Are there two millenniums?

[tessiewebb]

In Revelation 20:4 it is written: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Are those who are beheaded the only ones that will live and reign in the millennium, as it is called? Some say this includes those who have "lost their heads" in the sense that they are fully submitted to Jesus, (as in 1 Cor 11:3), others that it means literal beheading as with John the Baptist. (Mt 14:10). According to some reports Paul was beheaded, though it is not recorded in the Bible that he was.

And who is the "they" that sat upon the thrones John saw?

Rev 20:5 says "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection." But then verse 6 says "Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

So it sounds like those that were beheaded lived and reigned with Him a 1000 years and then the ones who lived again after the 1000 year reign reigned with Him a 1000 more. Are there then 2 millennium reigns?

And another thing in this chapter, verse 7-9 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Who are the saints who are on earth at this time after the millennium? If all believers get 'raptured' out of here, who are these saints? It appears they are those that come out of the nations and are not deceived. But, is there scripture to back this up?

 

[reba]

Tess, I have only Strongs to look things up. Is the thousand a literal 1000 years?

as in 365,000 days? Or is the word used to denote a long unknown time period.

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

 

[reba]

Jesus tells us the resurrection is the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus is not saying last days How can there be years after the last day?

 

[tessiewebb]

Jesus tells us the resurrection is the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus is not saying last days How can there be years after the last day?

The last day seems to be the one in Rev 20, when it says "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." So last Day for this earth, I guess.

Rev 20: 11-12 seem to bear this out: And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Mt 25:46 seems to refer to this Judgment day saying: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Yes, as you said, "Jesus tells us the resurrection is the last day." and a good point when you said, "Jesus is not saying last days How can there be years after the last day?" But apparently there are two resurrections, so I'd say the "last day" would have to be after the 2nd resurrection. (see prev post for references to Rev 20 verses.)

 

[reba]

bodily resurrection:

Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


I was dead is sin He saved me. Was your/our salvation a resurrection?

 

[jasoncran]

most of the apostles did teach a chialism but not as taught to day.reba, how does infinity have and end? at the end of the thousand years satan is realised. this is why i do believe in some millenium just not at as taught today.

 

[Sinthesis]

The millennium(s) doesn't represent a literal fixed time period so much as a new beginning.
Did your life begin at birth(conception-whatever) or when you were converted?
Are you saved when converted, or do you have to wait until after your body dies?
When does eternity begin? The last day? Then who's last day?

 

[reba]

Sinthesis,
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
A question i have often asked... When did/does everlasting life begin?

This thread is about 2 millenniums back to topic....

 

[Sinthesis]

Sinthesis,
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
A question i have often asked... When did/does everlasting life begin?

This thread is about 2 millenniums back to topic....

We're on topic. We're both exploring assumptions made in the OP about the meaning of terms. I believe there is a way to look at this where there are an infinite number of millenniums. There is also a legitimate way to look at it where there is just one. Two? If "millennium" means 'a long unknown time period', then why not? A period of a thousand years applies to both the prison term of Satan, and the reign of 'they' with Christ. Is it the exact same 1000yrs? Why/how do 'they' lose their reign after 1000yrs (especially since we know Christ's reign is eternal)? Why are the saints encamped outside the beloved city? Who inhabits the beloved city? These questions keep me up at night.;)

 

[EDEN2004]

Hi tessiewebb, this passage confuses most everyone that reads it lol. I rearranged it a bit to make more sense. Read my rearranged version, then reread the passage and think you will understand.

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I hope that makes sense. The first resurrection took place at Jesus' resurrection.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

All of these people mentioned in Rev 20:4 are the old testament saints which were in Abrahams bosom. They were not allowed into paradise until Jesus died and went to them and ministered to them. (The butler and the baker in the story of Joseph is a foreshadow of this ministry.)

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

All born again people that have died after Jesus death and Resurrection go to be with the Lord immediately upon dying.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

These dead people are not a part of the first resurrection. These people will get new bodies at the same time those that are alive at the rapture get their new bodies.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I believe "The ones that sat upon the thrones" are the church, because judgement was given to them. The church will judge the angels.

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

As for verses 7-9,

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Abraham's seed (born again people) are numerous as the sand of the sea. So the "the camp of the saints" is the church.

Gen_32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

The church is the body of Christ which is the temple of God in the Millennium, notice in verse 9 they "compassed the camp of the saints about", that I believe is talking about the temple (the body of Christ). There are a lot of neat things about the body of Christ, too much to go into now.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Also, the 1000 years is a literal 1000 years.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The millennium is the 7th day, the Sabbath day, a day of rest.

Sorry this is so long, I hope it helps.

 

[tessiewebb]

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. This is the first resurrection.
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I hope that makes sense. The first resurrection took place at Jesus' resurrection.

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

All of these people mentioned in Rev 20:4 are the old testament saints which were in Abrahams bosom. They were not allowed into paradise until Jesus died and went to them and ministered to them. (The butler and the baker in the story of Joseph is a foreshadow of this ministry.)

Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

All born again people that have died after Jesus death and Resurrection go to be with the Lord immediately upon dying.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

These dead people are not a part of the first resurrection. These people will get new bodies at the same time those that are alive at the rapture get their new bodies.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

I believe "The ones that sat upon the thrones" are the church, because judgement was given to them. The church will judge the angels.

1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

As for verses 7-9,

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Abraham's seed (born again people) are numerous as the sand of the sea. So the "the camp of the saints" is the church.

Gen_32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

The church is the body of Christ which is the temple of God in the Millennium, notice in verse 9 they "compassed the camp of the saints about", that I believe is talking about the temple (the body of Christ). There are a lot of neat things about the body of Christ, too much to go into now.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Also, the 1000 years is a literal 1000 years.

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The millennium is the 7th day, the Sabbath day, a day of rest.

Sorry this is so long, I hope it helps.

Okay. You say "This is the first resurrection." In the rearrangement this follows the 'thrones" and the "beheaded" ones. Appears you are saying these are the ones that came out of the grave when Jesus did and is the first resurrection. But then if that is true, the millennium continues to our day? Romans 5:17 says "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)" This "reign" is a verb in the present tense. This is explained in the BlueLetterBible parsing info as: "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time". (The "shall reign" is a misinterpretation based on this, because "shall" implies it is in the future so it should read "are reigning")

Even so, if this is true and it sounds as if it is when you read Rom 5:17, and the millennium does continue indefinitely as shown by God's years and days measurement you quoted, then when is the end of it? If the 2nd death has no power over these resurrected ones (Rev 20:6) who have had part in the first resurrection then those who came out of the grave with Jesus are still among us?

Interesting. I want to address the rest of your post also but time prohibits. Thank you for this response.

 

[EDEN2004]

Okay. You say "This is the first resurrection." In the rearrangement this follows the 'thrones" and the "beheaded" ones. Appears you are saying these are the ones that came out of the grave when Jesus did and is the first resurrection. But then if that is true, the millennium continues to our day? Romans 5:17 says "For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)" This "reign" is a verb in the present tense. This is explained in the BlueLetterBible parsing info as: "The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time". (The "shall reign" is a misinterpretation based on this, because "shall" implies it is in the future so it should read "are reigning")

Even so, if this is true and it sounds as if it is when you read Rom 5:17, and the millennium does continue indefinitely as shown by God's years and days measurement you quoted, then when is the end of it? If the 2nd death has no power over these resurrected ones (Rev 20:6) who have had part in the first resurrection then those who came out of the grave with Jesus are still among us?

Interesting. I want to address the rest of your post also but time prohibits. Thank you for this response.

The millennium didn't start at the first resurrection. The people of that resurrection are in Paradise. I don't know where paradise is but I assume it is heaven, these people are still in paradise today. They will return with Jesus at the second coming which then starts the millennium. Remember Jesus returns with 10000's of his saints.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

10 represents the 10 commandments (old testament), 1000 represents the millennium (1000 year reign). 10,000's represents the old testament saints at the millennium.

Most people think this is talking about the church, but it is not, the church is the body of Christ which is the temple of God. We are the temple of God.

1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

There are 2 resurrections one is the one we have been talking about resurrection to life, the other is the resurrection for judgement.

Act 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

 

[tessiewebb]

The millennium didn't start at the first resurrection. The people of that resurrection are in Paradise. I don't know where paradise is but I assume it is heaven, these people are still in paradise today. They will return with Jesus at the second coming which then starts the millennium. Remember Jesus returns with 10000's of his saints.

How do you say they are in Paradise? Did they die again? If so, is that not the "second death"? What are you using as reference to say the millennium starts when Jesus comes back? By reference I mean scriptures. (BTW, I agree that the "clouds" in which Jesus is said to be coming at His return are the 10000s of His saints. I think you agree that Scripture points to those saints as being ones who died in Him rather than the 'raptured', as some say.)

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

You indicated a verse that said the just and the unjust are all judged and they are judged "according to their works" as in the verse in Rev I copied form your post. Yes, however, how do you think this relates to the millennium(s)?

 

[D4Christ]

tessieweb,

You asked are there 2 millenniums? No.

Please read Revelation Commentary. This document breaks down revelation chapter by chapter and verse by verse. It is a good place to start when trying to understand Revelation.

Once you have done that I would encourage you to read the Old Testatment books that discuss the future reign of Christ (or David as they refer to Him). Books like Zechariah, Zephaniah, etc.

Blessings,
Dee

 

[tessiewebb]

The millennium didn't start at the first resurrection. The people of that resurrection are in Paradise.

Sorry, Eden, to pick out one statement from your text. I just don't have the timeor energy to go through the whole thing right now.

Please tell me how they can be in "Paradise" if they are not dead. If they are dead, then that is the 2nd time they have died, correct? The second death as recorded in Rev means they can be hurt by it. Since the Gospel says they were "saints", how is it that they had to face the 2nd death?

 

[EDEN2004]

Sorry, Eden, to pick out one statement from your text. I just don't have the timeor energy to go through the whole thing right now.

Please tell me how they can be in "Paradise" if they are not dead. If they are dead, then that is the 2nd time they have died, correct? The second death as recorded in Rev means they can be hurt by it. Since the Gospel says they were "saints", how is it that they had to face the 2nd death?

No problem Tess, I know what you mean about time and energy, we have been putting new floors in our house this week and I am exhausted. I will pick up our conversation after I recover from these floors...;)

 

[John 8:32]

Tess, I have only Strongs to look things up. Is the thousand a literal 1000 years?

as in 365,000 days? Or is the word used to denote a long unknown time period.

G5507
χίλιοι
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.

Why would it not mean 1000?

Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Act 4:4 Howbeit many of them which heard the word believed; and the number of the men was about five thousand.

Act 19:19 Many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men: and they counted the price of them, and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver.

Act 21:38 Art not thou that Egyptian, which before these days madest an uproar, and leddest out into the wilderness four thousand men that were murderers?

Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.

1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

etc.

We do not have any problem here understanding that the word means thousand (or variations of the word mean a definite number), why do we have a problem with the same word meaning 1000 years in the Millenium?

 

[John 8:32]

Jesus tells us the resurrection is the last day.

Joh 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jesus is not saying last days How can there be years after the last day?

It is also inspired scripture that there is more than one resurrection...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is described in verse 4, yet the rest of the dead did not live again until after the 1000 years.

 

[reba]

Quick reply John,, the thousands you listed have a specific number in front of them

The argument is not with me but with Strongs..

I had a more complete answer half way typed up an the computer went coo coo.

I am trying to muster up get the guts to reload windows myself :eeeekkk

 

[Elijah674]

It is also inspired scripture that there is more than one resurrection...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection is described in verse 4, yet the rest of the dead did not live again until after the 1000 years.

True. And we are told that these are seperated for what purpose?