Are Negative thoughts Sin?

[Hopeful]

Of the devil? Not necessarily. The devil is not the only source of sin in a believer's life.

I guess I can agree with that tp some degree, but the only one who profits from a believer returning to the customs and precepts of the Law is the devil.
That action removes Christ from the equation of salvation.

James 1:13-14 (NASB)
13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone.
14 But each one is tempted when he is carried away and ENTICED BY HIS OWN LUST.

Acts 3:17-19 (NASB)
17 "And now, brethren, I know that YOU ACTED IN IGNORANCE, just as your rulers did also.
18 "But the things which God announced beforehand by the mouth of all the prophets, that His Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
19 "Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

In the case of the Galatians, it seems it wasn't the devil, or lust, that was capturing them but false teaching playing on their ignorance of, or lack of confidence in, their "in Christ" spiritual position.

Who is it that brings false teachings?
Servants of the devil.
I tend to believe that those who have received the gift of the Holy Ghost cannot be duped by false teachings.
Which puts their "belief" in doubt.

They were not trying to be disobedient to God - quite the reverse - but in their ignorance/lack of confidence were being lured into OT Jewish law-keeping.

While their actins could be viewed that way, with Gal 5:24 in mind..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."...why would they lust to serve God in a way not prescribed by Paul earlier?

When Paul, then, wrote that the Galatian believers had "fallen from grace," he meant only that they had left off the grace-centered dynamic of relating with God for the law-centered dynamic of the Old Covenant and in so doing could not properly benefit from the spiritual liberty and power they had obtained through Christ.

I think it went far deeper than that.
By adopting an OT methodology for salvation, the Galatians totally rescinded all of Paul's teachings in favor of the Judaizers teachings.
It discounted the entire NT...and Paul himself.

By way of analogy: If I have a perfectly good lawnmower in my garage but choose to trim my lawn with a pair of scissors instead, I don't lose my lawnmower, only the benefit it provides in caring for my lawn. So, too, for the Galatian believers. Their attempts to maintain by the flesh the spiritual life and relationship to God that had been given to them in the Spirit cut them off from the benefits they had obtained in/by the Spirit but not from their relationship to God as His children. This is what Paul points out in the beginning of Galatians 3, calling the Galatians foolish for doing so.
Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
So, the Galatians are another example of born-again believers "going off the rails" a bit, demonstrating that spiritual regeneration does not mean sinless perfection and an inability to sin.

I do not equate circumcision, or any other OT custom, with sin.
Just a waste of time and energy.
Col 2 sums up my feelings..."Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ." (Col 2:8)
"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Col 2:14)
"Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?" (Col 2:20-22)
Christians are dead with Christ from the traditions and rudiments of this world.
We don't need them to be one with Christ.
Neither did the Galatians.
So your "example" is a moot point.

Your points were thought provoking though.

 

[gordon777]

When Paul, then, wrote that the Galatian believers had "fallen from grace," he meant only that they had left off the grace-centered dynamic of relating with God for the law-centered dynamic of the Old Covenant and in so doing could not properly benefit from the spiritual liberty and power they had obtained through Christ. By way of analogy: If I have a perfectly good lawnmower in my garage but choose to trim my lawn with a pair of scissors instead, I don't lose my lawnmower, only the benefit it provides in caring for my lawn. So, too, for the Galatian believers. Their attempts to maintain by the flesh the spiritual life and relationship to God that had been given to them in the Spirit cut them off from the benefits they had obtained in/by the Spirit but not from their relationship to God as His children. This is what Paul points out in the beginning of Galatians 3, calling the Galatians foolish for doing so.

So if somebody thinks like Israel thought, before they were cut off by God, that it is OK to be in darkness, to not trust in the name of the Lord to be in light, to instead make a fire and make sparks for their light, and their idea now is, to begin with a way to efficiently cut grass, and to change that, to start practising another way, with scissors, is it them who do the cutting, or them whose way will be cut off ?

Israel had committed two evils through practising these ways, to forsake the Lord, the fountain of living waters, and to choose themselves broken cisterns as better, which can hold no water.







Isaiah 50:10 Who is among you that feareth the Lord, that obeyeth the voice of his servant, that walketh in darkness, and hath no light? let him trust in the name of the Lord, and stay upon his God.
11 Behold, all ye that kindle a fire, that compass yourselves about with sparks: walk in the light of your fire, and in the sparks that ye have kindled. This shall ye have of mine hand; ye shall lie down in sorrow.

Jeremiah 2:11 Hath a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which doth not profit.
12 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the Lord.
13 For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.




Now, consider the Galatians. All, like Israel, were in bondage under those elements of the world, which was without knowing the Lord, who is light and that fountain of living waters. Of course the Galatians are only men the same as Israel, and they likewise turned again to those beggarly elements to again be in bondage.





Galatians 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?





Galatians 5, is direct instruction for other Galatians, to stand fast in the liberty of Christ making us free, and to not be entangled again in bondage, because if they do any of the law ( as other Galatians were observing times) they are debtors to do the whole law also, as they are seeking to be justified by law, and that is falling from grace.

For those Galatians who ceased to obey the truth ( changed their practise, like Israel to choose broken cisterns, and others to use scissors) the answer is that the whole lump is leavened.....




Galatians 5;1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?
8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.
9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.




Romans tells more, about the Galatians, and anyone who does that same practise of turning again to bondage, and how other Galatians were to instead stand fast and not turn again to bondage, as some had done. That the Spirit we receive is not of bondage again to fear, but the Spirit of adoption, and the creature ( when stedfast) is delivered from the bondage of corruption, into the liberty of the children of God.

Now, others have spoken ( their great swelling words of vanity) promising liberty while they are these same sewrvants of corruption. ( they excuse what the Galatians did as them being born again and not in fatal error of denial of Christ.) but the truth tells us, of whom a man is overcome ( the Galatians were overcome to turn again to bondage) of the same is he brought into bondage.

But, just like the grace fault of the Galatians, they had escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,, and became entangled again ( in bondage) and they turned from the Holy commandment delivered to them, and was better they had never done that wickedness, they are turning to their own vomit, and it can only be the same judgement for the Galatians, to be better they had never known the way of righteousness, than to turn from it to vomit.







Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Romans 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


2 Peter 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

 

[Tenchi]

Reading your quote the first words are, IF ANYONE cleans themselves, as clearly it is not Timothy that is in concern, but all around him, who Paul and then Timothy, needed to exhort to become vessels of honour.

There is no reason to exempt Timothy, the recipient of Paul's letter, from Paul's words. "Anyone" is a term universal in its meaning, necessarily including Timothy. This universal term is used without any qualifying statement like, "Except you, Timothy."

2 Timothy 1:1-2 (NASB)
1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life in Christ Jesus,
2 To Timothy, my beloved son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

Yes, Timothy would relay Paul's words to those in Timothy's spiritual care, but he would do so as one under the authority of Paul's words, too. Timothy was the first one Paul expected to take to heart what he was writing. Nowhere in his letter does Paul ever suggest that Timothy was above, or entirely exempt from, the contents of his letter.

Thew beginning of chapter 2, of second Timothy confirms exactly this, of these things that Timothy is hearing about Paul, for Timothy to commit to faithful men, who shall teach others.

But Timothy would have to be a hearer and doer of Paul's teaching before he could properly pass on that teaching to others. He would have to understand and implement in his own life all that Paul was writing to him in the two letters Paul sent to him. Again, there is nowhere in Paul's letters where Paul indicates that Timothy was entirely exempt from what Paul was writing. And, of course, the command Paul gives to Timothy to "commit to faithful men" Paul's teaching was TO Timothy, not anyone else.

Either the message to be sanctified and a vessel of honour, is to Timothy, to become this, or for Timothy to pass on to others, as we read is the instruction given already in 1 Timothy, for him to put the brothers in remembrance, and for Timothy to teach others.

What you propose here is what is known as a false dichotomy. You offer two options as though they are the only two
that are possible. But it is obvious that Paul's words are of the both-and sort, not either-or. Timothy was both to heed and obey Pau's teaching in his letters and also to pass them on to others. Here, then, is an entirely legitimate third option that confounds the false dichotomy you've asserted.

On top of that, how can Timothy, not be a vessel of honour, and go and teach others ?



Christ would be a minister of sin, if we are sinners and go and preach to others to not commit sins, and to love our neighbour as ourselves. So it is impossible for Timothy to be an approved minister of Christ, and to be instructed by Apostle Paul to go and teach others, if he is not a sincere believer in the risen Lord Jesus Christ, and is a vessel meet for Gods use of our preaching the Word of the Gospel to others.

Here's another false dichotomy: Either Timothy is not a sincere believer who is a "vessel sanctified and meet for the Master's use," or he is. This dichotomy doesn't admit to the reality that every believer is a "work in progress," over time becoming more and more like Jesus. But as I already pointed out in this thread, growth language is used all throughout the NT, indicating a process of change that every believer undergoes, rather than an instantaneous and fully-complete transformation of their practical, daily living. And that process never ends. At what point, then, in the continuum of growth must Timothy be at, exactly, before he is qualified to teach others? Paul tells him in his first letter to Timothy (1 Timothy 3:1-7) but doesn't make sinless perfection that standard, only spiritual maturity (ie. "not a novice").

Your reasoning sadly, is upside down, as it is not in line with the truth of the Gospel, but is opposing its righteousness.

Brother, it is you whose notions are "upside-down." See above. I'm not opposing righteousness in the slightest but simply acknowledging what Scripture itself acknowledges: Though one is spiritually fully sanctified in Christ, sanctification of one's daily living, of one's practical condition, is a process.

Paul's words to Timothy clearly spell out this two-tiered reality, Paul telling Timothy to cleanse himself who was a born-again believer and Paul's spiritual protege. As a born-again person, Timothy was already fully-sanctified in Christ. Why, then, does Paul tell Timothy to cleanse himself? Well, while Timothy is perfectly sanctified in Christ, it remains for Timothy to manifest this spiritual reality in his daily living more and more, which is a lifelong process. A boy growing into manhood is fundamentally male, possessing in an undeveloped condition all the necessary features of an adult male. The boy will be no more male, though, at 35 than he is at 7, though the manifestation of his maleness will change over time, his body increasingly evidencing his innate maleness in a variety of ways. That the boy at 7 does not look or act like he will at 35 does not mean he is any less fundamentally male at 7. Really, it's only because he is fully male as a boy that he can grow into the man he'll be at 35. So, too, the child of God. He is at year-one of his walk with God fully in possession of all of the life of the Holy Spirit that he can possess, fully spiritually sanctified, and justified, and indwelt by the Spirit (1 Corinthians 1:30). And it is only because this is so that he can progress through the ensuing years from a "carnal babe in Christ" (1 Corinthian 3:1) to "a mature man" (Ephesians 4:13) becoming spiritually strong, stable, holy and wise as time passes.

Ephesians 4:13-15 (NASB)
13 until WE ALL ATTAIN to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, TO A MATURE MAN, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, WE ARE TO NO LONGER BE CHILDREN, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, WE ARE TO GROW UP in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

 

[Tenchi]

Ephesians 4:13-15 (NASB)

13 until WE ALL ATTAIN to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, TO A MATURE MAN, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
14 As a result, WE ARE TO NO LONGER BE CHILDREN, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;
15 but speaking the truth in love, WE ARE TO GROW UP in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ,

gordon777 wrote:

"God forbid, is exactly what that says, for God to forbid such a thing, more than it should not be, but that it will not be."

Well, you say this but don't offer any rationale for what you've said. Why should I accept your statement as true merely because you've said so? You're going to have to justify your assertion here, not just throw it out as a given. We know Paul was using the "it should not be" sense of the exclamation because he goes on to talk to the believers at Rome about their doing the very thing his "God forbid" forbad. Paul wrote, "Don't you know...?" clearly implying that if they had, their behavior ought to have reflected that knowledge. Instead, the believers at Rome were "continuing in sin that grace may abound." And so, Paul spent the chapter explaining to the believers at Rome, not that their sin showed they weren't saved, but that their sin was incongruent with their union with Christ. In light of this incongruity, Paul didn't tell the believers at Rome to get saved but to, by faith, count on their already being "dead unto sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ" (Romans 6:11). In light of these things, it's impossible to conclude as you have that Paul's "God forbid" exclamation was an "it will not be" sort of exclamation.

gordon777 wrote:

"On top of that, to consider that a born again believer can do evil, is to deny and be gravely unaware of the power of God to stop that man from doing evil again. See your confusion yet again...."


2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Jude 24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

I don't deny in the least God's power to increasingly free a man from sinful conduct. Paul talks at length about this very thing in Romans 6 and I believe every word he wrote. But Romans 6 (and Romans 7, also) clearly indicates that it is possible for a believer to both be "in Christ" and all that means and be mired in sin, too. Acknowledging this doesn't diminish God or the need for holiness in walking with Him; it only acknowledges what Scripture itself teaches.

Jude 24-25 is a passage I memorized many years ago and that I quote often to myself and others. But it doesn't stand alone. It isn't the final or sole word on spiritual matters. No, this passage is qualified and clarified by the many verses and passages I've already offered in this thread that deny the sinlessly-perfect construction you are attempting to put on verses and passages like Jude 24-25.

gordon777 wrote:

"Again you are missing/ignoring the point made in the chapter.

For Timothy to be in meekness instructing others, has to be able to teach. Including youthful lusts. That is being the vessel to honour, purged, otherwise how can Timothy, or anyone instruct others to recover out of the snare of the devil ( when they are dishonourable and not purged) if they themselves are not purged first ?"

See response in following post.

 

[Tenchi]

Yes, Timothy ought not to have taught on things about which he was not personally familiar and living out in his own life. But where does Paul tell Timothy that he had to be perfectly sinless and incapable of sin before he could teach others about God's life-transforming truth? This is a standard you're imposing on Paul's words to Timothy, not drawing out of them. And besides, if an atheist can give me a perfect rendering of the Gospel, quoting accurately from memory a multitude of verses explaining the Gospel fully, is what he is telling me false because he is doing so as an atheist? Obviously not. The Gospel is true and life-saving even if an atheist is declaring it. So, too, with all of God's truth. It doesn't rely on the content of the life of the one speaking it for its power and truth. And thank God this is so because no one ever speaks His truth from a life that, in its practical character, is perfectly free from sin.


1 John 1:8-10 (NASB)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

Galatians 5:17 (NASB)
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

Romans 7:15-19 (NASB)
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.

gordon777 wrote:

"You just have to pay attention to my answers for you, as you are only discrediting yourself in regards to knowledge of the scriptures, as I keep providing for you, constantly, and will do."

Actually, brother, I think the exact opposite is occurring. It is you who is increasingly being revealed as ignorant of God's truth and careless in its handling. You offer to me Bible passages, as though they say what you assume they must say, but I don't operate under your assumptions when I deal with God's word. As a result, you're going to have to make a reasoned argument that justifies your reading, not that just asserts your reading.

gordon777 wrote:

"Clearly ( and unfortunately for your doctrinal ideas) Timothy ( as always) is approved and reasoned by Paul, to be an example of the believers, in charity, Spirit and purity."

Brother, why was Paul writing anything to Timothy? If Timothy already knew everything Paul had to tell him in the two letters Paul sent to Timothy, why was Paul writing to him? Well, obviously, because Timothy didn't know, or wasn't doing, those things Paul put into his letter. And so, Paul instructed Timothy to cleanse himself from sinful impurities, to pray often, lifting up holy hands, without wrath or dissension, to have nothing to do with worldly fables fit for old women, to not let others look down on his youthfulness, to not neglect the spiritual gift he was given, etc. Clearly, Timothy had a long way yet to go in becoming the man God would make of him. And this Paul acknowledges:

1 Timothy 4:14-15 (NASB)
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that YOUR PROGRESS will be evident to all.

Progress? What progress could a person who is sinlessly perfect and incapable of sin make in their life spiritually? What need they of teaching? They've arrived spiritually, haven't they? But here's Paul telling another born-again believer that he has progress to make spiritually. Interesting, no?

gordon777 wrote:

"Stop choosing two ways, as Christ is singular, and better balanced than being double minded and unstable in all of our ways and thoughts. read carefully....."

Brother, you have no idea whatever of the content of my life. None. So, please, don't presume to tell me I'm double-minded and unstable. Goodness.

gordon777 wrote:

"It is the new heart, the new Spirit, the mind of Christ, these things are without blemish."

This isn't what Peter wrote. It simply isn't. See my comments on the passage in question, which nothing you assert here counter or refute. I have made a long explanation as to why what you simply state here as true, without a supporting rationale, can't be. But do you actually deal with I wrote? Nope. You ignore it all and make an assertion that I'm supposed to accept just because you've made it. Brother, this is becoming quite tedious.

gordon777 wrote:

"A new heart given, a new Spirit, which purifies even their soul in obeying the truth through the Spirit, to give unfeigned love of the brothers. Any blemish/evil hateful act, would be contrary to purity of heart. It also is a sign of no faith."

But none of this means a person hasn't been saved. As I've explained pretty thoroughly already.

gordon777 wrote:

quoting Tenchi: "that is enduring, and without blemish, and that awaits the child of God in heaven."

"To be without blemish is now, as this is what requires preparation to be presented correctly to God ( the church) to be holy, and to be without spot and without blemish."

This isn't what Peter wrote. He wrote of an inheritance "reserved in heaven for you." Do you see the word "reserved"? Do you see the word "heaven"? Both words defy what you've written above. What need is there to "reserve in heaven" what is already possessed by the believer while they live on earth?

 

[Tenchi]

gordon777 wrote:

"Which can only be done through belief, in the precious blood of Christ, without blemish or spot...

Ephesians 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

1 Peter 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

2 Peter 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;"

You appear to be linking together verses in which the word "blemish" appears as though the word is always referring to the same thing. But the verse from Ephesians is speaking of the Church, the verse from 1 Peter is speaking of Christ, and the verse from 2 Peter is speaking of false teachers. How do these verses together help your case any? They can't; they're all referring to different things in regards to the word "blemish." Yikes. Who has taught you how to handle God's word?

gordon777 wrote:

"You are like someone putting their hands over their eyes and over their ears, so you wont see anything but what you wish."

Do you know what transference is, or mirroring? It's what you're doing here, I think: Accusing me of the very thing that you're doing.

gordon777 wrote:

"The quotes you give above, are not born again, as born again shows they are without commiting sin, and where all old is passed away. Try showing born again ( the actual words) and them sinning again ( but you cant, as these are the only way told for you below in scripture)..


John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2 Corinthians 517 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not."

I don't know what to tell you, gordon777. You have a confused notion in your head to which you're obviously very committed and don't seem able to understand God's word or my own properly. Increasingly, it looks like nothing I can explain to you will be able to help you see things correctly. Ah, well. You can lead a horse to water...

Why would verses that are describing the new spiritual birth and the spiritual effects of that birth refer to something else like sin? Does a man describing how well trained his dog is do so by discussing the moments when his dog eats his slippers, or pees on the carpet, or snatches food from the table? Of course not. But this doesn't mean the man's well-trained dog doesn't do these things, too. My point is that it doesn't follow that, when verses or passages speaking of spiritual birth don't mention sin, it means that sin has been utterly eradicated from those who've had a second, spiritual birth. That's just plain silly.

gordon777 wrote:

"When children of the devil are tempted by lust, they, as originally told in the Gospel, are doing the lusts of the devil ( their father.)"

So? What did James write? That's what I was talking about. And James wrote: "Every man is drawn away OF HIS OWN LUST and enticed..." If that lust finds an echo in the devil, so be it. But what James wrote doesn't say this.

 

[D-D-W]

I don't think that Paul continued to avoid meat from strangled animals. The Apostles were in the process of understanding what should and should not be done as True Christians. It took a while for them to get things figured out.

You "... don't think that Paul ... " Actually Paul kept the Law as a good Jew. As noted in Acts 21, the Acts 15 accord ONLY applied to Gentile believers.

Acts 21:20
And when they heard it they began glorifying God; and they said to him, “You see, brother, how many thousands there are among the Jews of those who have believed, and they are all zealous for the Law; 21 and they have been told about you, that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs. 22 What, then, is to be done? They will certainly hear that you have come. 23 Therefore do this that we tell you. We have four men who are under a vow; 24 take them and purify yourself along with them, and pay their expenses so that they may shave their heads; and all will know that there is nothing to the things which they have been told about you, but that you yourself also walk orderly, keeping the Law.

IF Paul ever thought that the doing away with Torah observance applied to Jewish believers in Jesus, here was the opportune moment to say so. He (by his actions) said the exact opposite; and since Paul was not a man to back down from any fight - even one with Peter - he was not making any mistake or backing down here.

Yes - I get that such a position may come as a shock to the doctrinal system of most Christian believers. But it is right there in scripture.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

You don't think.

Ok. And so I stopped reading your post after I read the above.

That said, I hope you have a great day . . . filled with many wonderful thoughts!

 

[D-D-W]

Ok. And so I stopped reading your post after I read the above.

OK, when that got posted I re-read it and it came off as harsh. For that I apologize.

SO I went back and edited it to more clearly say what I was thinking which was actually quoting from your post. Your response was before I changed that line. I also edited again to add the last paragraph.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

OK, when that got posted I re-read it and it came off as harsh. For that I apologize.

Isn't that ironic . . . that you would accuse me of not thinking?

Have a great day! :biggrin

 

[D-D-W]

Isn't that ironic . . . that you would accuse me of not thinking?

Have a great day! :biggrin

As I said, I was quoting from your own statement. You wrote: "I don't think that Paul continued to avoid meat from strangled animals."

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

As I said, I was quoting from your own statement: "I don't think that Paul continued to avoid meat from strangled animals."

That's garbage. You didn't quote me, you formulated your own thought when you said, "You don't think." That's not a quote, Mr. Elder.

Get yourself together.

 

[gordon777]

Do, two people debating, think either one has anything right to share ?


Look, all you have to do is show verses, the debates are strife, which does not please God, it pleases the opposite.


Paul walked orderly to keep the law.

We also do likewise, that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, to walk after the Spirit. ( not the flesh)

We have to attain to the righteousness which is of faith, not ass Israel ( or anyone teaching as if Apostle Paul did just like Israel) following after the law of righteousness, but not attaining to the law of righteousness, through following by the works of the law. We seek by faith, to not stumble at that stumblingstone, as whosoever believed on Christ, shall not be ashamed.

Israel is the example of being ignorant of Gods righteousness ( the righteousness of the law is through belief in Christ, and the law of Christ is bearing one another burdens. Galatians 6:2.) we only submit ourselves to the righteousness of God( the belief in the rising of Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour.) for Christ is the end of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes.

Now Apostle Paul sums it up, that he was found in Christ, not having his own righteousness which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith, to know Christ and the power of His resurrection ( nothing to do with knowing the law, as that is knowing death.) and the fellowship of His sufferings, being made conformable to His death. ( not the death in the law, so that we can live with Him, by the resurrection of the dead.)




Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Philippians 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

 

[D-D-W]

Paul walked orderly to keep the law.

Yes. Remember the 3 important things of scriptural understanding: Context Context and Context.

You can quote all kinds of things Paul wrote AFTER that encounter with James. But remember, in context it was JAMES who asked the question. What did JAMES mean by it? What we think it means does not matter.

It is quite evident that our Lord's earthly brother meant keeping the Law of Moses.

 

[Tenchi]

Yes. Remember the 3 important things of scriptural understanding: Context Context and Context.

Amen. Preach it, brother!

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

Amen. Preach it, brother!

The problem is, is that few understand the context of the Bible. That's right . . . the entire Bible.

 

[D-D-W]

The problem is, is that few understand the context of the Bible. That's right . . . the entire Bible.

True. There are MANY factors in computing context. One frequently left out is the language and culture of both the writer and the original audience.

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

One frequently left out is the language and culture of both the writer and the original audience.

That's interesting, as I don't pay attention to such details when recognizing the Gospel (the context of the entire Bible), particularly in the Old Testament. Why? Because the Gospel transcends culture and language.

Galatians 3:28 CSB - "There is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male and female; since you are all one in Christ Jesus."

What Paul was hinting at above . . . that is the Gospel, and that is the context of the entire Bible. The context of the entire Bible answers why there is no Jew or Greek, slave or free, male or female in Christ.

 

[Tenchi]

Do, two people debating, think either one has anything right to share ?


Look, all you have to do is show verses,

What does this mean? You've shown many verses about which you're understanding has been pretty consistently in error.

Paul walked orderly to keep the law.

??? Paul wrote:

Romans 8:1-4 (NASB)
1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death.
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

What was the "law of sin and death"? Paul had already explained:

Romans 7:5-6 (NASB)
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

The Law of God given to Moses served to arouse the sinful passions of those "in the flesh," that is, those in whom the Spirit did not dwell (Romans 8:5-8), bringing them under God's judgment and wrath. As a result, the Law ("weak as it was through the flesh") generally produced condemnation and death (the wages of sin is death - Romans 6:23) rather than life and holiness. But Paul writes that the born-again believer has been "released from the Law," having died with Christ (Romans 6:1-11), freed thereby to live and serve God in the "newness of the Spirit" (the "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus") rather than by legalistic law-keeping. Clearly, Paul did not "walk orderly to keep the law." As he wrote, he had been "released from the Law."

Now, for every believer, it is possible to fulfill the righteousness of the Law through the Spirit without fleshly legalism and law-keeping. How? Well, all of the Law of God resolves down to one First and Great commandment:

Matthew 22:36-38 (NASB)
36 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?"
37 And He said to him, " 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 "This is the great and foremost commandment.

In the Person of the Holy Spirit, the "love of God has been shed abroad in our hearts." (Romans 5:5) In him, we obtain the wherewithal to obey the First and Great Commandment and so fulfill the law of God, entirely apart from law-keeping.

Galatians 3:1-3 (NASB)
1 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?
2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?

Is a person born-again, which is to say, indwelt by the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5; 1 John 3:14; Romans 8:9-14; John 14:16-17), by "the works of the Law"? Absolutely not, as Paul repeatedly explained (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5). As Paul points out above, having begun by faith, and in the Spirit, entirely apart from law-keeping, it is foolishness for a born-again person to think that they must proceed from the moment of their conversion by fleshly attendance to the Law, which had no power whatever to save them. How, then, can one say that Paul "walked orderly to keep the law"? He was a righteous man, yes; but as a consequence of the life and work of the Spirit in him, not because he was careful to obey the Law of Moses.

Galatians 3:10-14 (NASB)
10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."
11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."
12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"—
14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

In this passage, Paul points out that the one operating under the jurisdiction of the Law does so as one who is cursed. The curse is the result of the human person's utter inability to perfectly keep the Law of God. And so, no one can be justified before God by the Law. Instead, it is by faith in Christ Jesus and being clothed in his righteousness, "baptized" into him by the Holy Spirit, by which a person is made acceptable to God. The Law is God's curse upon sinful humanity, as Paul indicated above, from which all may be free through faith in the One who hung on a tree in atonement for our sins. In light of what Paul wrote here, it's quite impossible to say he was "walking orderly to keep the law." Life in the Spirit was his preoccupation, not law-keeping.

Romans 7:1-6 (NASB)
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

Those who are in Christ were crucified with him (Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24; Romans 6:1-11; Colossians 3:1-3) and thus made "dead" to the Law, released from it entirely, from its condemnation and death-bringing power, so that the born-again believer may walk in "newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter." Hallelujah! "There is, therefore, no condemnation to them who are in Christ Jesus."

 

[Tenchi]

We have to attain to the righteousness which is of faith, not ass Israel ( or anyone teaching as if Apostle Paul did just like Israel) following after the law of righteousness, but not attaining to the law of righteousness, through following by the works of the law. We seek by faith, to not stumble at that stumblingstone, as whosoever believed on Christ, shall not be ashamed.

Right, born-again believers "walk by faith, not by sight" (2 Corinthians 5:7). As they do, filled with the Spirit, they manifest his righteousness, the righteousness of Christ. But this is the effect, not of law-keeping, but of yielding to the Spirit at every turn and so being filled with, and transformed by, him into the image of Christ (Romans 6:13-22; Romans 8:14; Romans 12:1; James 4:6-10; 1 Peter 5:6; Galatians 5:22-23).