 (KJV)
14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: 15And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

The old law prophesied the Christ, he never doubted it!

Again you leave out the entire thought:

Romans 3:21-27 (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Christ did not (destroy) the law, he fulfilled it!

Law is as noted prior, interesting subject matter.

Many forms of believers seek to brush it away.

I can only remind that Law is Gods Word. One should not intentionally seek to toss away Gods Words if they are a believer of/in same.

I might agree that Paul's statements could lead to that conclusion, but also as noted prior for every scripture set of no law there is just as compelling a set for pro law.

To me it will remain a pity on any student who thinks landing only on one side of the ledgers of those scripture sets have any serious approach to the matters.

It will remain that both sides are fully true when they are understood properly.

I noted before that the law is undoubtedly against the lawless. Sin is lawlessness and we all have sin. Grace has not 'excused' or 'granted' license to anyone inclusive of believers to sin nor has law. They are perfectly aligned in their being against all sin.

Therefore, being against sin, both law and grace are equal in this regards.

And I would go further to say that if any believer is against sin and evil they should not logically be against law.

Why is it a man can have a Mortgage on his house and fully understand the conditions set forth in it, then remortgage his house with that same bank, the new mortgage may contain some of the same as the old and may contain new conditions attached, yet he knows it would be foolish to try and enforce any condition not contained in the new that was contained in the old upon his banker?

I understand only that most N.T. believers don't really want to be honest about the facts of their own sin and seek grace as some kind of continuing 'excuse' for sin.

Law will ultimately be a test of honesty for any believer about their own sin.

If any believer is honest about their own sin, they will admit they are a sinner and that the law does condemn their sin, period. There is no escape from this fact nor is it excused under grace.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

Any believer who but but but's on the fact of their own sin and can not come to a basic honest conclusion about having it as a present tense matter continually proven under law or excusing same under grace I would consider basically dishonest. And some are entirely dishonest about this matter.

Yet when it comes to the agreements (covenants) God has made between Him and man, he just can't get it?

It's perhaps a more interesting arena than such simplicities above imply. I don't care how obedient you may claim to be no honest believer can say they 'have' no sin as a present tense matter and be 'in Truth.'

For me law is a quick litmus test of honesty. No forms of obedience can bring any honest believer to the position where they can claim they have no sin. Those who do try to make that claim really don't like to hear about their sin and prefer to 'cloak' it under legal obedience or grace.

They can make any claims they think they see. The fact is no one is escaping the conclusion of having sin as a present tense working within the heart and mind.

If a man claims obedience, they should obey being truthful from the start. And if they are, they will not claim their sin to be legally obedient or their sin authorized or eliminated under grace.

That's why I have come to disdain many sects. They just are not honest in this particular arena. People love to be sold a way around this particularly nasty fact and be 'let off the hook' for their sins.

s

 

[rrowell]

It's perhaps a more interesting arena than such simplicities above imply. I don't care how obedient you may claim to be no honest believer can say they 'have' no sin as a present tense matter and be 'in Truth.'

For me law is a quick litmus test of honesty. No forms of obedience can bring any honest believer to the position where they can claim they have no sin. Those who do try to make that claim really don't like to hear about their sin and prefer to 'cloak' it under legal obedience or grace.

They can make any claims they think they see. The fact is no one is escaping the conclusion of having sin as a present tense working within the heart and mind.

If a man claims obedience, they should obey being truthful from the start. And if they are, they will not claim their sin to be legally obedient or their sin authorized or eliminated under grace.

That's why I have come to disdain many sects. They just are not honest in this particular arena. People love to be sold a way around this particularly nasty fact and be 'let off the hook' for their sins.

s

It is a fact, and always was, that man cannot go through life sinless, if one man could do it Christ would not have to have been made flesh to be the perfect Lamb.

Any man that say's they are sinless (before or after Christ) is a liar.

1 John 1:10 (KJV)
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Anyone who thinks there is salvation in the old law is in fact the Legalistic and nullifies the Cross.

Like before the Law, Abraham did sin, but because he did his best to continually obey God he was counted Righteous.

Like Abraham, and After Christ, man will still sin, being "in Christ" will not change that, but if we have the same "obedient faith" that Abraham had to God, a true Christian will be counted Righteous by obeying Christ, during the Mosaic law sacrifice rolled back sin for but a year, but Obeying ALL of Christ commands, and continuing in "obedient faith" the blood of Christ will continually wash away sin accounting righteousness to the man as long as he (like Abraham) keep "obedient faith" (we have to work at it, the works James speaks of)