Are Negative thoughts Sin?

[Edward]

I'm not sure where you get all this from... God said to Abraham that He was Abraham's "exceeding great reward." Everything is downhill from God, lesser, inferior, to Him. When God gives to us Himself, we have the greatest possession in all of Creation. Thoughts of a "heavenly account," then, seem odd to me, appealing to a desire for material gain, as though God alone is not sufficient reward for our service to Him on earth.

You are correct that the Lord Himself is our reward. To be able to live in His presence and His glory.

But there are other rewards and if I recall correctly, they have a bearing on our station in Heaven. There is differences in amounts of rewards and the resulting position that we are given there. So with some forethought I think that, I don't want the Plumbers position in Heaven again. It was bad enough here on earth, lol.

He did say to build up your treasures in Heaven. What else could this mean?

 

[jaybo]

Indeed. But remember, our lack of perfection is in itself sin.

There are 3 things that commonly get lumped together by most christians:

sin - aiming at obedience but missing it.
transgression - intentional disobedience
iniquity - the transgenerational effects of sins and transgressions

a) Where do you get these definitions?
b) How do you know what "most Christians" think?

 

[gordon777]

Are sinful thoughts sin ?

Yes they are.

Also a sinful thought is one of doubt in Jesus Christ risen from the dead to life eternal.

That is why when anyone transgresses belief in Jesus Christ the risen Lord, they are to not be received.




2 John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:





How do you avoid anyone who brings negative/sinful ( doubting/damnable heresies. Romans 14:23. 2 Peter 2:1 ) thoughts ? Instruction and the way is already taught in the scriptures given to us for belief in Jesus Christ, which is to avoid all foolish questions and contentions, as all of that is vanity.

An admonition is given to anyone who crosses your path, then along with avoiding the negative ideas that are brought your way, to reject those ideas/negativities and the ones who bring them also.





Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.






Regarding 2 Corinthians 10:5. For people who are negative/sinning in thought, it is because of a lack of sincere belief in the risen Lord Jesus Christ from the dead to everlasting life.

The scriptures teach all things for belief in Jesus Christ. Every thought is brought to the obedience of Christ when we believe in Him being risen again from the dead ( that is what born again is, within man, to be risen with Him. Colossians 2:12, and we set our affections and thoughts on above then when risen with Him.... Colossians 3:1-3.)

When negative thoughts are brought in those who do not believe in Jesus Christ risen again from the dead, their disbelief has not been brought into captivity. Elect are through this obedience of the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, which is having a good conscience when those who are in unbelief speak evil of your good conversation in Jesus Christ.

This is what saves the soul, to answer back humbly to false accusers in apparent disbelief of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, with a good conscience in displayed belief, ( for the glory of God through Jesus Christ.) which is evidenced by no longer having unchecked thoughts of vanity and unbelief of the risen Lord Jesus Christ, to now have obedience by believing in the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, which is Grace and peace multiplied unto you.


Now through belief in the blood of Jesus Christ, we draw near ( to God) in full assurance of faith ( no doubt) which is our hearts sprinkled from a previous evil conscience ( of unbelief in Christ risen and resurrected.) and our bodies washed in pure water. ( out of His belly flowed rivers of living water. John 7:38-39.)





2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1 Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

1 Peter 3:16 Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ.

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

 

[Runmyramble]

What I was saying is that, if you absolutely overflow your mind with the word of God, spending much time in it by thinking it, reading it, praying it, eating it and living it, that there will not be room for negative thoughts in your mind.

That is the awesome thing about God's word. it will bring you closer to God. And when we draw closer to God, then God draws closer to us. When that happens graces are increased so evil seeds introduced into our thought stream are quickly recognized and rejected. Sort've like a quick draw, lol. How fast can you give it to the Lord? And then evil thoughts can not stay long.

Even though we are born again we have not yet been perfected and we do live in an evil world in a fleshbody so, yes, bad thoughts will come to us until we leave this flesh body. So I was speaking rather loosely by saying they wont, but in a practical sense, God is with us and so these thoughts will be instantly recognized by our conscience and rejected or given to the Lord so they are not in our thought stream long enough to do any damage.

The key is to remember Peter. When he was getting out of that boat to walk on the water, you bet he had his eyes on Jesus! It was only when he took his eyes off of Jesus to look upon the rough seas that he began sinking. Help!

I hear about so many people even Christians that are tormented by a porn addiction. I've never had a problem with porn. Want to stop being addicted to porn? Stop watching it 14 hours a day! Stop thinking about it. These things leave a residue in the mind and have a half life. That's why you wake up with the song in your mind that you listened to last night. So to paint over that residue with spiritual-Kilz (Lol), try spending 14 hours in the word instead!

The ones who embrace the bad thoughts are making the choice to do so. To use the time thinking on whatever evil you would is essentially turning your back on the Lord at that time. There are consequences for that. You lose the flow of graces and spiritual protections one normally gets when seeking and abiding.You begin to sink, just ask Peter, he'll tell you.

I love the example of Peter...Something to be reminded about....usually I give it to God as soon as it hits me I've been thinking on a situation too long...

 

[gordon777]

Imagine born again as not doing perfectly right, doing evil, hurting others, having an evil conscience still.

Then before being born again, what is the difference ? People struggle in the flesh, do evil, hurt others, and all that is done in an evil conscience.

Imagine that tares are acceptable, and you can make bread out of them. Or, as scripture and as wisdom teaches us, that wheat is what is taken into mans barn, and into Gods too. That is why when anyone is in Christ, they are a new creature, a new man, and all old is passed away, as all became new in Christ, in a good conscience as in their new heart and new Spirit they now are given by God to believe that He rose Christ our Lord from the dead, and that is why born again cant struggle to do all in righteousne4ss, as they now have believed through the Spirit of truth in righteousness.

At the same time, as warned, people being lovers of their own selves can only struggle to love others, and it is impossible for them to talk honestly about it, because their only interest is to not condemn themselves, but to speak hard things about God instead.

Lies are sin, and lies about God will be executed in judgement, as told..




Jude 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

 

[Tenchi]

Imagine born again as not doing perfectly right, doing evil, hurting others, having an evil conscience still.

Then before being born again, what is the difference ? People struggle in the flesh, do evil, hurt others, and all that is done in an evil conscience.

The difference, as Scripture explains, is that the born-again person, while not instantly perfect in their understanding and conduct, has the wherewithal in their new spiritual position in Christ to become, over time, a "vessel, sanctified and meet for the Master's use." (2 Timothy 2:21) There is no hope of such a thing coming to pass in the life of a person who is not born-again.

Ephesians 4:13-16 (NASB)
13 until we all ATTAIN TO the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a MATURE man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to GROW UP in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the GROWTH of the body for the building up of itself in love.

1 Peter 2:2 (NASB)
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may GROW in respect to salvation,

2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
18 but GROW in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Hebrews 5:12-14 (NASB)
12 For though BY THIS TIME YOU OUGHT TO BE TEACHERS, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for HE IS AN INFANT.
14 But solid food is for THE MATURE, who BECAUSE OF PRACTICE have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

As these verses/passages reveal, every believer is on a continuum of growth spiritually, becoming progressively more mature in their faith and deeper in their walk with God - or they should be. Immediate, all-perfected holiness for the born-again person, however, is nowhere taught in God's word.

 

[jaybo]

The difference, as Scripture explains, is that the born-again person, while not instantly perfect in their understanding and conduct, has the wherewithal in their new spiritual position in Christ to become, over time, a "vessel, sanctified and meet for the Master's use." (2 Timothy 2:21) There is no hope of such a thing coming to pass in the life of a person who is not born-again.

Ephesians 4:13-16 (NASB)
13 until we all ATTAIN TO the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a MATURE man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to GROW UP in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,
16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the GROWTH of the body for the building up of itself in love.

1 Peter 2:2 (NASB)
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may GROW in respect to salvation,

2 Peter 3:18 (NASB)
18 but GROW in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory, both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

Hebrews 5:12-14 (NASB)
12 For though BY THIS TIME YOU OUGHT TO BE TEACHERS, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for HE IS AN INFANT.
14 But solid food is for THE MATURE, who BECAUSE OF PRACTICE have their senses trained to discern good and evil.

As these verses/passages reveal, every believer is on a continuum of growth spiritually, becoming progressively more mature in their faith and deeper in their walk with God - or they should be. Immediate, all-perfected holiness for the born-again person, however, is nowhere taught in God's word.

Well said!

 

[gordon777]

The difference, as Scripture explains, is that the born-again person, while not instantly perfect in their understanding and conduct, has the wherewithal in their new spiritual position in Christ to become, over time, a "vessel, sanctified and meet for the Master's use." (2 Timothy 2:21)

Looking at 2 Timothy 2:20-21, we see some vessels are to dishonour, and some to honour.

To be honour and sanctified, meet for God, is to be purged from dishonour.....


2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.



Now we know we need to be sanct5ified, to come from dishonour to honour.

That is being washed, being sanctified, being justified ( just/honourable) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God ( Holy Spirit in us, and not unholy.) As no coveteous, no revilers, inherit the Kingdom of God...




1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.




Now back on going from dishonour to honour, and what this means.

This is belief in the resurrection of the dead ( of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is us ( as a seed of mustard. Mark 4:31-32.) beginning in dishonour and sown in weakness ( before belief in the resurrection of the dead.) to be raised ( believing) in glory and to be raised with power, ( born again not of corruptible, by the Word of God who lives and abides for ever.) raised Spiritually, ( no longer natural man. 1 Corinthians 2:14.) but made the last Adam, a quickening Spirit.

We are risen with Christ, quickened together with Him....




1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

[gordon777]

It is prayer from the Apostle, that God would grant those ( yet in unbelief in Christ being risen) to be strengthened ( risen in power and honour) for Christ to dwell in their heart by faith, to be rooted in love ( sown as the mustard seed.) to know the love of Christ ( pass all knowledge of natural man.) to be filled with all the fulness of God. ( in belief.)

That is the same Apostles ( who prayed in Ephesians 3.) to perfect the saints, until they come into that unity of the faith and knowledge of the Son of God, unto that perfect man ( which is faith of Christ, believing in the risen Lord to be vessels of honour, and to go from weakness in doubt and dishonour, to strength and power in belief. in the Living Lord.)




Ephesians 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.



Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

 

[gordon777]

Galatians 4, first exhorts, how the Apostle stood in doubt of them, how Christ is not formed in them. That is told why, because they turned to faithlessness in bondage.

1 Peter 2, shows the same thing, how they are in malice, guile, hypocrisies and envy and evil, which is not Christ formed in them, as newborn babes, and they have yet to9 taste that the Lord is gracious, as we cannot turn the grace of God into vanity, by doing evil, as HIs grace is HIs Spirit to call us out of that ( unbelief)





Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Galatians 4:19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.


1 Peter 2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, and all evil speakings,
2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.





Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[gordon777]

Beware to not be misled with the error of the wicked, but grow in grace, in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The stedfastness of our faith in Christ, to beware no man spoils us through vain deceit, but we are rootend and built up in Him, stablished in the faith. In Christ dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and WE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM, we put OFF THE BODY OF THE SINS OF THE FLESH. The sinners is in the error of his ways, as he is not converted. ( not born again. Matthew 18:3.)




2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Colossians 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

[gordon777]

Dull of hearing, unskilful in the word of righteousness, no senses exercised to discern good and evil.....


Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.





If anyone wants to try to show people dull of hearing, as in Hebrews 5:11, as converted and born again, then try another gospel, as it is not in the Lord Jesus Christ. When dull of hearing, as testified, they are not converted of the Holy Ghost, they never believed that Christ rose form the dead, they have proclaimed about themselves....





Matthew 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[Tenchi]

Looking at 2 Timothy 2:20-21, we see some vessels are to dishonour, and some to honour.

To be honour and sanctified, meet for God, is to be purged from dishonour.....


2 Timothy 2:20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.



Now we know we need to be sanct5ified, to come from dishonour to honour.

That is being washed, being sanctified, being justified ( just/honourable) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and by the Spirit of our God ( Holy Spirit in us, and not unholy.) As no coveteous, no revilers, inherit the Kingdom of God...

Well, hang on, there. What does Paul actually write to Timothy (who was a born-again believer)? "If a man therefore purge himself..." not, "if the Holy Spirit cleanses you from all sin." There is the spiritual work of the Spirit, bringing us into relationship with God (Titus 3:5; Romans 8:9-11; 1 John 4:13) and there is our manifesting that spiritual connection in our living. The former only the Spirit can do but the latter is our responsibility, it is what we do, empowered by the Spirit though we are. Why would Paul write such a thing to Timothy if, in his spiritual condition and practical living, Timothy was already sinlessly perfect?

1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Here, Paul is stating the fact of the changed condition of the born-again believers at Corinth but he doesn't only state this bit you've quoted. He goes on to write the following:

1 Corinthians 6:15-18 (NASB)
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Why in the world would Paul be writing such things to sinlessly-perfect Christians? He affirms that the remarks above are to "members of Christ" (vs. 15) and then implies that those same members of Christ are joining themselves to prostitutes! And because this was so, Paul had to explain the spiritual foulness of doing so when one is already "one spirit with the Lord" (vs. 17), and command the believers at Corinth to "flee immorality" (vs. 18).

So, spiritually, the believers at Corinth were joined to Christ, by the indwelling Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) made members of Christ, but they were engaging in sexual sin with (temple) prostitutes at the same time! But Paul never says to these confused believers, "Because of your sin, you have lost your salvation and are no longer joined to Christ," or, "Your sexual sin proves you aren't really born-again children of God," but, instead, he reasons with them, explaining that their sexual sin runs contrary to their new spiritual nature, obtained by their union with Christ through the Spirit. This quite dissolves the notion that one who is in Christ is free of all sin in their practical living and cannot sin.

Now back on going from dishonour to honour, and what this means.

This is belief in the resurrection of the dead ( of our Lord Jesus Christ.

That's not at all what Paul wrote to Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:20-22 (NASB)
20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

What was it of which Timothy was to cleanse himself? Youthful lusts (Timothy was a young man). Paul's command to Timothy was to "flee youthful lusts" and chase after righteousness, faith, love, etc. As he did so, Timothy would become (because he was not already) a "vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master." Here, again, Paul puts a serious crimp in the idea that a born-again person (as Timothy was) is free of sin and cannot sin.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Only a bit before this, Peter wrote the following:

1 Peter 1:13-16 (NASB)
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Why would Peter need to enjoin the readers of his letter to be "obedient" and "do not be conformed to your former lusts" and "be holy" if they were both sinless and incapable of sin? Clearly, Peter did not think they were, though he affirms them as "children (of God)" and "called by the Holy One."

It is prayer from the Apostle, that God would grant those ( yet in unbelief in Christ being risen) to be strengthened ( risen in power and honour) for Christ to dwell in their heart by faith, to be rooted in love ( sown as the mustard seed.) to know the love of Christ ( pass all knowledge of natural man.) to be filled with all the fulness of God. ( in belief.)

I'm afraid this is quite a tangled mass of confusion. Reading words and verses in their immediate context will help you enormously in properly understanding their meaning, though it will severely constrain the wandering connections you seem to want to make.

Galatians 4, first exhorts, how the Apostle stood in doubt of them, how Christ is not formed in them. That is told why, because they turned to faithlessness in bondage.

Galatians 4:6-12 (NASB)
6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
12 I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong;

See? When you take a verse in its immediate context, clarity of meaning is the result. Paul was speaking rhetorically when he wrote verse 11. He said the Galatians were "sons," that the Spirit was in their hearts crying 'Abba, Father," that they were "heirs through God," that they had "come to know, and be known by, God" and, after verse 11, affirms that those for whom he feared were "brethren." What did Paul actually think about the believers at Galatia? This passage clearly indicates that, despite their struggles with the temptation to be legalistic, Paul regarded them as born-again, fellow children of God.

Do you notice the trend in all that you've put forward above in making your case? In each instance so far, you've taken a verse or passage out of context, sliding past the difficulties context gives to your assertions and producing a very mistaken picture of God's word, as a result. Careful, brother this is God's truth your mishandling.

 

[D-D-W]

a) Where do you get these definitions?

For Sin and Transgression, from Strongs, Thayers Lexicon, Vine's, and some Orthodox Jewish sources.
For Iniquity, from seeing the many transgenerational references where that word is used in the context.

b) How do you know what "most Christians" think?

I read a lot from a variety of denominations and faith traditions.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Let's say that there are two neighbors who are at angst with each other. The aggressive one is named Duke, and in his heart, he wishes that the pleasant guy, Jimmy, were dead. Duke had ideas of shooting Jimmy in the brainpan.

If we were to ask Jimmy, which is better? For Duke to merely THINK about killing you, or actually killing you?

They're not the same.

 

[gordon777]

Well, hang on, there. What does Paul actually write to Timothy (who was a born-again believer)? "If a man therefore purge himself..." not, "if the Holy Spirit cleanses you from all sin."

Apostle Paul writes to Timothy, and that Epistle and all Epistles are read by the entire world, hearing from Apostle Paul, who is the Apostle to the entire of Gentiles.

No need for you to be confused, I will show it easily and clearly.

A man ( all men) have to purge themselves from dishonour, and being unsanctified, to be prepared for God. That is very simple and straight forward. Then seeing other verses regarding that purging, ( the old testament has many describing this purging by Jesus Christ coming to this world for us) and Hebrews 1, confirms this of Christ, that He Himself purged our sins and sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high. Hebrews 9, go on to show how it is that blood of Christ ( which He shed for us) and the giving of that eternal Spirit which purges our conscience from dead works ( in dishonour) to be made honourable) to now serve the living God. So now we see all goes together in harmony and simplicity, and without need for any mans private interpretations, only confusing their own selves.



2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

 

[gordon777]

1 Corinthians 6:15-18 (NASB)
15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.

Why in the world would Paul be writing such things to sinlessly-perfect Christians? He affirms that the remarks above are to "members of Christ" (vs. 15) and then implies that those same members of Christ are joining themselves to prostitutes! And because this was so, Paul had to explain the spiritual foulness of doing so when one is already "one spirit with the Lord" (vs. 17), and command the believers at Corinth to "flee immorality" (vs. 18).

So, spiritually, the believers at Corinth were joined to Christ, by the indwelling Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) made members of Christ, but they were engaging in sexual sin with (temple) prostitutes at the same time! But Paul never says to these confused believers, "Because of your sin, you have lost your salvation and are no longer joined to Christ," or, "Your sexual sin proves you aren't really born-again children of God," but, instead, he reasons with them, explaining that their sexual sin runs contrary to their new spiritual nature, obtained by their union with Christ through the Spirit. This quite dissolves the notion that one who is in Christ is free of all sin in their practical living and cannot sin.

Reading your own quote above, gets a very different answer to your assumptions.

May it never be ( God forbid) to take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot. ( prostitute)

If anyone did that, to join to a harlot, they are one body together. ( members together)

But, he that is joined to the Lord is one Spirit.

So, that separates two different perspectives, those doing fornication as being one body with harlots, and they who have fled fornication as being one Spirit with the Lord. They who do fornication also sin against their own body, and if any man does fornication, the Lord shall destroy them is told only three verses earlier in 1 Corinthians 3, so it is a warning for all who consider they are free to do this in the Lords name.




1 Corinthians 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

 

[gordon777]

That's not at all what Paul wrote to Timothy:

2 Timothy 2:20-22 (NASB)
20 Now in a large house there are not only gold and silver vessels, but also vessels of wood and of earthenware, and some to honor and some to dishonor.
21 Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from these things, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master, prepared for every good work.
22 Now flee from youthful lusts and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, with those who call on the Lord from a pure heart.

What was it of which Timothy was to cleanse himself? Youthful lusts (Timothy was a young man). Paul's command to Timothy was to "flee youthful lusts" and chase after righteousness, faith, love, etc. As he did so, Timothy would become (because he was not already) a "vessel for honor, sanctified, useful to the Master." Here, again, Paul puts a serious crimp in the idea that a born-again person (as Timothy was) is free of sin and cannot sin.

When Christ called the Apostles, ( Christ then a young man at age 30.) they were all young men. It is a common age for men to come to Christ, to begin to learn of Him, and to leave a life of unbelief, for now faith. See below for the verses showing this, of Saul before he was named Paul, of the young men receiving the Spirit, of God writing to the young men, because they are strong, the word of God abides in them, and they have overcome the wicked one.




Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

Acts 7:58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

1 John 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.





Now we know that the Epistle to Timothy, was to all young men to pursue the faith, and to as the other verses have shown, overcome the wicked one, overcome this world, even as Christ also overcame. ( being a vessel of honour=sinning not.)



Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

[gordon777]

Only a bit before this, Peter wrote the following:

1 Peter 1:13-16 (NASB)
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the former lusts which were yours in your ignorance,
15 but like the Holy One who called you, be holy yourselves also in all your behavior;
16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Why would Peter need to enjoin the readers of his letter to be "obedient" and "do not be conformed to your former lusts" and "be holy" if they were both sinless and incapable of sin? Clearly, Peter did not think they were, though he affirms them as "children (of God)" and "called by the Holy One."

The answer to your question, is just a little higher in the chapter. Why ask questions, as if you need to invent an answer, when it is right there, plain and explained ?

The inheritance is incorruptible and undefiled, and that is what born again is described as, incorruptible, and by their souls purified obeying the truth through the Spirit, unfeigned love of the brothers.

Then the reason for this strong exhortation is given, for a season they are in heaviness through manifold temptations, which is the trial of their faith, tried with fire, to be found with praise and honour ( not vessels of dishonour) and glory at the appearing of Christ, to receive the end of their faith and faint not...




1 Peter 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


1 Peter 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.





All we have to do ( is have knowledge of Gods word) and pass on to chapter 4, 1 Peter 4, of that same strange fiery trial, and we see it is against the evil speakers, to glorify the Lord God through being partaker of Christ's sufferings ( all their false accusations against Christ on the cross)...



1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.





None of them can be an evil doer, and this exhortation ( as you asked why??????) is so they wont be ashamed but to understand that they glorify God, as judgement had begun at the house of God, and the end of those who obey the gospel had come, as the righteous are scarcely saved, the sinner appears nowhere, so they who suffer, these trials ( which is why they are exhorted) suffer according to the will of God, committing the keeping of their souls to Him in well doing, as unto the faithful creator. ( you only need to read and what need you do you have left for disputing them that are written clearly and without a need for questioning, or turning the grace of God into lasciviousness. Jude 1:4.)




1 Peter 4:15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.
17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

 

[gordon777]

Galatians 4:6-12 (NASB)
6 Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"
7 Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.
9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again?
10 You observe days and months and seasons and years.
11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
12 I beg of you, brethren, become as I am, for I also have become as you are. You have done me no wrong;

He said the Galatians were "sons," that the Spirit was in their hearts crying 'Abba, Father," that they were "heirs through God," that they had "come to know, and be known by, God" and, after verse 11, affirms that those for whom he feared were "brethren." What did Paul actually think about the believers at Galatia? This passage clearly indicates that, despite their struggles with the temptation to be legalistic, Paul regarded them as born-again, fellow children of God.

Actually what is told of the Galatians ( as everybody in forums knows only too well) is that they were foolish, beginning in the Spirit, then faltering , by trusting in the works of the law.

Paul, in chapter 3, had to set out how faith works, it is by hearing of faith that we receive the Spirit, and of course then by hearing the law, there is no faith, and no Spirit. Thaat is then in vain for them as told.



Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?



That very same receiving of the grace of God in vain, was told to the Corinthians, and to not receive it in vain is told the same righteous way, to not blame the ministry by offences ( sins) but instead to approve ourselves in all things, in much patience, in afflictions,in distresses, in watching, fasting, by pureness, long suffering, kindness, by the Holy Ghost, ( faith comes by hearing and not by hearing the law or men who teach without faith) by the armour of righteousness on the right and on the left, by honour ( a vessel of honour) and by dishonour, from the deceivers opposition and false accusations, ( that is the trial of their faith.) as having nothing, to possess all things..




2 Corinthians 6: 1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

2 Corinthians 6:5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,
7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.





So total failure from the Galatians and for whoever supports their example of success.

They desired to be under the law, and Paul is in doubt of therm, as they show they are in doubt of Christ.



Galatians 4:20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?