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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Are the 144,000 Christian?
- Thread starter guysmith
- Start date
NJBeliever said:
If you continue with what 'new song' it is they sing into Rev.15, that gives a bit more...
Rev 15:2-3
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints.
(KJV)
For those who remain in Christ all the way to end, our slate is wiped clean, Christ covering our sin. That's the only way any man could become without fault before God's Throne, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. To remain standing in Christ when He comes, means still being found a spiritual virgin ready for the Wedding. These remain in Christ through the period the beast sets up his image for all to worship. So definitely, the sealing of Rev.7 is so they might make that stand against the beast during the tribulation.
The second group of Rev.7:9 forward is about Gentiles that also make that stand, and will have come out of great tribulation and made their robes white through Christ. Both groups go through the tribulation, for that's the time period of what God's sealing is for. It means either the sections of Scripture about their appearing in Heaven is either because they were killed during the tribulation, or, that's a future forward look after Christ's coming.
Don't forget that the Heavenly is going to be revealed on the earth when Christ comes and all are changed at the "last trump". There's several OT references about it, Isaiah 25 being only one of them.
Adullam said:
Remember Rom.11 where Paul showed God had reserved a remnant of Israel unto Himself, and Paul said that remnant still existed in his day? Rev.7 with the 144,000 is showing that remnant in the end. When God promised to gather both believing Israel and believing Gentiles per the Book of Isaiah, that's what He meant. Both groups are of Faith and are one, and Paul called it the "commonwealth of Israel" in Ephesians 2:12. In Rev.20:9 with the "camp of the saints", that's who will be there. Israel is a Salvation word and not just a name for a flesh seed, for it means those who overcome with God's help. If you read 'between the lines' in the OT it has always pointed to a spiritual Israel concept to include all that are of Faith, starting with Abraham.
But I really don't know where ideas that the seed of Israel is no longer important comes from, except maybe from a selective interpretation of Romans 9 about the spiritual Israel idea. Those born of Israel didn't just stop being Israelites by believing on Christ Jesus. They are both flesh Israel and part of spiritual Israel at the same time.
And... there actually are 13 tribes of Israel, since Ephraim and Manasseh both continued in God's Birthright per 1 Chron.5, where it still exists today, because it's nowhere written that it changed from their hands.
NJBeliever
Member
veteran said:
Well I don't think the group singing who overcame by not taking the Mark are the same as the 144,000.
I think that again, we have to look to the 144,000 being "firstfruits" and redeemed of the Earth. That is
what in my mind means they are just not regular people. They have to be glorified. Otherwise the Scripture makes no sense.
GodspromisesRyes
Member
i agree that there are TWO groups of 144,000. One is of the tribes. The other are those redeemed from AMOUNG MEN.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
From amoung men is alot differnt than from amoung the tribes. these are described totally differntly except the number. I fully believe the bible shows the rev 14 ones to be the firstfruits in the end times from the church. and the others are the firstfruits of the jews who come to Christ mid trib.
Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: [and there were] sealed an hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Rev 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, [being] the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
From amoung men is alot differnt than from amoung the tribes. these are described totally differntly except the number. I fully believe the bible shows the rev 14 ones to be the firstfruits in the end times from the church. and the others are the firstfruits of the jews who come to Christ mid trib.
NJBeliever
Member
GodspromisesRyes said:
But again, to be redeemed and blameless in Heaven means you have been glorified. Is this what you believe the Rev 14, 144,000 to be?
Don't forget what Paul taught in Romans 8 about the predestinated who have already been justified and... glorified. That means the elect.
Anyway, I lean towards the view that the 144,000 on Zion with Christ is a forward look after Christ's coming. I think those shown in Rev.20:4 is another link to both groups of Rev.7.
Anyway, I lean towards the view that the 144,000 on Zion with Christ is a forward look after Christ's coming. I think those shown in Rev.20:4 is another link to both groups of Rev.7.
jasoncran said:
Well, I'm not a JW, so I really don't know how you mean that.
If you refer to what Paul said in Romans 8 about the idea of and elect and predestination, I'm not a Calvinist either.
As for the 144,000 being on mount Zion (Sion is the Greek form) with Christ, doesn't that show rewards already being handed out, and those reigning with Christ?
I must disagree with much in the previous posts.
When John first mentions the 144,000 he gives us a good discription, so we KNOW what he is talking about. When they are mentioned again, in Chapter 14, John assumes the reader will immediately link their thoughts to the first mention of this group. Any good writer would assume this.
When Jesus was called "the firstfruits of them that slept" we understand that He was the very first human to rise from the dead with a resurrection body. But with that title, firstfruits, is the connotation that there will be a second, and third, and so on. Firstfruits in the old covenant was the farming picking a few of the first ripened fruit and/or grain. With those firstfruits is the expectation of a full harvest later.
It is the same with these 144,000. God has said that there will be a remnant of the Hebrews saved. The 144,000 are only the firstfruits of those.
When a verse or verses in Revelation make perfect sense in a literal sense, it is a BIG mistake to look for some other or hidden meaning. That only leads to nonsense. John was very clear that these are Hebrews, of the descendants of Abraham and Jacob, 12,000 from each tribe. Since other scriptures tell us that Jesus is the ONLY doorway to heaven, and no one will get there without being born agaiin, we can be sure that these are born again people.
Next, notice WHERE they are sealed:
Rev. 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
We see that they are sealed in their forehead. We see the same thing here, but now we know more about the seal:
Revelation 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Of course John is telling us in many ways that these are the SAME 144,000, but now, are in heaven. So the term "firstfruits" had real meaning - they got to heaven BEFORE their brethern that will flee into the wilderness. HOW did they get to heaven? John does not tell us. But is seems obvious that they were RAPTURED. There is no hint that they were killed. John does give us a GOOD hint that the sealing was for their protection during the trumpet judgements.
Therefore, I conclude that the 144,000 in Rev. 14 is the same group as in chapter 7, but have been raptured out of the 70th week, to heaven. John writes, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." There can be no doubt that they know who this "Lamb" is, and that they believed in Him as their savior to even enter into heaven. They are "virgins," not because they have never been with a woman, but because they have never whored after strange or false gods. (Unlike many of their ancestors.)
Coop
When John first mentions the 144,000 he gives us a good discription, so we KNOW what he is talking about. When they are mentioned again, in Chapter 14, John assumes the reader will immediately link their thoughts to the first mention of this group. Any good writer would assume this.
When Jesus was called "the firstfruits of them that slept" we understand that He was the very first human to rise from the dead with a resurrection body. But with that title, firstfruits, is the connotation that there will be a second, and third, and so on. Firstfruits in the old covenant was the farming picking a few of the first ripened fruit and/or grain. With those firstfruits is the expectation of a full harvest later.
It is the same with these 144,000. God has said that there will be a remnant of the Hebrews saved. The 144,000 are only the firstfruits of those.
When a verse or verses in Revelation make perfect sense in a literal sense, it is a BIG mistake to look for some other or hidden meaning. That only leads to nonsense. John was very clear that these are Hebrews, of the descendants of Abraham and Jacob, 12,000 from each tribe. Since other scriptures tell us that Jesus is the ONLY doorway to heaven, and no one will get there without being born agaiin, we can be sure that these are born again people.
Next, notice WHERE they are sealed:
Rev. 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
We see that they are sealed in their forehead. We see the same thing here, but now we know more about the seal:
Revelation 14
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
Of course John is telling us in many ways that these are the SAME 144,000, but now, are in heaven. So the term "firstfruits" had real meaning - they got to heaven BEFORE their brethern that will flee into the wilderness. HOW did they get to heaven? John does not tell us. But is seems obvious that they were RAPTURED. There is no hint that they were killed. John does give us a GOOD hint that the sealing was for their protection during the trumpet judgements.
Therefore, I conclude that the 144,000 in Rev. 14 is the same group as in chapter 7, but have been raptured out of the 70th week, to heaven. John writes, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." There can be no doubt that they know who this "Lamb" is, and that they believed in Him as their savior to even enter into heaven. They are "virgins," not because they have never been with a woman, but because they have never whored after strange or false gods. (Unlike many of their ancestors.)
Coop
faithtransforms
Member
guysmith said:
I'm surprised this is even a question. Of course the 144k are jews. I believe in Revelation it even names off each tribe that each 12,000 will come from.
faithtransforms
Member
Revelation 7:
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed : and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
I find it hard to believe this is allegorical. I can't see any reason to speculate that they are using the tribes of Israel to reference Christians.
4And I heard the number of them which were sealed : and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
5 Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
6 Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
7 Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
8 Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
I find it hard to believe this is allegorical. I can't see any reason to speculate that they are using the tribes of Israel to reference Christians.
faithtransforms
Member
Oh ok. I think I see what you are saying. Yes, they are Jews, and they are witnesses of the Messiah, so yeah, they've got to be Christian although some Christian Jews prefer to call themselves Messianic Jews. And of course, they are saved (referring to your other thread).
Shilohsfoal
Member
I believe these 144,000 are what the scripture would call the chosen people.
If you have ever read the song of Moses ,you might understand where im coming from as well as understand what they go through.I dont think the king of Egypt will allow these to go into the wilderness when the woman flees.These keep the comandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.The beast will make war with them.
And yes.They are Israelites.
If you have ever read the song of Moses ,you might understand where im coming from as well as understand what they go through.I dont think the king of Egypt will allow these to go into the wilderness when the woman flees.These keep the comandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.The beast will make war with them.
And yes.They are Israelites.
Cannot properly understand about the 144,000 of Rev.7 without going back to OT history. No offense, but I don't see many here bothering to do that.
Many Jews today like to claim that anyone of Israelite birth is a Jew, but that's not accurate per The Bible and history.
Here's what the Jewish historian Josephus said on the matter. Notice especially the last sentence:
"You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in mind continually; and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed, he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the king to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. (170) I desire you, therefore, who well know the will our neighboring nations bear to us, and that when once they are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, (171) that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God, as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day, but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it." (172) When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities, as everyone's ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. (173) So the Jews prepared for the work: that is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon, which is taken from the tribe of Judah, which came first to these places, and thence both they and the country gained that appellation." (The Antiquities of The Jews, The Works of Josephus translated by William Whiston (1667-1752), (Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, MA,1987), Book 11/ Chapter 5, p.297.)
Ezra recorded just which tribes the remnant came from that returned to Jerusalem to build the second temple:
Ezra 1:3-5
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
(KJV)
Does anyone see the tribes of Gad, Issachar, Naphtali, Simeon, Asher, Joseph, Zebulun, Manasseh, Reuben mentioned there by Ezra? The reason they're not included is because these were scattered by God out of the holy land first, captive to the land of the Medes, a whole separate captivity than the later Babylon captivity of the "house of Judah".
The Jews (house of Judah) NEVER lost their heritage as PART of Israel, even while they were scattered, also as it is today. Still the truth is, the Jews are only one part of the original seed of all Israel, those other ten tribes of the "house of Israel" that are still lost today actually made up the majority part.
If a Messianic Jew will ask their pastor about these other ten tribes, the answer will usually be either one of two things. 1) that the ten tribes are lost today, and no longer exist, and only Jews now are flesh Israel or 2) that the ten tribes are lost, make up a great number of people today, and will be gathered along with Judah in final by Christ. God's Word unanimously supports the second answer.
So most likely, ALL those 144,000 of Rev.7 are Christians. But only 3 of those tribes make up those who call themselves Jews, which means they are descended either from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, or Levi. Don't confuse the word Jew with all Israel, because it was a distinct name for only a part of the original twelve tribes, specifically for Judah, Benjamin, and Levi after the kingdom split (1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17). The Jews were also called the "house of Judah" in God's Word after the split.
Many Jews today like to claim that anyone of Israelite birth is a Jew, but that's not accurate per The Bible and history.
Here's what the Jewish historian Josephus said on the matter. Notice especially the last sentence:
"You know, O Jews, that God hath kept our fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in mind continually; and for the sake of their righteousness hath not left off the care of you. Indeed, he hath assisted me in gaining this authority of the king to raise up our wall, and finish what is wanting of the temple. (170) I desire you, therefore, who well know the will our neighboring nations bear to us, and that when once they are made sensible that we are in earnest about building, they will come upon us and contrive many ways of obstructing our works, (171) that you will, in the first place, put your trust in God, as in him that will assist us against their hatred, and to intermit building neither night nor day, but to use all diligence, and to hasten on the work, now we have this especial opportunity for it." (172) When he had said this, he gave order that the rulers should measure the wall, and part the work of it among the people, according to their villages and cities, as everyone's ability should require. And when he had added this promise, that he himself, with his servants, would assist them, he dissolved the assembly. (173) So the Jews prepared for the work: that is the name they are called by from the day that they came up from Babylon, which is taken from the tribe of Judah, which came first to these places, and thence both they and the country gained that appellation." (The Antiquities of The Jews, The Works of Josephus translated by William Whiston (1667-1752), (Hendrickson Publishers, Peabody, MA,1987), Book 11/ Chapter 5, p.297.)
Ezra recorded just which tribes the remnant came from that returned to Jerusalem to build the second temple:
Ezra 1:3-5
3 Who is there among you of all his people? his God be with him, and let him go up to Jerusalem, which is in Judah, and build the house of the LORD God of Israel, (he is the God,) which is in Jerusalem.
4 And whosoever remaineth in any place where he sojourneth, let the men of his place help him with silver, and with gold, and with goods, and with beasts, beside the freewill offering for the house of God that is in Jerusalem.
5 Then rose up the chief of the fathers of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests, and the Levites, with all them whose spirit God had raised, to go up to build the house of the LORD which is in Jerusalem.
(KJV)
Does anyone see the tribes of Gad, Issachar, Naphtali, Simeon, Asher, Joseph, Zebulun, Manasseh, Reuben mentioned there by Ezra? The reason they're not included is because these were scattered by God out of the holy land first, captive to the land of the Medes, a whole separate captivity than the later Babylon captivity of the "house of Judah".
The Jews (house of Judah) NEVER lost their heritage as PART of Israel, even while they were scattered, also as it is today. Still the truth is, the Jews are only one part of the original seed of all Israel, those other ten tribes of the "house of Israel" that are still lost today actually made up the majority part.
If a Messianic Jew will ask their pastor about these other ten tribes, the answer will usually be either one of two things. 1) that the ten tribes are lost today, and no longer exist, and only Jews now are flesh Israel or 2) that the ten tribes are lost, make up a great number of people today, and will be gathered along with Judah in final by Christ. God's Word unanimously supports the second answer.
So most likely, ALL those 144,000 of Rev.7 are Christians. But only 3 of those tribes make up those who call themselves Jews, which means they are descended either from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, or Levi. Don't confuse the word Jew with all Israel, because it was a distinct name for only a part of the original twelve tribes, specifically for Judah, Benjamin, and Levi after the kingdom split (1 Kings 11 through 2 Kings 17). The Jews were also called the "house of Judah" in God's Word after the split.
guysmith said:
I said that they were raptured to heaven. I wrote this: "John writes, "These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth." There can be no doubt that they know who this "Lamb" is, and that they believed in Him as their savior to even enter into heaven."
Jesus said, that to see the kingdom of God one must be born again. Therefore, there is no question that these 144,000 are indeed, born again, born of the Spirit, and must certainly know Christ - since He IS the doorway to heaven. If they know Christ, then certainly they ARE Christians. I thought I made this clear enough, saying that they beleived in Him as their savior.
Coop
Christian by definition is one who follows Christ. So yes 144,000 follow the Lamb, they know and follow Christ that would make them 'Christian'. But what sets them apart from others is they are what God promised to do which is to save a remnant of the whole house of Israel 12,000 from each tribe.
I think I've said before here. God sees three groups of people the Jew circumcised in the flesh, the gentile which is to say devil worshiper, pagan. The first two groups are in the same boat without Christ and lost. Thirdly the Church 'the called' which are followers of Christ one elect and all citizens of the commonwealth of Israel.
For someone to claim to be a gentile Christian is the same thing as claiming to be a pagan christian. Or a Jew in the flesh still looking for a sign Christian is crazy you can not be both.
I think I've said before here. God sees three groups of people the Jew circumcised in the flesh, the gentile which is to say devil worshiper, pagan. The first two groups are in the same boat without Christ and lost. Thirdly the Church 'the called' which are followers of Christ one elect and all citizens of the commonwealth of Israel.
For someone to claim to be a gentile Christian is the same thing as claiming to be a pagan christian. Or a Jew in the flesh still looking for a sign Christian is crazy you can not be both.